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If you go to a tournament and it says WYSIWYG, is it sproting to ask for a unit disqualification if it doesnt meet WYSIWYG standard?

A unit of attention marines being used as Bloodclaws..for example.

If someone isn't following the rules, and shows up knwoingly not following the rules and wants an exception, that is unsportsmanlike.

I have seen tons of models disqualified at tourneys.

If the rule is WYSIWYG, make sure your models are WYSIWYG, if you are doing a proxy or 'counts as' clear it before the event before games happen. Nothing is worse than attempting to do something only to see a lascannon become a missile launcher or some weedy troops end up being close combat monsters.

First, I am unfamiliar with "attention marines."

Second as far as the question, it really depends on how bad it is. It's a judgement call. If I think I will have issues keeping track of what they are or have I am likely to complain. If the difference is minor or I don't think it will effect the game I will let if fly.

That being said if its a WYSIWYG tournament you are within your rights to complain.

Yeah, ditto on what the heck is 'attention' marines.

I wish that folks would get DQ'd for not being WYSIWYG. Most event organizers just don't though.

Maybe he meant assault and it was autocorrected to attention?

But that's not too far off at all.

Yeah, as long as those assault marines have BP/CCW and proper representation for upgrades, I would have zero problem with that.

For example, I have space wolf models painted in Blood Claw style and Grey Hunter style in my SW army.

In general, the Blood Claw style models are used as Grey Hunters and I give them flamers and Mark of the Wulfen to represent their BC-ness.

My Grey Hunters are also GH and usually have different weapons/upgrades (all of which represented).

I set my opponents expectation at the start and there is no problem. They are all WYSIWYG and the only difference is paint job.

Depends. Small details end up in penalty points whereas major flaws result in a disqualification. In short, you cannot win a tournament if you cannot fulfill the WYSIWYG requirement.

As long as it is an actual model and I can tell what it is, I wouldn't object to it being used in a tournament setting. However, if your Tac marines have a Missile Launcher, I want to see a missile launcher, even if it's just a converted LasCannon. Assault marines as Blood Claws seems legit to me, as long as they are properly equipped.

I was in a tourney a few years ago where my Tyranid opponent was using styrofoam cups for his mycetic spores. I called him out on it and he gave me "Nobody else said anything". At this point in the tournament I was doing horrible and didn't stand a chance at placing so I let it slide. But I told him that I bothered me that I spent a lot of time converting my models appropriately. He tried telling me that he just "never has time", but if I can do it with a family, job, and all the responsibilities that comes with, he should too.

 Sigvatr wrote:
In short, you cannot win a tournament if you cannot fulfill the WYSIWYG requirement.

I wish that was true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DMDaddy0 wrote:
But I told him that I bothered me that I spent a lot of time converting my models appropriately. He tried telling me that he just "never has time", but if I can do it with a family, job, and all the responsibilities that comes with, he should too.

I completely agree with this. I bust my ass to make sure my armies are WYSIWYG and painted whenever they hit a table. It pisses me off to see half-assed proxies. At least put some effort in.

 pretre wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
In short, you cannot win a tournament if you cannot fulfill the WYSIWYG requirement.

I wish that was true.

Well, it's true in the tournaments I play / judge in. The top tier is very close to each other and even only a few PP can ruin your victory - assuming that the other top tier players follow WYSIWYG

DMDaddy0 wrote:

I was in a tourney a few years ago where my Tyranid opponent was using styrofoam cups for his mycetic spores. I called him out on it and he gave me "Nobody else said anything". At this point in the tournament I was doing horrible and didn't stand a chance at placing so I let it slide. But I told him that I bothered me that I spent a lot of time converting my models appropriately. He tried telling me that he just "never has time", but if I can do it with a family, job, and all the responsibilities that comes with, he should too.

I tend give people who run models that are not available to buy a lot of slack in play, however I don't think I would have styrofoam cup levels of slack lol. A spore can be made cheap and easy. It may be ugly, but its not a cup.

