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I'm seriously confused as to why the Warpsmith is considered a bad choice. For the points he seems a great support character for a shootier Chaos list... Here's how I'd run mine:

Warpsmith, Brand
20 cultists, 2 flamers, autoguns
Aegis line, Quadgun

You're basically guaranteed to hit with BS5, plus the cultists are now Ld. 10 but can still go to ground. If assaulted, you have 4d3 auto hits, plus rapid fire shots. Then, a nasty character with at least 4 power axe attacks and a 2+ save to take a few random wounds here and there. Keep a Forgefiend nearby, and feel free to run the Warpsmith over and put a cultist on the gun. Overall, this bundle seems like it's a very resilient to shooting scoring unit, that no one would to get near. It scores, and puts out shots, hurts with overwatch and has good cover. Bonus for a meltagun if you need it, and reducing cover for the Havocs/Forgefiends that I personally love. It's ~260 points before the Aegis, not too bad, since its a pretty decent unit. I'm honestly not a fan of the super assault lord as they're prone to being shot and annihilated, but that's me. Just with math hammer the WarpSmith seems like a smart buy for a tough, choppy character to boost a scoring unit, shoot, provide all round utility and both repair and improve efficiency of some of your shooting units.

Of course, there are people who disagree, so what do you say?

I say he's decent. The Brand doesn't make use of his BS5, though, and netiher does the Quadgun since it is twin-linked

There's several bad thing about the warpsmith. He's not fearless so you either run him with fearless guys or risk running off the board. Despite the number of attacks, hitting last at bs4 means he's pretty mediocre in combat. He can't buy a lot of options, no steeds/bikes/jump-packs/meltabombs/4+ invs, his repair ability is sub-par at best with only a 50% chance to work, and curse vehicle is only situationally useful.

That said, people generally try and use him for the completely wrong roles and he's gained a bad reputation as a result. He's more of a shooty HQ in comparison to the other 90% of the HQ choices, with bs 5 and 2 shooting attacks a turn. He's very customizable with either the double flamers or melta+combi-melta. Sticking him behind the aegis though is wasting nearly all his potential. He should be moving forward with your war machines, repairing, cursing vehicles, and staying in flamer/melta range to protect the armor from either enemy armor or being bogged down in hordes. Used correctly, his ability to reduce cover saves can affect the game tremendously,

The warpsmith's main strength is having a trick for nearly any occasion. While other HQs are generally designed for a single purpose, he does several at once. Anti-armor, anti-horde, buffs, debuffs, and game-wide affects. He's cheap for what he brings, and really shouldn't be bogged down with too many upgrades, as combat isn't his best environment. Surrounding him with a horde of cultists or a fearless marine unit is generally your best bet, with plenty of long range armor to benefit from his special abilities.

 Badablack wrote:

That said, people generally try and use him for the completely wrong roles and he's gained a bad reputation as a result. He's more of a shooty HQ in comparison to the other 90% of the HQ choices, with bs 5 and 2 shooting attacks a turn. He's very customizable with either the double flamers or melta+combi-melta. Sticking him behind the aegis though is wasting nearly all his potential. He should be moving forward with your war machines, repairing, cursing vehicles, and staying in flamer/melta range to protect the armor from either enemy armor or being bogged down in hordes. Used correctly, his ability to reduce cover saves can affect the game tremendously,

The warpsmith's main strength is having a trick for nearly any occasion. While other HQs are generally designed for a single purpose, he does several at once. Anti-armor, anti-horde, buffs, debuffs, and game-wide affects. He's cheap for what he brings, and really shouldn't be bogged down with too many upgrades, as combat isn't his best environment. Surrounding him with a horde of cultists or a fearless marine unit is generally your best bet, with plenty of long range armor to benefit from his special abilities.

I'm not sure why I'd want to advance him with warmachines (granted I'm not very experienced with chaos after so long with Nids only) but right now I'm happy keeping my Forgefiend in the middle of the table behind my Aegis, and the Warsmith nearby for repairs. I know CC isn't the smiths specialty, so I like to hang him back for repairs, babysittting and denying the warlord point. I think CSM suffers from no decent advancing units, at least for the Warpsmith. Everything that you'll advance is CC focused, like spawn, or snooty like bikes, and I don't want to buy a rhino just for my Warpsmith, so I really think he's best in the backfield.

