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Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

What makes a good sport ?

I mean in terms if being a good sporting player in a miniatures game.

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






1) Don't cheat.

2) Don't be a rules lawyer (borderline cheating).

3) Don't brag obnoxiously when you win or tell your opponent how much they suck.

4) Don't whine obnoxiously when you lose and blame everything but yourself.


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

For a rather depressing number of people it seems to be:
- Agree with all of my interpretations of the rules
and
- Let me do stuff that the rules don't necessarily allow



For most people, though, it's the same as for any other competitive activity: Play the game, and don't be a jerk about it.

 
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

Just curious,
I have run a number of tournaments and I think ( insaniak ) that your analysis is about fitting.
It seems that unless the player smashes his opponenet , then the winner gets bombed for poor sportsmanship.
I have come up with a system of questions to ask at the end of the game to judge sportsmanship. Rather than just asking " How much fun was this guy to play", we ask specific questions...
Did your opponent roll his dice in front of you?
If there was a rules disagreement was it handled in a reasonable fashion?
Did your opponent let you "retro" a bad move?
Did your opponent "Fast roll"his dice?
Did your opponent "fudge" rules?

questions like that give us ( the judges ) a better idea of what kind of a player this guy was than " How much fun was this guy?"

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I have come up with a system of questions to ask at the end of the game to judge sportsmanship.


Here's a better system: don't have sportsmanship scores. If someone has a behavior problem just remove them from the event.

Did your opponent let you "retro" a bad move?


Why should anyone let an opponent take back a bad decision? And why should failure to allow this have any effect on a sportsmanship score?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior






What makes a good sport? The same thing that makes a good sport in any in any other kind of competitive activity.

Be gracious in defeat and humbled in victory.

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Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

Retro-- "Those guys needed to roll 2d6 when they charge through difficult terrain...you rolled 3d6, go ahead and roll again."
Thats what i meant, not giving the guy a chance to move his figs after he foolishly put them in a bad spot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 22:26:12


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Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Nottinghamshire, UK

First two replies pretty much nailed it.

I'll also say that I don't subscribe to the theory that playing to win automatically makes you a bad sport. If one person wants to use a "fluffy" list that isn't necessarily hard to beat and the other prefers to go with substance over style the two aren't incompatible and the game won't automatically be a disaster. Attitude is everything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 22:26:05


Driven away from WH40K by rules bloat and the expense of keeping up, now interested in smaller model count games and anything with nifty mechanics. 
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

I agree Fezman-- playing to win doesnt make you a bad sport automatically.
And attitude does make a HUGE difference.

Anyone else have any ideas?

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pasadena

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I agree Fezman-- playing to win doesnt make you a bad sport automatically.
And attitude does make a HUGE difference.

Anyone else have any ideas?


I brought up something similar a long time ago. The quote in my sig sums up my feelings on sports scores. I got docked once on sports, and comp which is an entirely different issue, because I tabled an opponent. I got dinged on sports for asking my opponent to p
Ay faster so we could get past turn 2. Sports scores have no place, if you're a problem you get tossed otherwise don't play, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. In other words if you can't handle the competition stay out of tournaments.

Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Pass/fail is the best, I think at this point. Combined with favorite opponent votes. I've got a link to a good system in my signature.

I used to do the concrete questions* thing at tournaments I ran a few years ago. It's not bad. I like that it communicates the kind of things you expect of players.

(Here's a link to the rules I used to use in those events, with those questions I used to use:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/153188.page#153189)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/07 00:23:23


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

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Made in gb
Slippery Scout Biker




Don't do what someone did to me in a tournament! The premise was on finding your most sporting player to play against over the weekend and rewarding said player with your 'my favourite player to play against' label. After each game you scored them on a range of things then handed this over to the judges at the end to add up who was most sporting.

In my last game my opponent handed in his score sheet to a judge before we had even started! He announced the last gamer had been the most sporting player he had played against all weekend and he wanted to give him the full score.

Suffice to say I was less than pleased and it tarnished the whole game for me.
   
Made in jp
Fixture of Dakka





Japan

I am a Mirror, if my opponent is relaxed and not taking it seriously than we have a fun game, "do you think he is under the template?" sure just roll, but if my opponent is a rule Nazi, then i will adapt and give him a dose of his own medicine!

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Based on how I've seen sportsmanship scored.

Don't whine and be cheerful while taking your defeat with a fluffy army.

CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne 
   
Made in se
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh






 Mannahnin wrote:
I've got a link to a good system in my signature.

