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May look out sir rule be attempted only against template weapons or against other types of shooters as well. In rulebook it states that it may be attempted against template weapons, it does't say anything of other weapons. However when I played in my local store I was allowed to use against my oponents crossbowers and bolt throwers.

Against other types of shooting he doesn't get a LOS rule.

If the unit have 5 or more rank and file models left. (including banner and music not including Champion) None of the hits gets put on the character. You could have a character in a unit with 7 guys and get 20 hits my crossbows. None of the hits or wounds will be on the character.

Same for a bolt thrower. If the rank in question is made up entirely of characters or champions then or the total number of RnF models are less than five (see above) then you randomize which model in that rank is hit. (BRB pg 111, Bolt Throwers and Characters)

the only time a character can get a LoS from non-template shooting is if he is outside a unit.

A crossbow cannot target an individual without sniper. You have to whittle the entire unit down like Artee (and the BRB) says. As distributed per shooting.

What Grey said is in that case the character is the entire unit. You're really shooting the whole unit. He gets a LoS for any type of shooting at all if he's alone and there's a unit of the same type as him within 3".

The points made here interests me, as the manager at my FLGS states the following in this situation:

A unit of 3 ogres and to 2 characters, so a unit of 5 is targeted by shooting.

Lets say 10 hits occur, he insists that the these must be randomised to determine who is hit, then roll to wound accordingly against the variuous toughness'.

Can someone confirm whether this is correct, or is he getting mixed up with a previous edition?

BRB pg 99, (Combined Units -> Shooting).

if there are fewer than 5 rank and file models in the unit. (Characters and Champions do not count). The controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before a 2nd is allocated.

so your 3 orges with 2 characters unit get hit 10 times. Every orge and character would get 2 hits on them. Then wounds are rolled to the appropriate toughness.

Page 99 "Shooting"
If there are fewer than 5 rank-and-file models left in the unit (musician and banner count, champion does not count against the number of 5), there is a chance that the character(s) could be hit.
The controlling player (the one taking the hits) assigns one hit per model until everyone got one, then a second one per model and so on
So it's not randomized per se, but characters will get hit in the example with 3 regular ogres + 2 characters if there's enough hits

For instance : If you get hit 6 times, each characters will get 1 hit each, the unit will get 3 hits (and not one per every individual "regular" ogre) and then there's one left to assign to either :
-the unit
-character A
-character B

If there's 2 characters and a Full Command left, then it's
-2 on the banner+musician
-1 on the champion
-1 on A
-1 on B
-1 left to assign

Yeah, "Randomize" in 8th edition means that the owner of the models chooses how to divide up the hits as evenly as possible.

If you have a magic bow that hits like a bolt thrower, and a few S3 hits from normal bows, you can bet my vampire lord isn't going to be taking the big hit.

Artee wrote:
BRB pg 99, (Combined Units -> Shooting).

if there are fewer than 5 rank and file models in the unit. (Characters and Champions do not count). The controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before a 2nd is allocated.

so your 3 orges with 2 characters unit get hit 10 times. Every orge and character would get 2 hits on them. Then wounds are rolled to the appropriate toughness.

Exactly.

But if there were 11 hits, the Ogre player would be allowed to decide who received the eleventh hit, since all the models have already taken an equal number of hits.

unless (in the case above) there was still no champion, but three Ogres, including one standard bearer with a lookout gnoblar. In that situation, the characters will get a LOS...

There is no LOS against regular shooting, only against templates

TanKoL wrote:
There is no LOS against regular shooting, only against templates

If a character is on his own, within 3", he does get a LOS from normal shooting.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yeah, "Randomize" in 8th edition means that the owner of the models chooses how to divide up the hits as evenly as possible.

If you have a magic bow that hits like a bolt thrower, and a few S3 hits from normal bows, you can bet my vampire lord isn't going to be taking the big hit.

If get hit by a bolt thrower (or hits like a bolt thrower) you do random who get hit in that rank if the total of RnF models are less than 5. So if your Vampire lord is in a unit with 4 RNF models, you will randomise who get hit by the bolt. (BRB pg 111, Bolt Throwers and Characters).

Artee wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yeah, "Randomize" in 8th edition means that the owner of the models chooses how to divide up the hits as evenly as possible.

If you have a magic bow that hits like a bolt thrower, and a few S3 hits from normal bows, you can bet my vampire lord isn't going to be taking the big hit.

