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When the Emperor discovered Angron, why didn't he teleport down and come to his aid? Wouldn't that have solidified Angrons loyalty instead of secret animosity? Could Angron have been a loyalist?

Afaik, the emperor was trying to not make Angron pissed. Never really worked though.

If the Emprah had found a way to not make Angron as pissed as he is/was (depending on where in 40k's timeline you are), I think he would still have fallen. His rage was too great to be contained within the strict confines of Imperial life, even with the massive amounts of battle he could see.

Angron was just pure asskickery, only way Big E could've got him to join his side was to unleash him on some xenos somewhere far away from everyone else, just let him kills his way across everything until he eventually gets killed.

Angron would have been at best a dangerous but disposable ally

(I like Angron bytheway just saying he was too unhinged to be of any real use other than a spear to toss at your enemy, or Angrons case like a billion spears all pissed the hell off)

The rage implants were his and his legions downfall IMO. He would have been Warmaster if he wasn't bat crap crazy. Karn said so in a book who's name escapes me at the mo.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
The rage implants were his and his legions downfall IMO. He would have been Warmaster if he wasn't bat crap crazy. Karn said so in a book who's name escapes me at the mo.

That's probably just Kharne being a fan boy.

It wouldn't have mattered.

Angron was buddies with the gladiators and he was their leader. The ultimate reward for him was to die free in combat with his friends.

If the Emperor came down and with the help of the custodes kicked the asses of Angron's captors, that would have still been a stain on Angron's honor. He would have been deprived of a chance to live and die how we wanted.

Besides, Angron saw the Emperor as a tyrant and no better than the people that gave him the butcher's nails.

I think the best description of Angron I've read is in the Black Library collection "Angron". There's a short story set on Istvan II that explains him very well and it's only a few pages.

There's this free short story by Graham McNeil about the first war for armageddon that perfectly sums up the kind of monster Angron is.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
When the Emperor discovered Angron, why didn't he teleport down and come to his aid? Wouldn't that have solidified Angrons loyalty instead of secret animosity? Could Angron have been a loyalist?

The Emperor couldn't authorize his forces to help Angron's run-away slaves, because the ruling family of the planet had capitulated to the Imperial fleet and joined the Imperium. At that point, they were now Imperial citizens, whereas the runaway slaves remained rebels of the established order.

I don't think that would have solidified Angron's loyalty at all, since he was essentially seeking peace in a glorious death alongside his comrades. He would still object to the Emperor's ambitions, and perhaps been less the wounded animal trying to drown its pain in the blood of others, and more the "moral man who would have buried his axe in the Emperor's chest at the first opportunity" as he suggested in Betrayer.

 Kain wrote:
There's this free short story by Graham McNeil about the first war for armageddon that perfectly sums up the kind of monster Angron is.

Where is it, and what's it called? (so that I can read it) please

 Selym wrote:

 Kain wrote:
There's this free short story by Graham McNeil about the first war for armageddon that perfectly sums up the kind of monster Angron is.

Where is it, and what's it called? (so that I can read it) please

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?449288-The-First-War-for-Armageddon

 Kain wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Kain wrote:
There's this free short story by Graham McNeil about the first war for armageddon that perfectly sums up the kind of monster Angron is.

Where is it, and what's it called? (so that I can read it) please

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?449288-The-First-War-for-Armageddon

Thank you

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
The rage implants were his and his legions downfall IMO. He would have been Warmaster if he wasn't bat crap crazy. Karn said so in a book who's name escapes me at the mo.

Yeah he was hands down the best fighter because of the implants, but they also stole his humnity, unlike what some people think, he actually was a sophisticated being.

And being taken away from his gladiators only served to deepen his rift with ordinary humans.

There were a huge number of things the Emperor could have done given his near unlimited psychic abilities. This is the problem of trying to write a series of 50ish novels based on a few paragraphs of fluff that have defined the characters and written the ending.