Okay, hold on. Is your name actually Ragnar Arneson?


 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Cue all the people saying "This is the last straw! Now I'm only going to buy a little bit every now and then!"
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Idaho

 angel of ecstasy wrote:
 Mannahnin wrote:
I've got a link to a good system in my signature.

Okay, hold on. Is your name actually Ragnar Arneson?


This guys name is METAL!



 
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

Thanks for the feedback guys!!

I think we can all agree -- The type of Tournament being run kinda spells out the sportsmanship expectations..

Going to a RTT style tournament , expect to see fluffy armies and gamers.

Going to a GT style tournament, expect to see cheese and rules lawyers.

I agree also that in some types of tournaments sportsmanship shouldnt even be applied as a score towards the win -- 'Ard Boys

Just some thoughts-- any one have any other ideas?

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Peregrine wrote:
1) Don't cheat.

2) Don't be a rules lawyer (borderline cheating).

3) Don't brag obnoxiously when you win or tell your opponent how much they suck.

4) Don't whine obnoxiously when you lose and blame everything but yourself.


5) Bring rum and two mugs.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in se
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh






 Frazzled wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
1) Don't cheat.

2) Don't be a rules lawyer (borderline cheating).

3) Don't brag obnoxiously when you win or tell your opponent how much they suck.

4) Don't whine obnoxiously when you lose and blame everything but yourself.


5) Don't wipe the rim when your opponent passes you the rum bottle

Fixed that for you.

And I need to jump on the wagon when it comes to "sportsmanship whiners". Often I see threads where people go "ZOMGZOMGZOMG I PLAYED A GAME AND MY OPPONENT WON! TFG TFG TFG!"


 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Cue all the people saying "This is the last straw! Now I'm only going to buy a little bit every now and then!"
 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I have come up with a system of questions to ask at the end of the game to judge sportsmanship.


Here's a better system: don't have sportsmanship scores. If someone has a behavior problem just remove them from the event.


Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.

   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

Good call frazzled!!!

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Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I think we can all agree -- The type of Tournament being run kinda spells out the sportsmanship expectations..

Going to a RTT style tournament , expect to see fluffy armies and gamers.

Going to a GT style tournament, expect to see cheese and rules lawyers.

I agree that different kinds of events can be reasonably expected to have different standards and scoring types, but I've been to plenty of GTs, and I don't think you should ever expect to see a lot of "rules lawyers" in the sense of people who are unpleasant about the rules. The only events where I've ever seen a significant percentage of unpleasant attitudes were at Ard Boyz- a free to play event with large product/monetary prizes which specifically devalued the non-game parts of the game, such as by having no paint requirement. The tools did kind of come out of the woodwork for that. That being said, most of the folks I played against even in Ard Boyz were perfectly nice.

 angel of ecstasy wrote:
 Mannahnin wrote:
I've got a link to a good system in my signature.

Okay, hold on. Is your name actually Ragnar Arneson?

Yes. Why?

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Sigvatr wrote:
Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.


It's not impossible at all. MTG does it just fine. There's no sportsmanship scoring, just judges available for the players to call if there's a rules debate or if a misbehaving opponent needs to be dealt with. And somehow, even with tens of thousands of dollars in prizes at stake, MTG tournaments run just fine without the kind of TFG behavior that people complain about in 40k.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






My basic interpretation is play to the rules but don't be a jerk.

If someone makes a mistake, don't kick up a stink - on either side. If you see someone make a mistake with the rules, just point out where it is in the rulebook - be nice about it, everyone makes mistakes. If you make a mistake, and have it pointed out in the rulebook, be nice about it - people just want to play a fair game.

If you lose, don't be a jerk about it. You might have been outplayed, you might have had bad dice luck, you might have just played terribly yourself. Many things can lead to losing, to either player. Accept you lost. Getting upset isn't going to change anything at all.

If you win, don't be a jerk about it. Don't like it when someone beats you and rubs your face in it? Don't like it when someone continually tells you your list is bad which is why you're losing? Guess what, other people don't like it when you do it to them. If you win, don't be a jerk.

Overall, basically, don't be a jerk about it. You're playing the game for some fun. Even if you're a super competitive player playing a more fluff oriented player and both looking for different types of fun from the game, that fluff oriented player probably doesn't mind seeing his army kicked to the ground if you are friendly during and after the game.
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Sportsmanship is simple. Don't be a "male genitalia".

