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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 20:44:29
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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What makes a good sport ?
I mean in terms if being a good sporting player in a miniatures game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 21:13:56
Subject: Re:Sportsmanship..
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Douglas Bader
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1) Don't cheat.
2) Don't be a rules lawyer (borderline cheating).
3) Don't brag obnoxiously when you win or tell your opponent how much they suck.
4) Don't whine obnoxiously when you lose and blame everything but yourself.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 21:18:09
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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For a rather depressing number of people it seems to be:
- Agree with all of my interpretations of the rules
and
- Let me do stuff that the rules don't necessarily allow
For most people, though, it's the same as for any other competitive activity: Play the game, and don't be a jerk about it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 21:46:28
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Just curious,
I have run a number of tournaments and I think ( insaniak ) that your analysis is about fitting.
It seems that unless the player smashes his opponenet , then the winner gets bombed for poor sportsmanship.
I have come up with a system of questions to ask at the end of the game to judge sportsmanship. Rather than just asking " How much fun was this guy to play", we ask specific questions...
Did your opponent roll his dice in front of you?
If there was a rules disagreement was it handled in a reasonable fashion?
Did your opponent let you "retro" a bad move?
Did your opponent "Fast roll"his dice?
Did your opponent "fudge" rules?
questions like that give us ( the judges ) a better idea of what kind of a player this guy was than " How much fun was this guy?"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 21:54:37
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Douglas Bader
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FarseerAndyMan wrote:I have come up with a system of questions to ask at the end of the game to judge sportsmanship.
Here's a better system: don't have sportsmanship scores. If someone has a behavior problem just remove them from the event.
Did your opponent let you "retro" a bad move?
Why should anyone let an opponent take back a bad decision? And why should failure to allow this have any effect on a sportsmanship score?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 22:10:49
Subject: Re:Sportsmanship..
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Sister Vastly Superior
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What makes a good sport? The same thing that makes a good sport in any in any other kind of competitive activity.
Be gracious in defeat and humbled in victory.
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Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Nekro, Shadowrun Returns, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, Planetary Annihilation, Project Eternity, Distance, Dreamfall Chapters, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Consortium, Divinity: Original Sin, Smart Guys, Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, Armikrog, Massive Chalice, Satellite Reign, Cthulhu Wars, Warmachine: Tactics, Game Loading: Rise Of The Indies, Indie Statik, Awesomenauts: Starstorm, Cosmic Star Heroine, THE LONG DARK, The Mandate, Stasis, Hand of Fate, Upcycled Machined Dice, Legend of Grimrock: The Series, Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians, Cyberpunk Soundtracks, Darkest Dungeon, Starcrawlers
I have a KickStarter problem. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 22:25:08
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Retro-- "Those guys needed to roll 2d6 when they charge through difficult terrain...you rolled 3d6, go ahead and roll again."
Thats what i meant, not giving the guy a chance to move his figs after he foolishly put them in a bad spot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 22:26:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 22:25:41
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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First two replies pretty much nailed it.
I'll also say that I don't subscribe to the theory that playing to win automatically makes you a bad sport. If one person wants to use a "fluffy" list that isn't necessarily hard to beat and the other prefers to go with substance over style the two aren't incompatible and the game won't automatically be a disaster. Attitude is everything.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 22:26:05
Driven away from WH40K by rules bloat and the expense of keeping up, now interested in smaller model count games and anything with nifty mechanics. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/06 22:29:53
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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I agree Fezman-- playing to win doesnt make you a bad sport automatically.
And attitude does make a HUGE difference.
Anyone else have any ideas?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 00:04:47
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FarseerAndyMan wrote:I agree Fezman-- playing to win doesnt make you a bad sport automatically.
And attitude does make a HUGE difference.
Anyone else have any ideas?
I brought up something similar a long time ago. The quote in my sig sums up my feelings on sports scores. I got docked once on sports, and comp which is an entirely different issue, because I tabled an opponent. I got dinged on sports for asking my opponent to p
Ay faster so we could get past turn 2. Sports scores have no place, if you're a problem you get tossed otherwise don't play, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. In other words if you can't handle the competition stay out of tournaments.
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Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 00:16:36
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Pass/fail is the best, I think at this point. Combined with favorite opponent votes. I've got a link to a good system in my signature.
I used to do the concrete questions* thing at tournaments I ran a few years ago. It's not bad. I like that it communicates the kind of things you expect of players.
