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Firstly, Skyray seeker missiles.

Are they forced to fire only two of them? Or can they fire all six potentially?

Secondly, are Markerlights weapons for the purposes of taking weapon damage results? likewise for individual missiles.

I want to see how people see this Shenanigan. As far as I'm concerned, this question is strictly HWYPI.

A skyray has 2 Networked Markerlights.

Can I shoot one, use it to raise my BS to 5, then fire the next one with my other weapons?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can I shoot one, use it to raise my BS to 5, then fire the next one with my other weapons?

Definite NO. This is one of the first things covered in the Shooting Phase section.
All of a units shooting is simultaneous. You should be rolling all your hit dice together.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can I shoot one, use it to raise my BS to 5, then fire the next one with my other weapons?

Definite NO. This is one of the first things covered in the Shooting Phase section.
All of a units shooting is simultaneous. You should be rolling all your hit dice together.

But Networked Markerlights are specifically rolled for before all the shooting weapons.

So what is to stop me rolling one markerlight, setting up BS5 and then rolling my second markerlight, then my weapons? I am still rolling both markerlights before the main shooting weapons.

Because All shooting is done at the same time. Markerlights are Prior to other shooting, but 2+ markerlights are still fired at the same time.

Your shenanigans are illeagle

Only 2 may be fire as Only 1 may be fired per markerlight hit.

You Fire all Networked Markerlights before firing any other weapon, so you cannot use a NWMarkerlight hit to increase a NWMarkerlight.

Also the Net gain from NWML then NWML is 1 NWML, the same as not spending the first; so it is pointless beyond ileagal(You may use another markerlight previously fired to increase both markerlights though, and this both works and is a good idea).

Markerlights are weapons, they just have no Str and AP.

Now unless I missed it somewhere, seeker missles are just 1 shot weapons. Nothing I read says that they can ONLY be fired with markerlights. Although, in most cases it is better to use the markerlight for the ignores cover part.

I thought you could fire Seekers as normal missiles now, sans the Marker light BS5 bonus?

researching

Ah, yes they may be fired independently, but only those fired via Markerlight expenditure gain the Markerlight Skyfirfe missile rules. The rest are direct fire at base(or general markerlight bonused ) BS

Still no shenanigan; You can fire all 6 Skyfire missiles at BS 4, 5, 6+ But will not gain the Loss of necessary LOS, Ignore cover rule, and Each one counts as a weapon for full BS.

If you have a Seeker Missle you can fire it using your ballistic skill as a normal weapon or if you cannot fire any more weapons, you may choose to use a Markerlight and follow the Markerlight rules.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
researching

Ah, yes they may be fired independently, but only those fired via Markerlight expenditure gain the Markerlight Skyfirfe missile rules. The rest are direct fire at base(or general markerlight bonused ) BS

Still no shenanigan; You can fire all 6 Skyfire missiles at BS 4, 5, 6+ But will not gain the Loss of necessary LOS, Ignore cover rule, and Each one counts as a weapon for full BS.

Skyfire is irrelevant when you have a velocity tracker on vehicle.

I simply read "are always fired first". I see nothing that says that they have to be fired simultaneously.

I suppose the shooting phase simultaneous shooting comes into play there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I thought you could fire Seekers as normal missiles now, sans the Marker light BS5 bonus?

They did this irritating thing where they made the italicised description text describe the rule.

The quote is

Seeker Missiles are one-shot weapons usually guided to their targets by markerlights, though they can be fired independently as well.

Now, this very explicitly tells us we're allowed to do it, because it's how they work "Fluffwise", but the italic text is simply a description and never actually do we have a rule that specifically allows us to shoot them as normal weapons.

Firing as a seeker missile has benefits, however.

It:

Doesn't need LOS.
Is BS5 standard
Ignores Cover
Does not count to maximum weapons fired, but does count towards flyer limit of 2 missiles.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Seeker Missiles are one-shot weapons usually guided to their targets by markerlights, though they can be fired independently as well.

Now, this very explicitly tells us we're allowed to do it, because it's how they work "Fluffwise", but the italic text is simply a description and never actually do we have a rule that specifically allows us to shoot them as normal weapons.

That is because there is no need for such rule. No more than there is a need for a rule that specifically states "Rail Rifle may be fired as normal weapon".

Page 65 has Seeker Missile weapon profile, and only Special rule for it is One Shot. Note the lack of special rules regarding markerlights in the weapon profile. Seeker Missile is just a normal weapon and there is no reason why it would require some specific permission to fire normally.

Now, many people assume that "it required markerlight in previous codex, so therefore it must require markerlight in current codex" and this behaviour is why people might think that one could not fire it normally.

(Firing Seeker Missile via markerlight is a Markerlight special rule, not Seeker Missile one.)

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
researching

Ah, yes they may be fired independently, but only those fired via Markerlight expenditure gain the Markerlight Skyfirfe missile rules. The rest are direct fire at base(or general markerlight bonused ) BS

Still no shenanigan; You can fire all 6 Skyfire missiles at BS 4, 5, 6+ But will not gain the Loss of necessary LOS, Ignore cover rule, and Each one counts as a weapon for full BS.

Skyfire is irrelevant when you have a velocity tracker on vehicle.

I simply read "are always fired first". I see nothing that says that they have to be fired simultaneously.

I suppose the shooting phase simultaneous shooting comes into play there.