 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule




United States

A big one I define as being against the objective of being a "good sport" is rude commentary during the game. Like when you need a 2+ to make your armor save and you roll a one. If your opponent says "HAHA!" or "Fail" or anything along those lines, he is being a poor sport.

I'll pack up my stuff when people act like that. Rude, in-game commentary is one thing I will not tolerate.

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Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

 Peregrine wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.


It's not impossible at all. MTG does it just fine. There's no sportsmanship scoring, just judges available for the players to call if there's a rules debate or if a misbehaving opponent needs to be dealt with. And somehow, even with tens of thousands of dollars in prizes at stake, MTG tournaments run just fine without the kind of TFG behavior that people complain about in 40k.


There is much the same kind of TFG or deliberate cheating behavior at MtG events as you hear complaints about in 40k Actually, in MtG there's a lot more deliberate and sophisticated cheating and unsportsmanlike gamesmanship; stalling to try to end a match early, asking irrelevant questions or attempting to distract your opponent and break his focus, or otherwise behaving rudely. There used to be a couple of guys on the circuit notorious for trying to physically intimidate opponents, including offers to arm wrestle for first turn. Round 7 of this (excellent) tournament report/article has a good example of a cheating player, and the writer's evident awareness of exactly what the cheater is trying to do, and practiced counter-tactics for dealing with it:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m11limited/20240_The_Grind_Part_1.html

Spoiler:
In round 7 it's the end of game 1 — I have two Squadron Hawks in play and a Liliana's Specter all tapped. My opponent is at five. I have a Corrupt and land in hand and three Swamps two Plains in play. It's his turn.

He has in play a 5/5 Protean Hydra enchanted with Pacifism a Sacred Wolf a Grizzly Bear and a Sylvan Ranger. I am at twelve. He draws his card for the turn (he now has two) taps two of his five or six land and plays War Priest of Thune destroying the Pacifism and representing eleven possible damage.

He then taps all of his creatures only barely — at about fifteen degrees — and says “attack with everything.” Now to an experienced player this is going to set off serious alarm bells.

He has played a creature and disregarded its summoning sickness for the difference and is tapping his creatures in a non-committal way uncharacteristic of the way he's been attacking throughout the game. This situation can (and will) be played off as a mistake but it's so dubious.

I commit him to his action: “Which creatures are attacking?” He indicates the Ranger the Bear the Wolf... the War Priest... and the Hydra.

I call for a judge. The judge arrives; I explain that my opponent has tried to attack with a creature with summoning sickness for the win and the judge checks with another judge to confirm that the ruling is a warning for a Game Rules Violation.

I untap and attack in the air for what with Corrupt will amount to lethal. So then felt you or…?

He taps three lands and announces “Safe Passage.” My heart sinks. He flashes a white spell. I've played more than enough M11 to recognize it as an Excommunicate.

You've got to be kidding me.

I wait a beat to make sure he's not doing the “Safe Passage— Ah just kidding ya got me” thing. Or even the “Jeff… (puts hand on my shoulder)… I'm messing with you.” He isn't.

Again I commit him to his action: (dejected) “Safe Passage?”

Him: “Yeah.”

I can't remember if I say something (“That's an Excommunicate”) or if he just notices/“notices” but he then says something like “Oh I guess I can't even play this.”

I call for a judge and immediately ask him to speak away from the table. I describe how my opponent has misrepresented cards on two consecutive turns for the win in an extremely tight board situation and call attention to the high suspiciousness of the situation. At this point another judge is also around.

The judge tells me to return to my match to continue playing and that they'll covertly watch my opponent to see if he tries anything again! It goes without saying that this is insufficient and that obviously if my opponent were cheating he's now well keyed in to my awareness of that fact.

I restate my case to the effect of: “I'm an experienced tournament player and I believe I've presented substantial justification toward a claim that my opponent might be cheating a very serious allegation. I need to speak with the head judge immediately.” They seem to accept this and one judge leaves.

After a moment he returns and tells me that the head judge is occupied and to continue with my match with one of them keeping an eye on it and that I can speak with the head judge after the round if I have further concerns.

Pretty unreal. I agree on the condition that the head judge come as soon as possible reiterating the seriousness of my claim. The first judge seems to agree to this and I return to my match.

My opponent now drops to one life and I target him with Corrupt.

We go to game 2 and he's stuck on two lands. He promptly loses and drops.

