Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes folks, the issue of transportation has reared its ugly head again. So I'm trying to work a list with easy transportation which generally means low model count. Before you say "But Griddlelol! Guard blobs take up a lot of space! There's 50men there!" I have taken this into account and can easily double pack my guardsmen meaning they actually takee up 25 spaces so here goes:

HQ
Logan Grimnar 275

Rune Priest 100

Troops
Wolf Guard Pack (241)
Drop pod
2 TDA WG with combi-plasma
4 PA WG with combi-plasma

Wolf Guard Pack (266)
Drop pod
2 TDA WG with combi-melta
1 TDA WG with Assault cannon
4 PA WG with combi-metla

Wolf Guard Pack (225)
2 TDA WG
2 TDA WG with wolf claw
1 TDA WG with cyclone ML
3 PA WG with storm bolters

Allies
HQ
CCS (70)
Lascannon

Infantry Platoon (320)
PCS
Autocannon

Infantry Squad x4
Meltagun
Autocannon

Nice to see an Assault cannon in there.

every time i look at logan i think his awsome, then i remember i stil need a priest as a second hq which makes the cost go over what i like for this list

What is the third wolf guard unit suppose to do?

It looks like you want to put logan in the alpha strike pod, that will definitly just give away slay the warlord to your opponent, i think he should be dropped mid field and advance with the second wave. First wave deep field drops is what Arjac is for

Well the alpha strike pod is the one with the assault cannon (I should have specified which ones have combi-melta and combi-plasma, I'll update) for tank destruction.

The third squad is basically there for more board presence and as a screen (ironically) for the blob. I'd like another drop pod, but I don't think I could feasibly carry it with me.

I really don't like Arjac, he's far too expensive for what he is. I refuse to add him to a list.

I assume your not very worried about anti air as you really dont have any effective anti air?

I would say a pretty solid list, Only concern would be against any list with lots of ap1-2 but thats pretty big so far in this meta.

What are your initial thoughts on what this list will be doing?

My plan is basically to ignore fliers. The most common: Vendettas will have a hard time doing anything. The drop pods will put things easily within my opponent's minimum 18" move. The only targets they really have are guardsmen, or hover mode - which allows me to kill them.
Heldrakes - well with that many 2+ saves in a squad, I should be able to keep the PA guys in the centre to ignore the AP3 flamer. They shouldn'tt be too much of an issue.

Plasma spam is going to hurt. However, this list has huge alpha strike potential to eliminate any of that before it gets a chance to even fire. There's also the option of just hiding in combat after the initial comib-spooge. I'd really like to fit in another drop pod, but I don't think it's going to happen. Once I've play tested it, I'll probably find that I need that DP. That way Logan can be in CC on turn 2, and the other WG can drop in also.

Needs more Vendettas

Excellent contribution. I'll take note of your mastery in list building and make sure I ask for advice via personal message in future.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Needs more Vendettas

This ^. There is no other reason to take IG as allies. Cut back your infantry platoon to 2 squads and spend the rest on a Vendetta. I dunno what that third WG squad is going to do with out a drop pod.

Did either of you read the title? Or the preamble?

The IG allies also fulfil the role of durable scoring unit which Logan Wing desperately needs. It's the crutch to hold up the other elite, expensive troops.

I read it and I'm not arguing with you that the IG infantry make a durable scoring unit. But 2 squads + 2 command squads is already durable enough. And I'm just saying it would be a better list IMHO if your list had a vendetta. I'm not really intimidated by a handful of WG and Logan when they're only backed up by BS 3 flashlights. You posted it for feedback - we gave it to you.

That said, transporting 2 or 3 drop pods and a vendetta by bus does present problems. But not much more than transporting 50 - 80 infantry models and 1 drop pod. For me anyway, I would never double stack my nicely painted models. but that's me.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Excellent contribution. I'll take note of your mastery in list building and make sure I ask for advice via personal message in future.

Hahahahahahahaha thats good, and what I was thinking.

Yea I already figured you would be able to ignore fliers as you will be in your opponents face fast.

I only see mech guard as a possible problem because even if you pop the transport those special weapons will still be alive and require another squad to get them.

Also are you blobing the infantry squads or no?, If so any way you think you could get a commissar or you think you will be fine?

 Grugknuckle wrote:


That said, transporting 2 or 3 drop pods and a vendetta by bus does present problems. But not much more than transporting 50 - 80 infantry models and 1 drop pod.

Trust me I've tried transporting vendettas, but they're just too big. Infantry sit nicely in foam, in a bag; but I don't have vendetta shaped foam - even if I did, that's half the space taken up by one model. Not even a particularly costly model either.
I'm not looking for the most competitive list, I'm looking for something that can work, but doesn't take up a lot of space. Saying "add vendettas" doesn't really say anything that I didn't already know, or already take into consideration. If there's an issue then address it another way to work within the parameters that I've given.

