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People say assault is screwed in 6th. Is assault completely dead? Post your lists here!

1500-2000 points, single FoC please.

Use this as a barometer of effectiveness:

Ravenwing Assault

1500pts
Sammael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Staff
5-man RCS, Banner of Fortitude
5-man RCS, Ravenwing Standard

3-man RAS, Meltagun
3-man RAS, Meltagun

5-man RWBK
5-man RWBK
Darkshroud.

Turn one: scout 12" and Turbo Boost everyone into range for a Turn 2 charge. Your enemy has a turn to shoot you. Everything in your army has a 2+ cover save, T5 and 5+ FNP. In your turn, you assault ignoring terrain, then auto-hit and run and charge again at the end of their turn. Potential output: roughly 80 Str 5 Rending attacks + 20 HoW, not counting characters.

Of the main "assault armies" We get: Orks, Daemons, Nids, WraithCronz, Bloood Angels and rarely SW or GK (the last two are usually focused on mid shooting though.)

Of these, Daemons and Nids are most competitive. However as a Bug player I don't focus on assault as much, just a few Ymgarls. Of course I could if I wanted, with 30 Ym.Stealers and Trygons and Flyrants.

Daemons are actually a good assault army, and competitive, and their competitive lists are assault. Nids are good, and assault, but its no longer their best thing. They're still better than most. Orks are awful, so I'd say the best assault list is Khorne dog spam with Thirsters

Invisible beast pack is nasty (though Tau are going to put an end to it).

Any Daemon unit with Forewarningboding + Grimoire of True Names (especially Khorne Dogs, Seekers, Crushers or Screamers).

I'd probably give the nod to Daemons, though unfortunately their shooting is lackluster and this makes them very susceptible to good bubble wrapping. Tau can do dirty things with OW and I think that will really hurt armies that want go pure assault.

Aside from Daemons/Nids I'd say Orks (Meganobz, Boyz, Bikers) and Crons (Wraiths) will do quite well in assault. You can make some really nasty combos by doing things like 18 Wraiths + CSM Spawn, or CSM + Daemons.

As a benchmark for an assault army that's really not a good example, it gets completely taken apart if it doesn't go first and basically just 30 Marines so can be countered by a huge range of stuff (Tau remove your cover and destroy you, Heldrakes auto win against this army, any pie plates will hurt you (even if they don't ignore cover, your army is going to be clustered around that Darkshroud). Imo the benchmark for an assault army is 15 Wraiths and 2 D Lords, if you can fight that then you are worth considering.

The reality is that armies that purely focus on assault do not do well in this edition, armies that focus on board control do well (which usually rely on assault threat to get that control) but that isn't quite the same thing. Nids, Wraithwing and to some extent Orks and Guard Powerblobs have good assault ability but its not 'ram it down their throat' assault, they have the numbers/durability + mobility to sit in the midfield and dictate the flow of a game which is much much more powerful. Daemons and Chaos are probably the closest to pure assault armies if built that way, Daemons with big units of Fleshhounds and Chaos with 3 units of Spawn + follow up units both just push into your face as fast as possible.

Yeah, I agree with you on board control vs pure assault.

Daemons tabled me with a single unit of crushers; 3 heralds and 3 crushers cruising around with 2++ rerollable. Couldn't shoot em down, couldn't run away, couldn't touch them in assault.

How is he getting a 2++ re-rollable? Daemons don't have Fortune and only Tzeentch re-roll 1's for saves (or get access to the Divination power that lets you re-roll for a single model), and I'm not sure how Khorne daemons can get a 2++ in the first place (Grimore is +1 or +2 right?).

I'd actually say that Orks are a bit better than Tyranids in assault as far as troops go. Our better intitiative is meaningless in the face of a total lack of grenades and omniprevalent cover. Also a Boyz' superior toughness lets him weather overwatch a bit better than Gaunts, and he gets furious charge for free. Nobz are just plain more cost efficient than Warriors and Biker nobz can get into face smashing range ridiculously fast. We do have TMCs to tip things in our favor though, and whereas Gazghkull can only have his 2++ save for so long, the Swarmlord can keep on getting Iron Arm and Endurance as long as he can keep on passing leadership checks.

Swarmy with Iron Arm and Warp Speed in my tests, has face rolled everything in the game when he rolls 3s. Even VASTLY more expensive units like the uber daemons and biotitans have lost assaults to him. Even Draigo with all his anti-psyker goodies still loses out to a hulked out swarmlord (having an inferior WS and being forced to reroll his 3++ helps Swarmy out tremendously). 6th Edition has been very, very good to the Swarmlord now that a few lucky rolls can eliminate the primary weaknesses he had in 5th.