I wish Chaos had that bull crap rule that space wolves have so I could take 4 HQs in a single force org not above 2000 pts.

I'd take 1 Lord, 1 Sorcerer, 1 Warpsmith, and 1 Dark Apostle for kicks.

He's a pretty damn good buy, but he doesn't offer as much support as a Lord (Which gives fearless, is better in CC, and unlocks cult troops) or a Sorcerer (Which is a psyker so...pretty self explanatory. That said, the unit you've listed is pretty damn good. Would be a nice way to secure your home objective.

I don't know, I like one ML3 sorcerer and a WarpSmith, don't like Lords so much (but then, this is Iron Warriors, so less CC) Lords are good for advancing CC squads, not hanging back units. That requires a foot squad in Raider, or him to be on a bike and then attached to bikers/spawn... not very worth it as I'd have to make my whole army to support that unit.

Warpsmiths suffer from a lack of usefulness because of their HQ slot...

If they could be taken as an extra body, and simply added into a FOC once without taking up a FOC slot, they would be used...

The fact you have to compare them to even the worst of the worst for HQs and they fall sub-par, is a testament that they were not fully thought out enough...

 gpfunk wrote:
I wish Chaos had that bull crap rule that space wolves have so I could take 4 HQs in a single force org not above 2000 pts.

I'd take 1 Lord, 1 Sorcerer, 1 Warpsmith, and 1 Dark Apostle for kicks.

He's a pretty damn good buy, but he doesn't offer as much support as a Lord (Which gives fearless, is better in CC, and unlocks cult troops) or a Sorcerer (Which is a psyker so...pretty self explanatory. That said, the unit you've listed is pretty damn good. Would be a nice way to secure your home objective.

And us Wolves only take all the Rune Priests because the others add nothing to our already OP units

The issue is that Chaos Lords and Sorcerers are more point efficient.

He's paying for the ability to repair vehicles which is a fairly marginal ability.

Oddly enough, he works well buried in a cult marine squad as he gets fearless and provides a 2+ save for wound games. Extra shooting and assault power helps. Problem is this makes him your second HQ assuming you're taking a lord to get scoring cults

Like others have said, the fact that he's in the HQ section AND takes up a full slot is probably the biggest deterrent. My first choices (for example) are almost always either a special character and a sorcerer, or a cheap lord and a sorcerer. That leaves no room for him. Then you add to it the fact that his abilities are all kind of unreliable (the DA techmarine can get his repair roll down to what? Like a 3+ right?) and he's not fearless. No thanks.

Make him a one wound elite slot, OR fix it so that he doesn't take up a full HQ slot OR lower his points OR ... eh well, you get the picture.

 jifel wrote:
I'm seriously confused as to why the Warpsmith is considered a bad choice. For the points he seems a great support character for a shootier Chaos list... Here's how I'd run mine:

Warpsmith, Brand
20 cultists, 2 flamers, autoguns
Aegis line, Quadgun

At the point you are taking Cultists with autogun I really have to ask why you have regular CSM. Bolters are much better than autoguns, and CSM wount autofold in combat like Cultists will. 20 Cultists will die in combat, and then they will have to test Ld or run off the table. When you lose combat by 7, even Ld 10 is pretty bad.


Really the Warpsmith is poorly thought out.
His repair roll isnt high enough considering his cost, his curse ability is prevents him from repairing or shooting either of his 2 weapons. Shatter does not affect purchased terrain.

Lvl 1 sorcs, Dark Apostles and Warpsmiths should be 1-3 per HQ choice.
Make Shatter apply to any terrain on the board
Make the repair roll 3+
Curse should take a hull point and add gets hot and should only cost the use of shooting one weapon rather than all weapons
Should be able to take bikes, jump packs, Sigil and even TDA.

Otherwise make them cheaper.

Shatter does not affect purchased terrain.

Wow. Didn't even realize that. Makes him even less useful than I thought he was!