@TheTyranidStyrofoamCupGuy: Did you report him to a TO? That's a clear no-go to me and I'd disallow him to use the "models", if he can't get a replacement, he'd be disqualified right on the spot. Sure, everyone got a lot of work, but I consider such a behavior or attitude highly disrespectful towards all other players who really put effort into their army - sure, some armies look terribly painted, but...so what? Maybe they have no time. But they put time and effort into painting and that's to be appreciated and respected.

Okay guys-- Attention marines are what we call the basic marines from the 2nd edition box set -- you know the guys -- they look like they are at "ATTENTION!!"

Reason being -- I take the time to model and paint my figs to go with the equipment I put on them. I find it almost insulting to get my butt handed to me at a tournament by a bunch of primed white half constructed marines with bolters stomping me in hand to hand combat because i charged them thinking my 5 assault boys will stand a chance only to find out that " Oh yeah, those are bloodclaws..and oh no the powerfist guy was this model, you killed the bolt pistol guy.."

Reason being -- I take the time to model and paint my figs to go with the equipment I put on them. I find it almost insulting to get my butt handed to me at a tournament by a bunch of primed white half constructed marines with bolters stomping me in hand to hand combat because i charged them thinking my 5 assault boys will stand a chance only to find out that " Oh yeah, those are bloodclaws..and oh no the powerfist guy was this model, you killed the bolt pistol guy.."

Part of the problem here is that a lot of tournament venues (at least, the small ones I've experienced) have gone away from the die-hard standard of 100% WYSIWYG and 3-paint minimum. I'm not sure if it's because GW has seemingly lost interest in the tournament setting or what. I guess it depends on the FLGS. Even I've gotten lazy over the years, partly because its not required of me to paint anything anymore.

That being said, I still make sure to model my units appropriately. If my plastic space barbiez have axes and pistols, then the unit has axes and pistols.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Okay guys-- Attention marines are what we call the basic marines from the 2nd edition box set -- you know the guys -- they look like they are at "ATTENTION!!"

Reason being -- I take the time to model and paint my figs to go with the equipment I put on them. I find it almost insulting to get my butt handed to me at a tournament by a bunch of primed white half constructed marines with bolters stomping me in hand to hand combat because i charged them thinking my 5 assault boys will stand a chance only to find out that " Oh yeah, those are bloodclaws..and oh no the powerfist guy was this model, you killed the bolt pistol guy.."

That's definitely not WYSIWYG. Blood Claws don't have bolters and I'm fairly certain from your story the PF was not modeled at all.

Just because you're technically allowed to ruin someone's day doesn't make it a sporting thing to do.

Unless the offending unit is seriously interfering with your ability to enjoy the tournament (in which case you may want to ratchet down your sensitivity a few thousand notches), I find it's often best to overlook such minor indiscretions. Such behavior might have been acceptable in the days of GW's Grand Tournaments and their uncompromising stance on such things, but community standards are much more lax these days as evidenced by phenomena like counts-as armies.

Indeed Pretre -- Old boy had a bunch of basic attention marines and when I assaulted them , I got my butt handed back to me!!

Its not sour grapes guys, Ive played in many tournaments and if the opponent is straight forward about minor imperfections -- "this guy actually has a chainsword, not an axe" -- then im perfectly okay with that kind of stuff. But the Spacewolf player in question was also using 3 Forgeworld Marine jetbikes as Thunderwolf Cavalry...When the tourney was all said and done, I found out that the SW player knocked ME for sportsmanship!!
And with the Bugeater just around the corner, I just wanted to kinda "check myself" to see if I was out of line in asking for a unit disqualification if I have to suffer through another chincy player....

If the tournament rules state WYSIWYG, then surely you can't proxy.. I'm sorry mate, but, to be honest, it's really unsportsmanlike to go to a tournament and expect them to make an exception just for you.. You should just not include the unit.. I mean, if it's assault marines, then fair enough, but if you're proxying anything else (even in a regular, friendly game) and you don't tell your opponent, then it really is cheating..