That list is a horrific example as far as Assault's concerned. It's *REALLY* good for speed to cover the board and for close range firepower, but that's exactly why you don't want them getting bogged down in combat.

Daemons, Orks and Tyranids are all still great in assault - largely because they can bring enough bodies to make it across the board, but for the former, also because they just got a bunch of new toys to play with...

 Super Ready wrote:
you don't want them getting bogged down in combat..

I thought all RW units had Hit 'n' run.

 Super Ready wrote:
That list is a horrific example as far as Assault's concerned. It's *REALLY* good for speed to cover the board and for close range firepower, but that's exactly why you don't want them getting bogged down in combat.

Daemons, Orks and Tyranids are all still great in assault - largely because they can bring enough bodies to make it across the board, but for the former, also because they just got a bunch of new toys to play with...

Also, the new rules are a lot kinder to our MCs, though they did hit the squishies pretty bad.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I thought all RW units had Hit 'n' run.

Yes, but it's not guaranteed. In fact, with Ravenwing you have the same chance of failing it as you do your power armour saves - not exactly something to rely on regularly. As a handy trick now and again when things go wrong, it's useful.
As Ravenwing, you only want to charge into combat in two situations - either you're assured of victory in one turn, or there's nothing nearby to counter-charge.

I'm having a blast playing melee based orks

Powerguy wrote:
How is he getting a 2++ re-rollable? Daemons don't have Fortune and only Tzeentch re-roll 1's for saves (or get access to the Divination power that lets you re-roll for a single model), and I'm not sure how Khorne daemons can get a 2++ in the first place (Grimore is +1 or +2 right?).

Greater reward for re-roll invulns + grimoire trickery. Place that model nearest opponent, profit.

 LValx wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
How is he getting a 2++ re-rollable? Daemons don't have Fortune and only Tzeentch re-roll 1's for saves (or get access to the Divination power that lets you re-roll for a single model), and I'm not sure how Khorne daemons can get a 2++ in the first place (Grimore is +1 or +2 right?).

Greater reward for re-roll invulns + grimoire trickery. Place that model nearest opponent, profit.

Then you should get +2 to invul with reroll, ergo, usually 3++ with reroll not 2++

SlyasR wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
How is he getting a 2++ re-rollable? Daemons don't have Fortune and only Tzeentch re-roll 1's for saves (or get access to the Divination power that lets you re-roll for a single model), and I'm not sure how Khorne daemons can get a 2++ in the first place (Grimore is +1 or +2 right?).

Greater reward for re-roll invulns + grimoire trickery. Place that model nearest opponent, profit.

Then you should get +2 to invul with reroll, ergo, usually 3++ with reroll not 2++

Heres my list:
3x Herald of Khorne - All Jugger, all have 1 greater reward and 2 have lesser rewards
3x Bloodcrusher - 1 Hunter with Lesser
Fateweaver
LVL3 Tzeentch herald with exalted
LVL3 CSM Sorcerer

Basically I use my 4 rolls on Divination to attempt to get Forewarning + Grimoire on Crushers for 2++. I get 3 Greater rolls for a 50/50 at the reroll invulns. Then I use the remaining Fateweaver Bio/Tel and CSM Sorcerer rolls to either get Invis or Endurance depending on my opponent. I've gotten ~10 or so games in with it and pretty much always end up with absurdly durable Crushers.

I would say, just considering Assault, would be multiple large DE BeastPacks. The BMs have tolerable TL poison shots. I'll even buck the "trend" and say Clawed Fiends have a use too.

Have a 2nd BeastPack with 4 BMs and 4 Clawed Fiends, oh hey, T5 (not worth a crap against IG pies, or if they didn't get the 4++ save from Divination)

Also, since BMs are all characters, no wasting beasts on Sergeants or Exarchs or whatever...

For a pure assault army, I'd have to go with daemons as the best there is currently, especially when buffed up by psychic powers.

 jy2 wrote:
For a pure assault army, I'd have to go with daemons as the best there is currently, especially when buffed up by psychic powers.

Would agree, there hasnt been much that has gone toe to toe with my daemons, yet to face GK's or Eldar though (still seeking those elusive eldar players!). I am thinking of doing a new daemon list, focusing on more troops and heralds for buffs

The dual herald pinkstar with forewarning and grimourie has pissed a few of my opponents off lately!, mainly because by then my DP's and LoC are in assault, the small horror squads are hiding and these bad boys are sitting pretty in the middle of the board saying come at me bro!, all well and good until my grimoure herald perils on his last wound :(

 LValx wrote:

SlyasR wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
How is he getting a 2++ re-rollable? Daemons don't have Fortune and only Tzeentch re-roll 1's for saves (or get access to the Divination power that lets you re-roll for a single model), and I'm not sure how Khorne daemons can get a 2++ in the first place (Grimore is +1 or +2 right?).