Wouldn't Angron technically already be a part of the Imperium? Being one of the Emperor's 'sons' and all. Which would make the ruling family of the world actively fighting the Imperium and thus viable targets unless they called a truce.

They needed the world whole and stable. They didn't have time to go setting up another government and social structure. It also sets a bad precedent for the Emperor, in the event he wanted to parlay with other human worlds, and would suggest that he would support violent radicals against legitimate authorities in the future, which he definitely didn't want to do.

Why didn't they have time? Its the Big E. He does what he wants. I would imagine securing his son would have taken precedence.

Besides, Angron saw the Emperor as a tyrant and no better than the people that gave him the butcher's nails.

Was he wrong, was the Emperor outraged at the gladiatorial fights or did he just teleport their only chance of success away and allow the planet with its highriders still in power into the Imperial fold.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Besides, Angron saw the Emperor as a tyrant and no better than the people that gave him the butcher's nails.

Was he wrong, was the Emperor outraged at the gladiatorial fights or did he just teleport their only chance of success away and allow the planet with its highriders still in power into the Imperial fold.

I'd say the Emperor probably was tyrannical. He was dictating to people how to live and who to be led by.

And:
-Kill the mutants
-Restrict psykers
-No alliances with aliens (pretty sure some humans tried before the emprah)
-Kill anything that won't accept his rule

Sounds like a tyrant to me...

 Selym wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Besides, Angron saw the Emperor as a tyrant and no better than the people that gave him the butcher's nails.

Was he wrong, was the Emperor outraged at the gladiatorial fights or did he just teleport their only chance of success away and allow the planet with its highriders still in power into the Imperial fold.

I'd say the Emperor probably was tyrannical. He was dictating to people how to live and who to be led by.

And:
-Kill the mutants
-Restrict psykers
-No alliances with aliens (pretty sure some humans tried before the emprah)
-Kill anything that won't accept his rule

Sounds like a tyrant to me...

Of course he was a tyrant. A benevolent dictator to be sure (compared to the High Lords at least), but a tyrant still for all that.

So did you all read the story?

There's a theory I've seen floating around here and there that Angron's rebel gladiator army was corrupted by Khorne. Some of the things I've read in Betrayer makes me think that particular interpretation has some weight.

Angron's Butcher's Nails make him react badly to psychic powers (and psykers don't react well to Angron either), and the implants his legion has behave much the same way. Implanted Librarians all died horrific deaths as they lost control of their powers, and being in proximity to a psyker causes more pain while the implants are active. Now who's the Chaos God that hates sorcery and psykers?

If true, then it might explain why the Emperor acted so callously towards the rebel army, as he seems to be well aware of what's really going on with the Warp. It also lends a very tragic element to the whole thing - namely, that he knew Angron was a very severely damaged individual, likely under the influence of one of the Ruinous Powers, but still his son. And as we know from how his fight with Horus will go down, this is definitely the Emperor's soft spot.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Why didn't they have time? Its the Big E. He does what he wants. I would imagine securing his son would have taken precedence.

The rest of the galaxy does not wait for the Emperor to be good and ready to do what it's doing. The Emperor knew the GC was going to take awhile, but he had no interest in delaying it for longer than necessary. We see this repeated with his rebuke of Lorgar and his temple-building practices.

Based on the latest BL book, the emperor didn't really try to engaqe Angron beyind calling him to be a general in the GC. No honoring his mortal followers like he did with Lorgar and Lion, no spending time together to earn his respect like with Vulkan or Russ.

And while the implants did unhinge Angron to a growing degree, the book actually flips the table in asserting that without them he would have turned traitor much sooner; Angron was supposed to be a liberator, a freedom-loving Spartacus figure, if the implants had not perverted his purpose. As he tells Russ:

"I'm told to destroy whole civilizations and call it 'liberation'. I am told to demand millions of men and women and told to call it a 'tithe'. Because we are too scare to call it the truth! To call it SLAVERY."