 Danny Internets wrote:
Just because you're technically allowed to ruin someone's day doesn't make it a sporting thing to do.

Unless the offending unit is seriously interfering with your ability to enjoy the tournament (in which case you may want to ratchet down your sensitivity a few thousand notches), I find it's often best to overlook such minor indiscretions. Such behavior might have been acceptable in the days of GW's Grand Tournaments and their uncompromising stance on such things, but community standards are much more lax these days as evidenced by phenomena like counts-as armies.

Counts-as is not the same as what the OP is talking about.

His opponent's 'attention marines' aren't counts-as because there is no differentiation for equipment. That's a straight proxy.

Counts-as really has little to do with WYSIWYG. Counts-as is either WYSIWYG or not, the same as any other army.

BrotherOfBone wrote:
If the tournament rules state WYSIWYG, then surely you can't proxy.. I'm sorry mate, but, to be honest, it's really unsportsmanlike to go to a tournament and expect them to make an exception just for you.. You should just not include the unit.. I mean, if it's assault marines, then fair enough, but if you're proxying anything else (even in a regular, friendly game) and you don't tell your opponent, then it really is cheating..

No brother, I didnt have the screwy units, HE had the proxied Thunderwolf Cav, and I got knocked for Sporstmanship!!

I'm considering taking part in a fairly large tournament in Auckland next year, but I was wondering what to expect for WYSIWYG.

For example, I want to take one unit of Chaos Cultists. I was thinking 20 models with Autopistol and CCW and perhaps two Flamers.

However, I have a mix of Necromunda Goliaths and Dark Vengence Cultists. Do you think some having odd shotguns and lasguns would still be okay as the unit is all the same rules-wise?

Using the Heavy Stubbers as Flamers would be too far, right?

There's a big difference between not being entirely 100% WYSIWYG, and mentioning *after* an assault that some tactical marines are actually close combat specialists. A very big difference.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:
If the tournament rules state WYSIWYG, then surely you can't proxy.. I'm sorry mate, but, to be honest, it's really unsportsmanlike to go to a tournament and expect them to make an exception just for you.. You should just not include the unit.. I mean, if it's assault marines, then fair enough, but if you're proxying anything else (even in a regular, friendly game) and you don't tell your opponent, then it really is cheating..

No brother, I didnt have the screwy units, HE had the proxied Thunderwolf Cav, and I got knocked for Sporstmanship!!

Wait what? What models did he use to proxy, and, did he tell you they were proxied? And, in a WYSIWYG tourny, then that's illegal and, as far as I'm concerned, cheating...

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Indeed Pretre -- Old boy had a bunch of basic attention marines and when I assaulted them , I got my butt handed back to me!!

Its not sour grapes guys, Ive played in many tournaments and if the opponent is straight forward about minor imperfections -- "this guy actually has a chainsword, not an axe" -- then im perfectly okay with that kind of stuff. But the Spacewolf player in question was also using 3 Forgeworld Marine jetbikes as Thunderwolf Cavalry...When the tourney was all said and done, I found out that the SW player knocked ME for sportsmanship!!
And with the Bugeater just around the corner, I just wanted to kinda "check myself" to see if I was out of line in asking for a unit disqualification if I have to suffer through another chincy player....

Ok so here is where I would come down on this. Blood claws don't have bolters, and should not be modeled as such, however were they differentiated from any other unit I would not have an issue with it. The powerfist should be modeled in some way so that model is different from the other models in the unit.

As for the fw jet bikes no problem here as long as they are on the correct bases.

 pretre wrote:

Counts-as is not the same as what the OP is talking about.

His opponent's 'attention marines' aren't counts-as because there is no differentiation for equipment. That's a straight proxy.

Counts-as really has little to do with WYSIWYG. Counts-as is either WYSIWYG or not, the same as any other army.