Greater reward for re-roll invulns + grimoire trickery. Place that model nearest opponent, profit.

Then you should get +2 to invul with reroll, ergo, usually 3++ with reroll not 2++

Heres my list:
3x Herald of Khorne - All Jugger, all have 1 greater reward and 2 have lesser rewards
3x Bloodcrusher - 1 Hunter with Lesser
Fateweaver
LVL3 Tzeentch herald with exalted
LVL3 CSM Sorcerer

Basically I use my 4 rolls on Divination to attempt to get Forewarning + Grimoire on Crushers for 2++. I get 3 Greater rolls for a 50/50 at the reroll invulns. Then I use the remaining Fateweaver Bio/Tel and CSM Sorcerer rolls to either get Invis or Endurance depending on my opponent. I've gotten ~10 or so games in with it and pretty much always end up with absurdly durable Crushers.

Is that about 900 points supporting... one unit of Bloodcrushers?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 LValx wrote:

SlyasR wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
How is he getting a 2++ re-rollable? Daemons don't have Fortune and only Tzeentch re-roll 1's for saves (or get access to the Divination power that lets you re-roll for a single model), and I'm not sure how Khorne daemons can get a 2++ in the first place (Grimore is +1 or +2 right?).

Greater reward for re-roll invulns + grimoire trickery. Place that model nearest opponent, profit.

Then you should get +2 to invul with reroll, ergo, usually 3++ with reroll not 2++

Heres my list:
3x Herald of Khorne - All Jugger, all have 1 greater reward and 2 have lesser rewards
3x Bloodcrusher - 1 Hunter with Lesser
Fateweaver
LVL3 Tzeentch herald with exalted
LVL3 CSM Sorcerer

Basically I use my 4 rolls on Divination to attempt to get Forewarning + Grimoire on Crushers for 2++. I get 3 Greater rolls for a 50/50 at the reroll invulns. Then I use the remaining Fateweaver Bio/Tel and CSM Sorcerer rolls to either get Invis or Endurance depending on my opponent. I've gotten ~10 or so games in with it and pretty much always end up with absurdly durable Crushers.

Is that about 900 points supporting... one unit of Bloodcrushers?

Haha, yes and no. I end up getting buffs that I can just throw around to all my units. By no means a super competitive list due to it being susceptible to randomness. But i'll say that i've had some pretty good success and a good time playing it. At one point my 6 Crushers beat up on 16 Wraiths + 2 D.Lords. It took the whole game but my Crushers killed all of the models..

jifel wrote:Of the main "assault armies" We get: Orks, Daemons, Nids, WraithCronz, Bloood Angels and rarely SW or GK (the last two are usually focused on mid shooting though.)

Of these, Daemons and Nids are most competitive. However as a Bug player I don't focus on assault as much, just a few Ymgarls. Of course I could if I wanted, with 30 Ym.Stealers and Trygons and Flyrants.

Daemons are actually a good assault army, and competitive, and their competitive lists are assault. Nids are good, and assault, but its no longer their best thing. They're still better than most. Orks are awful, so I'd say the best assault list is Khorne dog spam with Thirsters

Could you post a viable Tyranid assault army? Dual CC Flyrants with 3x Ymagrls and Gaunts in spores and Mawlocs/Trygons?

LValx wrote:Invisible beast pack is nasty (though Tau are going to put an end to it).

Any Daemon unit with Forewarningboding + Grimoire of True Names (especially Khorne Dogs, Seekers, Crushers or Screamers).

I'd probably give the nod to Daemons, though unfortunately their shooting is lackluster and this makes them very susceptible to good bubble wrapping. Tau can do dirty things with OW and I think that will really hurt armies that want go pure assault.

Aside from Daemons/Nids I'd say Orks (Meganobz, Boyz, Bikers) and Crons (Wraiths) will do quite well in assault. You can make some really nasty combos by doing things like 18 Wraiths + CSM Spawn, or CSM + Daemons.

Beast pack is quite strong, backed up by Ravager/Venom spam.

Necron Assault is probably the strongest, 18x Wraiths with 2x Destroyer Lords and Royal Court... hmm.