The reason the Warpsmith is considered a poor choice is because he's got gear and stats for multiple different roles, but they're all mutually exclusive (e.g. the repair ability is largely pointless and he isn't making use of his shooting/CC abilities if he's doing that, he's not repairing stuff or making use of his BS5 melta if he's swinging his axe, etc), and they're he's costed as though they are not, as though he could use all of them effectively together.

essentially he's a jack of all trades, master of none, but costed as though he were a master of all.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The reason the Warpsmith is considered a poor choice is because he's got gear and stats for multiple different roles, but they're all mutually exclusive (e.g. the repair ability is largely pointless and he isn't making use of his shooting/CC abilities if he's doing that, he's not repairing stuff or making use of his BS5 melta if he's swinging his axe, etc), and they're he's costed as though they are not, as though he could use all of them effectively together.

essentially he's a jack of all trades, master of none, but costed as though he were a master of all.

Reason nailed on the head.

essentially he's a jack of all trades, and not particularly good at any of them, but costed as though he were a master of all.

Fixed that for you.

He is good. It's just a case of him being surrounded by many of the best HQ's in the game in CSM. HQ's are definately the book's strongpoint. (Inb4 Helldrakes)

So yeah, he is good, and in many other codex's, if he were added, he would be snapped up. But in CSM, he is overshadowed by better options.

 Vaktathi wrote:


essentially he's a jack of all trades, master of none, but costed as though he were a master of all.

You just summed up Codex: Space Marines in a nutshell.

So well in fact I think that will go in my sig.

So yeah, he is good, and in many other codex's, if he were added, he would be snapped up. But in CSM, he is overshadowed by better options.

Are you sure about that? I completely agree that part of the issue is that HQ IS a CSM strong point and a generally competitive slot, but I don't think moving him to another codex would fix him. His abilities are still mutually exclusive, and many would still be unreliable. Plus the loyalist tech marines can do almost everything he does but better AND cheaper. As written, I just can't see him being all that useful anywhere. I still think his cost would need to be lowered or his abilities tweaked, etc.

 Evileyes wrote:
He is good. It's just a case of him being surrounded by many of the best HQ's in the game in CSM. HQ's are definately the book's strongpoint. (Inb4 Helldrakes)

So yeah, he is good, and in many other codex's, if he were added, he would be snapped up. But in CSM, he is overshadowed by better options.

I dont really see HQ as that competitive a slot. I often do not max it out below 2000 points and never max it out 2000+. FA is far far more valuable, so is HS. I would trade an HQ for FA or HS any day.

Waste of a HQ slot, I'd much rather have a Sorcerer for some psyker-ness, a Demon Prince or a Lord... Even Dark Apostles are pretty good in comparison to the Warpsmith, and, if you want to know why nobody takes Warpsmiths, look at the reasons Space Marine players don't take Master Of The Forge or Techmarines.. Yeah, sure, they can repair vehicles and they're not bad at shooting, (in my IW fandex, the psykers repair the vehicles with their super machiney spells ) and they're not bad a combat, but his LD isn't so good, and he's a bit of a mediocre, all-rounder..

BrotherOfBone wrote:
Waste of a HQ slot, I'd much rather have a Sorcerer for some psyker-ness, a Demon Prince or a Lord... Even Dark Apostles are pretty good in comparison to the Warpsmith, and, if you want to know why nobody takes Warpsmiths, look at the reasons Space Marine players don't take Master Of The Forge or Techmarines.. Yeah, sure, they can repair vehicles and they're not bad at shooting, (in my IW fandex, the psykers repair the vehicles with their super machiney spells ) and they're not bad a combat, but his LD isn't so good, and he's a bit of a mediocre, all-rounder..

I agree sorcerers are better, and I always take one, but how is his LD a problem? He's Ld. 10, which is fairly reliable.

The 2+ save, as mentioned, can be a good trick when your trying to mitigate wounds on cult troops. Unlike units in terminator armor, the warpsmith can join units in a rhino.

I feel like the lack of fearless handicaps him as an addition to a unit of cultists. I would rather take a 3 wound chaos lord.

The warpsmith is a good support HQ, he can reduce cover on a piece of terrain and repair things, but that's about it.

He has too few wounds, WS and int to be a good melee guy, and while his armor and number of attacks are strong, he won't hold up very well.