"I am loyal, the same as you. I'm told to bathe my Legion in the blood of innocent and sinners alike, and I do it! Because it is all that is left for me in this life. I do these things, and I ENJOY them. Not because we are 'moral' or 'right' or 'loving souls seeking to enlighten a dark universe'. But because ALL I feel are the Butcher's Nails hammered into my brain! I serve BECAUSE of this mutilation. Without it? Well...perhaps I might be a more...moral man, like you claim to be. A VIRTUOUS man, eh? Perhaps I might ascend the steps of Father's palace...and take the slaving bastard's head!!"

Because the Emperor is a big dick with no interpersonal skills.

 Sephyr wrote:
Based on the latest BL book, the emperor didn't really try to engaqe Angron beyind calling him to be a general in the GC. No honoring his mortal followers like he did with Lorgar and Lion, no spending time together to earn his respect like with Vulkan or Russ.

And while the implants did unhinge Angron to a growing degree, the book actually flips the table in asserting that without them he would have turned traitor much sooner; Angron was supposed to be a liberator, a freedom-loving Spartacus figure, if the implants had not perverted his purpose. As he tells Russ:

"I'm told to destroy whole civilizations and call it 'liberation'. I am told to demand millions of men and women and told to call it a 'tithe'. Because we are too scare to call it the truth! To call it SLAVERY."

"I am loyal, the same as you. I'm told to bathe my Legion in the blood of innocent and sinners alike, and I do it! Because it is all that is left for me in this life. I do these things, and I ENJOY them. Not because we are 'moral' or 'right' or 'loving souls seeking to enlighten a dark universe'. But because ALL I feel are the Butcher's Nails hammered into my brain! I serve BECAUSE of this mutilation. Without it? Well...perhaps I might be a more...moral man, like you claim to be. A VIRTUOUS man, eh? Perhaps I might ascend the steps of Father's palace...and take the slaving bastard's head!!"

I like Angron even more now
I wonder how quickly he would have turned against the IOM without them....
...And if he would have still followed Khorne...

The story is awesome, but not really relevant. That's Angron after ten thousand years of being a Daemon Primarch. At that point any shred of non-brutality he might have had has been annihilated by the power of Khorne coursing through him.

Bludbaff wrote:
The story is awesome, but not really relevant. That's Angron after ten thousand years of being a Daemon Primarch. At that point any shred of non-brutality he might have had has been annihilated by the power of Khorne coursing through him.

Uh...no? That story is from the middle days of the GC, long before his ascension.

KnowItAll wrote:

Bludbaff wrote:
The story is awesome, but not really relevant. That's Angron after ten thousand years of being a Daemon Primarch. At that point any shred of non-brutality he might have had has been annihilated by the power of Khorne coursing through him.

Uh...no? That story is from the middle days of the GC, long before his ascension.

The short story they're talking about is the First War of Armageddon. Note: I haven't read that short story, but if they say it's during the First War of Armageddon, then it's definitely outside the scope of the HH

The quote in Sephyr's post is from Betrayer, which is during the Shadow Crusade (traitor forces doing their thang).

Someone mentioned why didn't the Emperor try and intervene? Because Angron would have, as someone pointed out, seen it as a stain on his honor. The Emperor was damned if he did, damned if he didn't. Teleporting Angron to his ship was the only way to ensure his son's survival and not risk death of the forces he had with him. And I feel for Angron, the man got a bad hand dealt to him, and for a while he tried to deal with it the best that he could, Sephyr's quotes kind of back that up that his lot in life was never going to amount to more than a brutal killer of men. And as for Angron having any shred of "non-brutality" in his system, if you read Betrayer, he is most definitely rid of ANYTHING that resembles compassion and anything that could be considered emotion beyond blind rage. Something about a throne of skulls.

Poor Angron and Kharn... AD-B did such a good job at humanizing them and making me feel for them :-\

God how I love Angron, I always preferred him in human form over daemon though. He seemed stronger back then...

Woah, never thought Angron could be soo deep... now I see him in a whole new light.