Powerguy wrote:As a benchmark for an assault army that's really not a good example, it gets completely taken apart if it doesn't go first and basically just 30 Marines so can be countered by a huge range of stuff (Tau remove your cover and destroy you, Heldrakes auto win against this army, any pie plates will hurt you (even if they don't ignore cover, your army is going to be clustered around that Darkshroud). Imo the benchmark for an assault army is 15 Wraiths and 2 D Lords, if you can fight that then you are worth considering.

The reality is that armies that purely focus on assault do not do well in this edition, armies that focus on board control do well (which usually rely on assault threat to get that control) but that isn't quite the same thing. Nids, Wraithwing and to some extent Orks and Guard Powerblobs have good assault ability but its not 'ram it down their throat' assault, they have the numbers/durability + mobility to sit in the midfield and dictate the flow of a game which is much much more powerful. Daemons and Chaos are probably the closest to pure assault armies if built that way, Daemons with big units of Fleshhounds and Chaos with 3 units of Spawn + follow up units both just push into your face as fast as possible.

Not necessarily, you can hover out of range in turn one and still turbo boost for a turn two assault or scout forward, hope for the best and first turn assault if you go second. It's not basically 30 Marines, its' 30 T5 marines with FNP and a possible 2+ cover. You don't cluster around the Darkshroud, you just need one model within 6" of it. This list will absolutely hose the Wraith/Dlord list, if you were wondering. T3 Wraiths get insta-deathed by Black Knight plasma, move slower so you can't get the charge off, and can't lock them in combat.

Tau get a single turn of shooting, and they'd better hope to kill most of the army because it's probably the last turn of shooting they'll get. Helldrakes don't auto win, because everything you have will be in CC in turn two, and they wound on a 3+ and you still get FNP. Horde assault armies which sit in midfield tend to die horribly to shooty armies, you need to be able to close quickly. They also lose to 18 Wraiths +2 Dlords.

Until you've actually fought Black Knight Rush, don't write it off. It's far deadlier than it seems on paper.

Super Ready wrote:That list is a horrific example as far as Assault's concerned. It's *REALLY* good for speed to cover the board and for close range firepower, but that's exactly why you don't want them getting bogged down in combat.

Daemons, Orks and Tyranids are all still great in assault - largely because they can bring enough bodies to make it across the board, but for the former, also because they just got a bunch of new toys to play with...

You do know how hit and run works, don't you? The Ravenwing Standard allows you to pass hit and run automatically and you roll 4D6 For distance. 4D6 average roll is 12", which is enough to slingshot across the map from one end. You get to charge and shoot every turn as long as the banner is alive.

Super Ready wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I thought all RW units had Hit 'n' run.

Yes, but it's not guaranteed. In fact, with Ravenwing you have the same chance of failing it as you do your power armour saves - not exactly something to rely on regularly. As a handy trick now and again when things go wrong, it's useful.
As Ravenwing, you only want to charge into combat in two situations - either you're assured of victory in one turn, or there's nothing nearby to counter-charge.

It is guaranteed while 12" of the RW banner. And without it's also I5 on Sammael. As Black Knights, you beat the snot out of most things in CC, so you want to be in cc as much as possible.

RancidHate wrote:I would say, just considering Assault, would be multiple large DE BeastPacks. The BMs have tolerable TL poison shots. I'll even buck the "trend" and say Clawed Fiends have a use too.

Have a 2nd BeastPack with 4 BMs and 4 Clawed Fiends, oh hey, T5 (not worth a crap against IG pies, or if they didn't get the 4++ save from Divination)

Also, since BMs are all characters, no wasting beasts on Sergeants or Exarchs or whatever...

Beastpacks are nice, but I have never actually seen anyone running them in the flesh in 15 years of gaming. They're rarer than Pyrovores.

It's certainly not the best, but anything my Templars touch always seems to crumble into dog-gak:

MoS w/ AA, BP, Terminator Honours, PF, Adamantine mantle

EC w/ AAC, NMTO

Crusader squad w/ 8 Initiates, 4 Neophytes, BP+CCW. Meltagun + Power Axe

Crusader squad w/ 8 Initiates, 4 Neophytes, BP+CCW. Meltagun + Power Sword

LRC w/ Dozer blade, searchlight, Smoke Launchers & Blessed Hull

LRC w/ Dozer blade, searchlight, Smoke Launchers & Blessed Hull

Pred Annihilator w/ POTMS, Searchlight & Smoke Launchers

I usually don't have to worry about most forms of AT weapons and the Pred deals with anything overly scary (Hammerheads, Vindicators, etc). The IC's mash up pretty much anything in a challenge and the Crusaders kill most stuff through weight of attacks. And whatever cannot be drowned in CQB has to face ungodly amounts of anti-personnel firepower. The MoS is capable of routing entire squads on his own as it is. 7 attacks against 4+ with rerolls to hit. 6 PF attacks against anything that cannot be killed with the maul.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

jifel wrote:Of the main "assault armies" We get: Orks, Daemons, Nids, WraithCronz, Bloood Angels and rarely SW or GK (the last two are usually focused on mid shooting though.)