If get hit by a bolt thrower (or hits like a bolt thrower) you do random who get hit in that rank if the total of RnF models are less than 5. So if your Vampire lord is in a unit with 4 RNF models, you will randomise who get hit by the bolt. (BRB pg 111, Bolt Throwers and Characters).

Great, now read page 99.
Normal shooting, defined as ALL shooting that uses BS, hitting a unit with less than 5 rank and file and a character is randomized. The controlling player (me) decides which model is hit, but not model can be hit twice until all models take 1 hit.

Bolt Throwers use Ballistic Skill, which makes them "Normal Shooting".
The bolt thrower rule tells you to randomize.
The character rule tells you How To randomize.

The vampire lord is last man standing.

-Matt

Thats for normal shooting attacks. The shooting attack doesn't tell you to randomize, it tells you to allocate the hits. Bolt Thrower has rules that it hits 1 model per rank. Pg 111 has how to handle Characters in the Bolt.

How to randomize is on pg 7.

 mixer86 wrote:
The points made here interests me, as the manager at my FLGS states the following in this situation:

A unit of 3 ogres and to 2 characters, so a unit of 5 is targeted by shooting.

Lets say 10 hits occur, he insists that the these must be randomised to determine who is hit, then roll to wound accordingly against the variuous toughness'.

Can someone confirm whether this is correct, or is he getting mixed up with a previous edition?

It is worth noting (mentioned but not strongly) that Ogres can have "Look out Gnoblar" as an upgrade to standard bearers or BSB and that units with a "Look out Gnoblar" only require 3 RnF ogres for a LoS.

Additionally the guy above is right about the bolt throwers, it does randomize between the models in the front rank if less than 5 RnF and it can hit and skewer your VL.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

 mixer86 wrote:
The points made here interests me, as the manager at my FLGS states the following in this situation:

A unit of 3 ogres and to 2 characters, so a unit of 5 is targeted by shooting.

Lets say 10 hits occur, he insists that the these must be randomised to determine who is hit, then roll to wound accordingly against the variuous toughness'.

Can someone confirm whether this is correct, or is he getting mixed up with a previous edition?

It is worth noting (mentioned but not strongly) that Ogres can have "Look out Gnoblar" as an upgrade to standard bearers or BSB and that units with a "Look out Gnoblar" only require 3 RnF ogres for a LoS.

Additionally the guy above is right about the bolt throwers, it does randomize between the models in the front rank if less than 5 RnF and it can hit and skewer your VL.

Actually, he is wrong. Shoot at Characters is more specific than shooting. The rules for shooting at characters are very specific. If it uses Ballistic Skill to hit, they outline that the controlling player assigns the "Random" hits. The exception to that is weapons that use templates.
The Random on page 6 doesn't mention shooting at all. It's a general rule. Specific > General.
That random you would use when you are generating spells, or figuring out which spells are lost in a miscast.

No where does it state that normal shooting at unit with 4 RnF models is Random. It states you allocate the hits.

The Bolt Thrower rule with characters state that you Random who gets hit.


The random rule is on pg 7.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Actually, he is wrong. Shoot at Characters is more specific than shooting. The rules for shooting at characters are very specific. If it uses Ballistic Skill to hit, they outline that the controlling player assigns the "Random" hits. The exception to that is weapons that use templates.
The Random on page 6 doesn't mention shooting at all. It's a general rule. Specific > General.
That random you would use when you are generating spells, or figuring out which spells are lost in a miscast.

No he isn't. If you are shot with a bolt thrower into a unit with 4 R&F models and a character, the hit is to one random member of that.

I suggest you take your own advice and look on page 111 where it specifically tells you how to deal with this situation under the even more specific heading of bolt throwers then the less specific category of BS based shooting.

I was wrong on this. I missed not the section on bolt throwers that tell you to randomize hits, but the section that tells you to randomize hits onto characters.
My bad.

So this means, if I stick a wraith character with with my unit of unit of 5 crypt horrors (1 is unit champ), the unit is immune to flank shots of bolt throwers.
Flank shots say to treat flanks as ranks. With only 1 model in the rank, it would have to hit the wraith, and being ethereal, doesn't die, and the bolt doesn't penetrate.
Correct?

-Matt

If you dont kill the model, you cannot penetrate. That seems to work.

It's silly (as something ethereal is blocking a shot), but it works

Agree its Silly, but as long as the Wrath is on the flank that's getting hit the bolt stops.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you dont kill the model, you cannot penetrate. That seems to work.

The leap is applying the flank = ranks on the flank shot from normal bolt thrower shooting to flank = rank for the specifics on firing on characters.
It makes the most sense working that way.

-Matt