Other than AA, I'm not entirely sure what a single vendetta would even contribute to this list. It'd be shot out the sky by turn 3 as it's the only aircraft and only AV value on the table. It's possibly the worst option to add to a list like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tankboy145 wrote:


Also are you blobing the infantry squads or no?, If so any way you think you could get a commissar or you think you will be fine?

They're blobbing, but they have a RP for ATSKNF.

Mech guard isn't particularly common any more, however I agree it'd be tough.

 Griddlelol wrote:

I'm not looking for the most competitive list, I'm looking for something that can work, but doesn't take up a lot of space. Saying "add vendettas" doesn't really say anything that I didn't already know, or already take into consideration. If there's an issue then address it another way to work within the parameters that I've given.

There is no way I could have known that you had taken Vendettas into consideration 'based on the parameters you have given'. I offered it as advice because I think it's good advice based on my own experience. You don't want to take any flyers - that's fine. We're offering you free advice and you're returning the favor with attitude. I don't really like your list. I wouldn't play it the way you have it set up. That doesn't mean it's a bad list, or that it won't be fun, or that you shouldn't play it your way. But if you put your list up there and ask for comments, then people are going to comment based on how THEY would change the list.

Now you've asked me if I see an issue with your list, and here it is. I don't see how you are going to be able to attack effectively with only two drop pods and nothing that can really close the distance. That's the problem. Your drop pods - coming in separately - are basically sacrificing their contents. But for the sake of argument, suppose that they are successful. In that case your durable scoring unit (IG platoon) will be either parking on objectives in the rear or walking forward. Either way, their meltaguns are not likely to be useful because they can't effectively close the distance. Hence the need for some kind of transport.

I'm just being honest here. I'm not trying to be a prick. The list as you have put it out there is not optimized to it's potential. IMHO, you should use the Space Wolves for a 'hard hitting get in your face' attacking force and the IG as a 'sit behind the lines and support the forward elements with long range fire' type force. But you haven't equipped your Space Wolves with the means of getting up close and you haven't equipped your IG with the proper weaponry to support them.

Well to start we have no idea what models are left in his collection and then we have no idea if he plans to transport his army in a gym bag or an attache' So really he hasn't left much room for a discussion beyond agreeing with what he has listed as being transport efficient.

Oh yea I forgot where that rune priest was going.

I agreee with an above post that when those pods come down they need to make a significant impact or those termies might get lit up with weight of fire.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Other than AA, I'm not entirely sure what a single vendetta would even contribute to this list. It'd be shot out the sky by turn 3 as it's the only aircraft and only AV value on the table. It's possibly the worst option to add to a list like this.

I forgot to respond to this. Actually, the Vendetta can transport 12 IG dudes and drop them off via Grav chute insertion. So besides providing some AA and a little AT with 3 twin linked lascannons, it also gives you the ability to put a squad of IG right where you want them. And that's something your list needs pretty badly.

 Grugknuckle wrote:


There is no way I could have known that you had taken Vendettas into consideration 'based on the parameters you have given'

Ok then, I'll leave that be. I suppose it wasn't clear that I had no intention of taking large vehicles. However I assumed that the implication that I was trying to keep things from taking up space made it rather obvious I was not going to take one of the largest models out there.

Your drop pods - coming in separately - are basically sacrificing their contents.

I am also concerned about that. However the only way to fix it would be another drop pod. I'll probably end up doing that.

Either way, their meltaguns are not likely to be useful because they can't effectively close the distance.

No true. They're there more for a melta hedge. They prevent AV:14 getting close. I've found it to be an effective tactic rather often.

The list as you have put it out there is not optimized to it's potential. IMHO, you should use the Space Wolves for a 'hard hitting get in your face' attacking force and the IG as a 'sit behind the lines and support the forward elements with long range fire' type force. But you haven't equipped your Space Wolves with the means of getting up close and you haven't equipped your IG with the proper weaponry to support them.

To which the response was "get a vendetta." That's really not going to change much. Whether it can carry a vet squad or not, one vendetta will be blown out the sky very quickly. There's a lot of interceptor out there. Tau, IG and even SM have plenty of interceptor if they're using forge world - which everyone in my meta does.

 Griddlelol wrote:

To which the response was "get a vendetta." That's really not going to change much. Whether it can carry a vet squad or not, one vendetta will be blown out the sky very quickly. There's a lot of interceptor out there. Tau, IG and even SM have plenty of interceptor if they're using forge world - which everyone in my meta does.