(Here's a link to the rules I used to use in those events, with those questions I used to use:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/153188.page#153189)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 00:23:23
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 06:22:51
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Slippery Scout Biker
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Don't do what someone did to me in a tournament! The premise was on finding your most sporting player to play against over the weekend and rewarding said player with your 'my favourite player to play against' label. After each game you scored them on a range of things then handed this over to the judges at the end to add up who was most sporting.
In my last game my opponent handed in his score sheet to a judge before we had even started! He announced the last gamer had been the most sporting player he had played against all weekend and he wanted to give him the full score.
Suffice to say I was less than pleased and it tarnished the whole game for me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 07:57:06
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Fixture of Dakka
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I am a Mirror, if my opponent is relaxed and not taking it seriously than we have a fun game, "do you think he is under the template?" sure just roll, but if my opponent is a rule Nazi, then i will adapt and give him a dose of his own medicine!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 13:58:57
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Based on how I've seen sportsmanship scored.
Don't whine and be cheerful while taking your defeat with a fluffy army.
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CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 14:20:06
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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Okay, hold on. Is your name actually Ragnar Arneson?
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Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:Cue all the people saying "This is the last straw! Now I'm only going to buy a little bit every now and then!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 14:33:13
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Regular Dakkanaut
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This guys name is METAL!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 18:48:16
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Thanks for the feedback guys!!
I think we can all agree -- The type of Tournament being run kinda spells out the sportsmanship expectations..
Going to a RTT style tournament , expect to see fluffy armies and gamers.
Going to a GT style tournament, expect to see cheese and rules lawyers.
I agree also that in some types of tournaments sportsmanship shouldnt even be applied as a score towards the win -- 'Ard Boys
Just some thoughts-- any one have any other ideas?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 18:50:59
Subject: Re:Sportsmanship..
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Peregrine wrote:1) Don't cheat.
2) Don't be a rules lawyer (borderline cheating).
3) Don't brag obnoxiously when you win or tell your opponent how much they suck.
4) Don't whine obnoxiously when you lose and blame everything but yourself.
5) Bring rum and two mugs.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 19:15:53
Subject: Re:Sportsmanship..
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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Frazzled wrote: Peregrine wrote:1) Don't cheat.
2) Don't be a rules lawyer (borderline cheating).
3) Don't brag obnoxiously when you win or tell your opponent how much they suck.
4) Don't whine obnoxiously when you lose and blame everything but yourself.
5) Don't wipe the rim when your opponent passes you the rum bottle
Fixed that for you.
And I need to jump on the wagon when it comes to "sportsmanship whiners". Often I see threads where people go "ZOMGZOMGZOMG I PLAYED A GAME AND MY OPPONENT WON! TFG TFG TFG!"
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Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:Cue all the people saying "This is the last straw! Now I'm only going to buy a little bit every now and then!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/07 23:35:23
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Peregrine wrote:FarseerAndyMan wrote:I have come up with a system of questions to ask at the end of the game to judge sportsmanship.
Here's a better system: don't have sportsmanship scores. If someone has a behavior problem just remove them from the event.
Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 02:21:44
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Good call frazzled!!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 03:20:58
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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FarseerAndyMan wrote:I think we can all agree -- The type of Tournament being run kinda spells out the sportsmanship expectations..
Going to a RTT style tournament , expect to see fluffy armies and gamers.
Going to a GT style tournament, expect to see cheese and rules lawyers.
I agree that different kinds of events can be reasonably expected to have different standards and scoring types, but I've been to plenty of GTs, and I don't think you should ever expect to see a lot of "rules lawyers" in the sense of people who are unpleasant about the rules. The only events where I've ever seen a significant percentage of unpleasant attitudes were at Ard Boyz- a free to play event with large product/monetary prizes which specifically devalued the non-game parts of the game, such as by having no paint requirement. The tools did kind of come out of the woodwork for that. That being said, most of the folks I played against even in Ard Boyz were perfectly nice.
Yes. Why?
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 03:28:19
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Douglas Bader
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Sigvatr wrote:Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.
It's not impossible at all. MTG does it just fine. There's no sportsmanship scoring, just judges available for the players to call if there's a rules debate or if a misbehaving opponent needs to be dealt with. And somehow, even with tens of thousands of dollars in prizes at stake, MTG tournaments run just fine without the kind of TFG behavior that people complain about in 40k.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 03:32:56
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Norn Queen
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My basic interpretation is play to the rules but don't be a jerk.