5-2

After the round I find the first judge and tell him that I'm still interested in speaking with the head judge. I then see the head judge and just approach him. As I recount my story the first judge takes issue — apparently there had been some sort of miscommunication about whether my opponent had actually attempted to play the alleged Safe Passage. (I'm not sure what exactly he'd thought I was saying.) The head judge grasps the situation but there's not much to do at this point anyway.

I do also tell the head judge what I'm about to say now — that despite all of what was described I can't actually be confident my opponent wasn't just genuinely mistaken! He didn't know I had Corrupt in hand and in most cases there Excommunicate as Excommunicate would've been enough to seal the win. Weird. One small check that could've at least been performed by the judges is looking at his decklist for Safe Passage — if he didn't even have one in his deck that would be pretty damning...

I don't know maybe I'm being overzealous. I just like to play the game by the rules; that's my jam.

Maybe it was the fact that if it were intentional it was officially the oldest trick in the book. It was like someone trying to pull a three-card Monty hustle on David Blaine. Not that I'm a cheater; it's just that I know my tricks and am constantly developing my fare.

To put things in perspective: at a recent Legacy event playing Reanimator and holding my priority I called a judge over to confirm that Pithing Needle could shut down a Faerie Macabre in a player's hand; then once my opponent confirmed its resolution I promptly named Flooded Strand of which he had two in play. I'm not expecting a similarly fine Italian cursive just not to have my intelligence insulted with such impudence.

Between the incidents mentioned so far as well as a few others that came up one of the most frustrating aspects of this tournament for me was the judging an experience several players I talked to shared and of which there were numerous examples. When a nuanced situation comes up you almost always need to appeal to the head judge to receive the correct ruling or even to be properly heard. The ability to appeal to the head judge is a great and really necessary aspect of the current system. The problem is that in a massive Grand Prix the one HJ appeal system is plainly outmoded. I can well understand why the head judge might be swamped; there are just too many people. My suggestion is to add a head judge for every five hundred participants beyond the first (for the first day).

The feeling of the tournament was of being swept up in a sea of people and having to take what you could get instilling a submerged sense of lawlessness. For this reason as well as others one felt with his compatriots “as a man in a storm when dust and rain are blown by the wind stand[ing] aside under a little wall.”

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Mannahnin wrote:
There used to be a couple of guys on the circuit notorious for trying to physically intimidate opponents, including offers to arm wrestle for first turn.


Sure, a couple people. But compare that to the constant complaints of cheating/poor sportsmanship/etc in 40k and it sure seems like MTG is doing a better job of handling the problem.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





All of the "dont x" posts are disappointing. They only specify what bad sportsmanship isn't. A good sportsman/sportswoman shows these qualities:

1) Friendly

2) Fun

3) Respectful

4) Understanding

5) Engaged

6) Loses with dignity

7) Wins with humility

"The objective of the game is to win. The purpose of the game is to have fun. The two should not be confused."



 ErikSetzer wrote:

Or you can just claim it's all bad luck and you're really the best player in the world if not for those dice and/or cards.
 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Impossible to do. Even if people get reported at a tournament, we would have to have 1 referee at every table in order to be able to hear and control everything the players do...which is impossible on any 40k tournament and a stretch at WHFB tournaments. Reporting to a TO doesn't work either as you simply lack the proof for the enemy being a cock (the bird of course. hah!). Sportsmanship scores are a really good thing to have and help a lot with common problems such as braggers or WAAC extremes.


It's not impossible at all. MTG does it just fine. There's no sportsmanship scoring, just judges available for the players to call if there's a rules debate or if a misbehaving opponent needs to be dealt with. And somehow, even with tens of thousands of dollars in prizes at stake, MTG tournaments run just fine without the kind of TFG behavior that people complain about in 40k.


How long does a MTG match last and how long does a 40k game last? I also do not think that you can compare a TCG to a regular tabletop given that the tabletop has a lot more space to allow people to cheat (the dreaded elbow!) etc. The thing with reporting a misbehaving player is to prove that he really misbehaved. We sometimes have those cases where people report to us saying that someone was misbehaving, but what are you going to do? Unless you got solid proof, you cannot penalize him right on the spot. You, of course, now start focusing him, but on the other hand, that means you can pay less attention to other potentially rude participants.

What I do give you, though, is that MTG tournaments work a lot better. The reason is easy: those are professional tournaments. GW gives a flying crab about players. They stated they hate competitive players with a passion and do everything to get rid of them; thus every tournament lacks the funding MTG tournaments get; barring the really major tournaments e.g. the ETC where you got really a professional / competitive environment. Still: there's a huge different, also financial-wise.

   
 
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