You're probably right about that. But keep in mind that Interceptor can shoot at your drop pods too. The only way to make sure that some of them land is to get more of them. Personally, I wouldn't want to be lugging around a bunch of drop pods on a bus either.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

To which the response was "get a vendetta." That's really not going to change much. Whether it can carry a vet squad or not, one vendetta will be blown out the sky very quickly. There's a lot of interceptor out there. Tau, IG and even SM have plenty of interceptor if they're using forge world - which everyone in my meta does.

You're probably right about that. But keep in mind that Interceptor can shoot at your drop pods too. The only way to make sure that some of them land is to get more of them. Personally, I wouldn't want to be lugging around a bunch of drop pods on a bus either.

Doesnt interceptor take place at the end of the movement phase? in which the pod has already landed and dropped off its contents, in which I could care less if something wastes its turn shooting a pod.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

To which the response was "get a vendetta." That's really not going to change much. Whether it can carry a vet squad or not, one vendetta will be blown out the sky very quickly. There's a lot of interceptor out there. Tau, IG and even SM have plenty of interceptor if they're using forge world - which everyone in my meta does.

You're probably right about that. But keep in mind that Interceptor can shoot at your drop pods too. The only way to make sure that some of them land is to get more of them. Personally, I wouldn't want to be lugging around a bunch of drop pods on a bus either.

Doesnt interceptor take place at the end of the movement phase? in which the pod has already landed and dropped off its contents, in which I could care less if something wastes its turn shooting a pod.

This is correct. The drop pod will be on the ground, having vomitted the wolves out prior to being shot to pieces. A vendetta will be floating in the air asking for quad guns, battlesuits, etc. to give it a new home in pieces on the ground.

Interceptor allows you to shoot at units arriving from reserve. Since shooting from interceptor goes off at the end of the movement phase, a quad gun may shoot at the wolves that just came out of the pod. They have just arrived from reserve and are therefore a valid target (assuming there is LOS and so on).

So my comment stands. If you only land one drop pod per turn, the contents of those pods are probably going to eat four twin linked S7 AP4 shots from a quad gun before they can shoot their combi-weapons. You could lose a model or two before you get to shoot and you can't assault that turn. On your opponents next turn, he'll probably concentrate everything he has on that one unit that's close to him and that unit will either die or become ineffective before it can really do anything meaningful. On the next turn when your next pod comes in, the process starts all over again. At least the vendetta has the advantage that ONLY the skyfire / interceptor stuff can shoot with full ballistic skill.

Thus if you really want to pull off a drop pod logan-wing, you're going to need more than 2 pods. However, the OP can't really carry more than 2 pods (or any 2 vehicles) on the bus. That leads me to believe that maybe the Logan-wing idea isn't the best choice for his needs. Or at least not a drop pod Logan wing. I think a gun line might be a better option. Dunno, we'll have to let him think about it.

I agree with what you're saying, and drop pods do get hurt by interceptor too, but less so with some strategic placement and 2+ saves taking wounds. 3 is going to be a minimum, but as you said if I'm bothering to carry 3 drop pods, then I might as well change everything and revert back to one of my older lists.

So how would you run this list without pods? The only way I can see a Logan wing working is with pods. Would a higher model count be better? Although that just means more turns to get shot at...
I'm not convinced that a Logan-wing gunline would work. However GK pull it off so there may be some potential. However I have no idea what that list would look like.

I could try to build a list. What kind of models do you have available to you? I would need to get an idea of this before I could really dial in a list.

I think the best thing about the list you've given is the gigantic blob of IG actually. The heavy weapons provide a nice foundation for a gun-line - which is probably what made me think about that. In fact, with vehicles (I know I know) this list would be pretty tough. But...moving on...I think you should keep your IG blob, but if you're going to be camping on objectives then maybe give the infantry squads plasmaguns instead of melta. So that they can reach 24" away.

What to do with the Space Wolves? I have a couple ideas. But they're just ideas and I don't know what models you have. They all involve a higher model count.

Here's the first thing I came up with..

and of course there is always this...


I'm not a Logan wing type guy, but I remember one such list that relied on Long Fangs. Logan can make them relentless. You could possible do something with that.

The issue is that both of those are rather standard lists and I don't think either work well without transports.
Maybe I'm trying to do the impossible, and instead I should focus on altering my transportation equipment, rather than altering my list to something totally ineffective.
I just really dislike spending money on battlefoam.

Here is my suggestion, get a bigger rolly travel case that fits more dudes!

maybe get two? you got two hands for rollin OR a bag that sits on top of the rolly bag.

if you go crazy you can get two rolly bags with 2 supporting bags that sit on top.

I found a cool RIDICILIOUS PINK ONE!!!

http://theshoppersguide.weebly.com/rolling-makeup-case.html

Check out my Loganwing Wolfguard terminators in my gallery!!