Of these, Daemons and Nids are most competitive. However as a Bug player I don't focus on assault as much, just a few Ymgarls. Of course I could if I wanted, with 30 Ym.Stealers and Trygons and Flyrants.

Daemons are actually a good assault army, and competitive, and their competitive lists are assault. Nids are good, and assault, but its no longer their best thing. They're still better than most. Orks are awful, so I'd say the best assault list is Khorne dog spam with Thirsters

Could you post a viable Tyranid assault army? Dual CC Flyrants with 3x Ymagrls and Gaunts in spores and Mawlocs/Trygons?

Flyrant: Devourers, HC
Flyrant: Devourers, OA
2x9 Ymgarls
Doom in Spod
2 Tervigons, Poison/FC, 3 powers
2x10 gants
Trygon, Toxin

Comes a bit short of 1850. Basically, go max Biomancy and hover around cover for turns 1/2, then turn 2 have Flyrants go max forward as reserves come in. Tervigons and gants go full agressive, leave ten behind and throw everything else full speed ahead. Not fully competitive, but will hold its own against most TAC lists. Don't expect to win a GT though.

 jifel wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

jifel wrote:Of the main "assault armies" We get: Orks, Daemons, Nids, WraithCronz, Bloood Angels and rarely SW or GK (the last two are usually focused on mid shooting though.)

Of these, Daemons and Nids are most competitive. However as a Bug player I don't focus on assault as much, just a few Ymgarls. Of course I could if I wanted, with 30 Ym.Stealers and Trygons and Flyrants.

Daemons are actually a good assault army, and competitive, and their competitive lists are assault. Nids are good, and assault, but its no longer their best thing. They're still better than most. Orks are awful, so I'd say the best assault list is Khorne dog spam with Thirsters

Could you post a viable Tyranid assault army? Dual CC Flyrants with 3x Ymagrls and Gaunts in spores and Mawlocs/Trygons?

Flyrant: Devourers, HC
Flyrant: Devourers, OA
2x9 Ymgarls
Doom in Spod
2 Tervigons, Poison/FC, 3 powers
2x10 gants
Trygon, Toxin

Comes a bit short of 1850. Basically, go max Biomancy and hover around cover for turns 1/2, then turn 2 have Flyrants go max forward as reserves come in. Tervigons and gants go full agressive, leave ten behind and throw everything else full speed ahead. Not fully competitive, but will hold its own against most TAC lists. Don't expect to win a GT though.

This isn't an assault army, it's a balanced army with strong assault elements.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 jifel wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

jifel wrote:Of the main "assault armies" We get: Orks, Daemons, Nids, WraithCronz, Bloood Angels and rarely SW or GK (the last two are usually focused on mid shooting though.)

Of these, Daemons and Nids are most competitive. However as a Bug player I don't focus on assault as much, just a few Ymgarls. Of course I could if I wanted, with 30 Ym.Stealers and Trygons and Flyrants.

Daemons are actually a good assault army, and competitive, and their competitive lists are assault. Nids are good, and assault, but its no longer their best thing. They're still better than most. Orks are awful, so I'd say the best assault list is Khorne dog spam with Thirsters

Could you post a viable Tyranid assault army? Dual CC Flyrants with 3x Ymagrls and Gaunts in spores and Mawlocs/Trygons?

Flyrant: Devourers, HC
Flyrant: Devourers, OA
2x9 Ymgarls
Doom in Spod
2 Tervigons, Poison/FC, 3 powers
2x10 gants
Trygon, Toxin

Comes a bit short of 1850. Basically, go max Biomancy and hover around cover for turns 1/2, then turn 2 have Flyrants go max forward as reserves come in. Tervigons and gants go full agressive, leave ten behind and throw everything else full speed ahead. Not fully competitive, but will hold its own against most TAC lists. Don't expect to win a GT though.

This isn't an assault army, it's a balanced army with strong assault elements.

Yes. I'm trying to keep the list reasonably competitive, but making it more Assault based than my normal Nid lists. A "pure" assault list has 0 guns. That would suck beyond all reason. As it is, it's a list that is designed to be played very aggressively, and to get into CC ASAP, which to me makes it an assault list. Even the Flyrants can join in on the fun.