He would be much better if he had Slave-Labourers as Servitors... buy 2, increase your repair ability to 3+... And if he actually wasnt an HQ slot... I would take him as a Vehicle upg slot... Buy a Warpsmith when you buy your LR / Pred / Vind / MF / FF... His cost would equal out, he'd be another KP....

There are just soooooo many ways he could have been better...
And to the argument that he has kit, he really doesn't... lol 2+ is not kit... He has ranged weapons he can't even use properly without gimping his supposed performance slot (Supporting Vehicles)

Look at what the warpsmith comes with.

- Power Axe
STR 5, AP2 weapon is not bad. While being unwieldy, its still a decent tool.

- Artificer Armor
With the changes to 6th edition, artificer armor is much better than it was in 5th editiondue to the allocation tricks you can use with it. As such, its a good addition to the model. Given the overall lack of 2+ saves in the CSM codex this is extremely handy.

- Repair on 4+
Good for durable vehicles to keep them alive longer. The odvious thoughts for this are land raiders, but you can also repair allied soulgrinders.

- Vehicle curse
This is good when your dealing with rapid fire vehicles, such as venoms. You can also use it on vehicles with twin linked weapons (though to lesser effect).

- Shatter defences
This can be good, or it can be situational. If your opponent has a big piece of terrain on their side of the board they plan on using to bunker their troops, being able to knock it down a peg can be valueable.

- +2 attacks
Due to the mechatendrils, the warpsmith is swinging that power axe an extra two times per round, for a total of 5 attacks. (2 base + extra CCW + mechatendrils)

- Extra Weapons
The warpsmith also comes with a melta gun and a flamer. This boosts the squad he is with to improve their ability to handle armor or hurt infantry.

- Rewards/Artifcats/Marks
The burning brand is a good addition to add to the warpsmiths flexability.
You can probably skip out on an invuln save with your 2+ save.
In regards to marks, any of them can be good -- but they will limit what squads you can join. Personally I would take Mon because I T5 makes him much harder to ID.

- Summary
The warpsmith has a lot of flexability for fairly cheap. You can make him a lot better, but then his overall cost increases dramatically and I don't think its overall worth it. Keep it him cheap and let him enhance one of your squads. Don't expect miracles from him. Hes not there to wreck face. Hes there to add a lot of flexability to one squad.
How would I use him? I would add him to a PM squad.

 labmouse42 wrote:


- Vehicle curse
This is good when your dealing with rapid fire vehicles, such as venoms. You can also use it on vehicles with twin linked weapons (though to lesser effect).

So instead of shooting a BS5 melta gun at a vehicle which would probably kill it, you are going to curse it. Even a super high ROF venom or punisher can just not fire next turn if it doesnt want to.

If the curse gave the vehicle "cannot shoot next turn" would it ever be better than shooting the meltagun and the flamer?

the warpsmith should be in the elites slot along with the dark apostle and the maulerfiend. Then they would all be pretty good choices.

The warpsmith has a lot of flexability for fairly cheap.

I don't think he is that cheap, and I'm still questioning how flexible he actually is. For example, the Hell Drake is crazy flexible. It can Vector Strike AND fire the Baleflamer in one turn. The Warpsmith can do X OR y OR z and he's not real great at any of those. Like Exergy said, I can't think of a single time I would use curse instead of the melta-gun shot. Curse is rediculous when you take into account the fact that the vehicle can just not shoot. They should have just made the ability "Vehicle's weapon cannot shoot next turn". You have to upgrade to get the repair role to a 4+ (base is 5+ if I'm not mistaken), and in a plasma heavy meta with an army that has precious few 2+ saves, he's just going to draw every 2+ shot the enemy has. That's a lot of points to pay for a plasma magnet imo.

If Shatter Defenses could be used on purchased terrain I might like it more, but again, you're basically either hoping your opponent will deploy something in a spot where that ability actually means something OR that he will blunder into it. So it's another ability that is highly situational and unreliable, but you are still paying for it in the base cost of the character.

As far as the extra weapons - again, if he's hurting infantry or blasting armor he's not doing anything else that turn and there are WAY more inexpensive ways to do that.