If someone makes a mistake, don't kick up a stink - on either side. If you see someone make a mistake with the rules, just point out where it is in the rulebook - be nice about it, everyone makes mistakes. If you make a mistake, and have it pointed out in the rulebook, be nice about it - people just want to play a fair game.
If you lose, don't be a jerk about it. You might have been outplayed, you might have had bad dice luck, you might have just played terribly yourself. Many things can lead to losing, to either player. Accept you lost. Getting upset isn't going to change anything at all.
If you win, don't be a jerk about it. Don't like it when someone beats you and rubs your face in it? Don't like it when someone continually tells you your list is bad which is why you're losing? Guess what, other people don't like it when you do it to them. If you win, don't be a jerk.
Overall, basically, don't be a jerk about it. You're playing the game for some fun. Even if you're a super competitive player playing a more fluff oriented player and both looking for different types of fun from the game, that fluff oriented player probably doesn't mind seeing his army kicked to the ground if you are friendly during and after the game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 03:38:34
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Sportsmanship is simple. Don't be a "male genitalia".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 03:44:57
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Huge Hierodule
United States
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A big one I define as being against the objective of being a "good sport" is rude commentary during the game. Like when you need a 2+ to make your armor save and you roll a one. If your opponent says "HAHA!" or "Fail" or anything along those lines, he is being a poor sport.
I'll pack up my stuff when people act like that. Rude, in-game commentary is one thing I will not tolerate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 04:00:37
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Peregrine wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.
It's not impossible at all. MTG does it just fine. There's no sportsmanship scoring, just judges available for the players to call if there's a rules debate or if a misbehaving opponent needs to be dealt with. And somehow, even with tens of thousands of dollars in prizes at stake, MTG tournaments run just fine without the kind of TFG behavior that people complain about in 40k.
There is much the same kind of TFG or deliberate cheating behavior at MtG events as you hear complaints about in 40k Actually, in MtG there's a lot more deliberate and sophisticated cheating and unsportsmanlike gamesmanship; stalling to try to end a match early, asking irrelevant questions or attempting to distract your opponent and break his focus, or otherwise behaving rudely. There used to be a couple of guys on the circuit notorious for trying to physically intimidate opponents, including offers to arm wrestle for first turn. Round 7 of this (excellent) tournament report/article has a good example of a cheating player, and the writer's evident awareness of exactly what the cheater is trying to do, and practiced counter-tactics for dealing with it:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m11limited/20240_The_Grind_Part_1.html
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 05:05:45
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Douglas Bader
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Mannahnin wrote:There used to be a couple of guys on the circuit notorious for trying to physically intimidate opponents, including offers to arm wrestle for first turn.
Sure, a couple people. But compare that to the constant complaints of cheating/poor sportsmanship/etc in 40k and it sure seems like MTG is doing a better job of handling the problem.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 05:52:02
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Dakka Veteran
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All of the "dont x" posts are disappointing. They only specify what bad sportsmanship isn't. A good sportsman/sportswoman shows these qualities:
1) Friendly
2) Fun
3) Respectful
4) Understanding
5) Engaged
6) Loses with dignity
7) Wins with humility
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/08 08:15:07
Subject: Sportsmanship..
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Peregrine wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.
It's not impossible at all. MTG does it just fine. There's no sportsmanship scoring, just judges available for the players to call if there's a rules debate or if a misbehaving opponent needs to be dealt with. And somehow, even with tens of thousands of dollars in prizes at stake, MTG tournaments run just fine without the kind of TFG behavior that people complain about in 40k.
How long does a MTG match last and how long does a 40k game last? I also do not think that you can compare a TCG to a regular tabletop given that the tabletop has a lot more space to allow people to cheat (the dreaded elbow!) etc. The thing with reporting a misbehaving player is to prove that he really misbehaved. We sometimes have those cases where people report to us saying that someone was misbehaving, but what are you going to do? Unless you got solid proof, you cannot penalize him right on the spot. You, of course, now start focusing him, but on the other hand, that means you can pay less attention to other potentially rude participants.
What I do give you, though, is that MTG tournaments work a lot better. The reason is easy: those are professional tournaments. GW gives a flying crab about players. They stated they hate competitive players with a passion and do everything to get rid of them; thus every tournament lacks the funding MTG tournaments get; barring the really major tournaments e.g. the ETC where you got really a professional / competitive environment. Still: there's a huge different, also financial-wise.
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