With respect to strict WYSIWYG, there is no difference. If the models aren't Blood Claw models but are being played as Blood Claws, then, quite literally, what you see is not what you get regardless of how the equipment is modeled. The extent to which WYSIWYG is expected and enforced is a matter of community standards, and these standards have changed in recent years.

So I am going to a GT....

Is it alright to ask for a Unit disqualification if it ISNT WYSIWYG?

If I encounter a unit of what appear to be Tactical Marines and the opponent pulls the good 'ol "Oh that guy was the bolt pistol..." malarkie, could I ask a Judge to remove the unit from the game or is it played as a Tactical unit?

What about Chaos Daemon Rewards? If I model my prince with a Lash he won't be WYSIWYG if I decide not to take Lash that game.

Likewise if I don't model him with the Lash he wouldn't be WYSIWYG if I want to take the Lash.

In friendly games we can just say, its Chaos, perhaps instead of a Lash they shoot fireballs out their mouths, lazers out of their eyes. Maybe they whip their enemies with their tongues or their tails.

But would that stand at Throne of Skulls?

 Danny Internets wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Counts-as is not the same as what the OP is talking about.

His opponent's 'attention marines' aren't counts-as because there is no differentiation for equipment. That's a straight proxy.

Counts-as really has little to do with WYSIWYG. Counts-as is either WYSIWYG or not, the same as any other army.

With respect to strict WYSIWYG, there is no difference. If the models aren't Blood Claw models but are being played as Blood Claws, then, quite literally, what you see is not what you get regardless of how the equipment is modeled. The extent to which WYSIWYG is expected and enforced is a matter of community standards, and these standards have changed in recent years.

"Counts as" = A given model/unit is being substituted for another, normally to fit a specific concept or make use of an old model or unique conversion. Said substitution is consistent throughout the army and done with an eye for clarity and aesthetic appeal, although cost may also be a factor. A good example would be swapping Warhounds or Dire Wolves painted in daemonic colors for Flesh Hounds in a daemon army. There is no confusion about wargear or weapons, the size and basing is right, and the substitution is done consistently and in a way so as to avoid confusion. Another example I've seen recently is a counts-as Helldrake, modeled as a Storm Talon with added Helldrake wing parts, and a chin-mounted Heavy Flamer/Inferno Cannon turret. This was a model of around the same size, with a converted 360' pivoting large flamer weapon, and the helldrake wing elements helped make it extra-clear.

"Proxy" = One model or other object of similar size is used in place of the normal model, basically as a placeholder regardless of resemblance or wargear. Soda bottles used as Drop Pods, a Dreadnought subbing in for a Carnifex, bolter marines used in place of Blood Claws, "the guy with a chainsword upraised is actually a Sgt with Power Fist", etc. These are often used by new players learning the rules while they buy models, or experienced players testing out a list against a friend while the actual unit is in process of being purchased/assembled/painted.

While the line can get a little blurry at times, I think there's a real and practical difference between the two, and that while most players are open to Counts-As when it's not confusing, they are generally NOT okay with proxying in any kind of formalized event with entry fees. If I'm paying to play, I generally expect my opponent to have invested a good-faith effort in presenting a completed army and hewing closely to the concept of WYSIWYG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
So I am going to a GT....

Is it alright to ask for a Unit disqualification if it ISNT WYSIWYG?

If I encounter a unit of what appear to be Tactical Marines and the opponent pulls the good 'ol "Oh that guy was the bolt pistol..." malarkie, could I ask a Judge to remove the unit from the game or is it played as a Tactical unit?

If the event has published rules on the subject in their packet, sure. Raise the issue with your opponent (politely), and if you don't agree on the appropriate action, call in a judge.

If the event doesn't have any published rules on the subject, I recommend asking the organizers before the event starts.

Mannahnin--

That sounds like level headed advise, Thanks !!

Ten internets to the person who can show me a wysiwyg asteopath with carapace armour