 Pellegrino wrote:
Check out my Loganwing Wolfguard terminators in my gallery!!

they look pimp dude!! I love the shields!!!

want to paint my stuff? your a good painter!!

Theorius wrote:

 Pellegrino wrote:
Check out my Loganwing Wolfguard terminators in my gallery!!

they look pimp dude!! I love the shields!!!

want to paint my stuff? your a good painter!!

Haha.. Thanks bro!
I'm an ok painter i guess.

Grugknuckle wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Needs more Vendettas

This ^. There is no other reason to take IG as allies. Cut back your infantry platoon to 2 squads and spend the rest on a Vendetta. I dunno what that third WG squad is going to do with out a drop pod.

Transportation arguments aside (Vendettas are big!), there are plenty of reasons to take IG allies without resorting to Vendettas. Its just that the Vendetta plugs an obvious hole in the Space Wolf Army List.

Griddlelol wrote:My plan is basically to ignore fliers. The most common: Vendettas will have a hard time doing anything. The drop pods will put things easily within my opponent's minimum 18" move. The only targets they really have are guardsmen, or hover mode - which allows me to kill them.
Heldrakes - well with that many 2+ saves in a squad, I should be able to keep the PA guys in the centre to ignore the AP3 flamer. They shouldn'tt be too much of an issue.

Plasma spam is going to hurt. However, this list has huge alpha strike potential to eliminate any of that before it gets a chance to even fire. There's also the option of just hiding in combat after the initial comib-spooge. I'd really like to fit in another drop pod, but I don't think it's going to happen. Once I've play tested it, I'll probably find that I need that DP. That way Logan can be in CC on turn 2, and the other WG can drop in also.

Your game plan is viable. I've been able to largely ignore Flyers thanks to Drop Pods and getting in close. Vector Strikes are unpleasant, but unless you are facing 3 Helldrakes it isn't devastating. And if you are facing 3 Helldrakes, that's ~400 points not spent on Troops so you know what to focus on (like you should be anyways).

Griddlelol wrote:HQ
Logan Grimnar 275

Rune Priest 100

Troops
Wolf Guard Pack (241)
Drop pod
2 TDA WG with combi-plasma
4 PA WG with combi-plasma

Wolf Guard Pack (266)
Drop pod
2 TDA WG with combi-melta
1 TDA WG with Assault cannon
4 PA WG with combi-metla

Wolf Guard Pack (225)
2 TDA WG
2 TDA WG with wolf claw
1 TDA WG with cyclone ML
3 PA WG with storm bolters

Allies
HQ
CCS (70)
Lascannon

Infantry Platoon (320)
PCS
Autocannon

Infantry Squad x4
Meltagun
Autocannon

My personal opinion is every 5th Wolf Guard should be carrying an Assault Cannon. I get cranky when I can't find the points for it. I also strongly believe in Wolf Claws for them as well. Ultimately, the real strength of Wolf Guard troops is in MSU though. You want to take as many Heavy Weapons as possible. Special Weapons are nice, but too many of them means that every casualty is costing you too much more.

Sure, you could spend 240 points on 5 Wolf Guard all in TDA with Combi-Plasma/Wolf Claws and an Assault Cannon/Cyclone Missile Launcher. Its like 1440 points to max out your FOC. Or...

Wolf Guard Pack - 155 points
x1 w/ Bolter, Mark of the Wulfen
x3 w/ Bolter
x1 w/ TDA, Assault Cannon, Wolf Claw

They are 190 points with the Drop Pod, and the Assault Cannon can do quite a lot of damage more reliably and at greater range. Add a few more naked Wolf Guard with Bolters and you can get to 209 points and have 8 bodies in the pack, 6 easily expendable. That makes them 244 points with a Drop Pod.

If your heart is set on mass Plasma in an Alpha Strike, +20 points to give the remaining 4 Wolf Guard Combi-Plasma still makes them only 210 points. If you can free up 108 points (or 28 points if you don't go ape with the Combi-Plasma) you can take a 4th Wolf Guard pack then. Have 3 come in on Turn 1 and another later on to tip the balance in your favor wherever you are weak.

Of course, replacing the Assault Cannons with CML and removing the Drop Pods would get you more bodies. But then most Loganwing lists are made for 5th edition. You may want to treat it akin to playing a Grey Knight list, but your 5 man Terminators cost 165 base instead of 200 and you pay more for Hammers.

Anyways, your IG allies can hold your home objectives. I'd kit them out differently myself. All Flamers on the PCS and instead of Meltaguns for starters. Would normally try to get 4 Plasma Guns on the CCS, but then I'd normally try to spend 140 on a Vendetta w/ Heavy Bolters for the PCS.