Right, so both the networked markerlights are fired first so you resolve both of them at the same time, as per BRB.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
researching

Ah, yes they may be fired independently, but only those fired via Markerlight expenditure gain the Markerlight Skyfirfe missile rules. The rest are direct fire at base(or general markerlight bonused ) BS

Still no shenanigan; You can fire all 6 Skyfire missiles at BS 4, 5, 6+ But will not gain the Loss of necessary LOS, Ignore cover rule, and Each one counts as a weapon for full BS.

Skyfire is irrelevant when you have a velocity tracker on vehicle.

Please excuse half asleep terminology, skyfire had nothing to do with it, meant Seeker missile in all cases, Context will match and all statements are accurate and make sense when "Skyfire missile" is read as "Seeker Missile".

 grendel083 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can I shoot one, use it to raise my BS to 5, then fire the next one with my other weapons?

Definite NO. This is one of the first things covered in the Shooting Phase section.
All of a units shooting is simultaneous. You should be rolling all your hit dice together.

You are wrong grendel083. From the Codex:

When a unit with one or more networked markerlights makes a Shooting attack, the networked markerlights are always fired first. Once the shots from the networked markerlights are resolved, the unit can then fire their other weapons. This means that (unlike other units) they can expend markerlight counters placed from their own networked markerlights in order to benefit their other weapons.

The rule flat out says you can use the Markerlight abilities because the "Networked Markerlight" fired first.

And Scipio Africanus is wrong as well. Both Networked Markerlights would be fired at the same time, at the normal Sky Ray BS. You can't choose to fire them one at a time.

So with a Sky Ray you can fire off your Networked Markerlights with Skyfire (thank you Velocity Tracker) and fire off 2 Seeker Missiles for free at BS5 (because Seeker Missile are BS5) and then use whatever remaining weapon shots you have to Skyfire more Seeker Missiles at the normal Sky Ray BS.

I am still missing the part where the codex says you can fire all 6 missiles at once. Could you fire all 4 Bloodstrike/HK/Grey Knight missiles at the same time from the Stormraven? This does not seem correct to me.

With the two markerlights you will shoot all six missiles by turn 3-4, right?

IIRC, Flyers are restricted to shooting only 2 missles per turn. The Skyray isn't a flyer so doesn't have this restriction and could unload all 6 missles in 1 turn provided it didn't move.

 Dogface 76 wrote:
I am still missing the part where the codex says you can fire all 6 missiles at once. Could you fire all 4 Bloodstrike/HK/Grey Knight missiles at the same time from the Stormraven? This does not seem correct to me.

With the two markerlights you will shoot all six missiles by turn 3-4, right?

A vehicle can fire ALL its weapons if it remains stationary, and gain snapfire penalty s when it moves depending on what kind it is.

Flyer missiles are different and are coverd in page 81 in the brb i believe.

Skyrays Can shoot the network markerlights first and after it is resolved can shoot all its missiles at bs5 with its own marker tokens, IF it remained stationary.

Dogface 76: What you are failing to consider is the rules for vehicle shooting. A Stormraven is a Flyer. Flyers can shoot 4 weapons at the same time, but are restricted to only firing two missiles per turn. The Sky Ray is a Skimmer. So they follow the normal vehicle rules on Page 71 (they are not Fast): Stationary means they fire all weapons, Cruising speed 1 weapon, Flat Out 0 weapons.

So if you hold still, yes you can fire off all your Missiles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Skyrays Can shoot the network markerlights first and after it is resolved can shoot all its missiles at bs5 with its own marker tokens, IF it remained stationary.

That is incorrect. Seeker Missiles can be fired individually at the normal BS for the vehicle. Alternatively, you can expend a Markerlight token when your vehicle shoots in order to use the Markerlight to fire the Seeker Missile. When that happens its BS5 and can ignore LOS and Cover.

So a Skyray on the move can fire off all 6 Seeker Missiles if there are enough Markerlights on the target.

Cow, what Desubot was stating, correctly, was that Netoworked Markerlights can increase the BS of the Skyray to BS5 and then Unload the 6 missles at the increased BS if it didn't move.

cowmonaut wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Skyrays Can shoot the network markerlights first and after it is resolved can shoot all its missiles at bs5 with its own marker tokens, IF it remained stationary.

That is incorrect. Seeker Missiles can be fired individually at the normal BS for the vehicle. Alternatively, you can expend a Markerlight token when your vehicle shoots in order to use the Markerlight to fire the Seeker Missile. When that happens its BS5 and can ignore LOS and Cover.

So a Skyray on the move can fire off all 6 Seeker Missiles if there are enough Markerlights on the target.

Was using the OP as the example. (shoot Marker get at least 1 hit > increase BS to 5 > proceed to shoot 6 missiles at BS 5 with no other benefit)

Anyway this is clear cut and decisive, we have full permission and there is no shenanigans.

Ah, misunderstood what you wrote. Yes, that would work to give them all BS 5. My bad!

cowmonaut wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can I shoot one, use it to raise my BS to 5, then fire the next one with my other weapons?

Definite NO. This is one of the first things covered in the Shooting Phase section.
All of a units shooting is simultaneous. You should be rolling all your hit dice together.

You are wrong grendel083. From the Codex:

When a unit with one or more networked markerlights makes a Shooting attack, the networked markerlights are always fired first. Once the shots from the networked markerlights are resolved, the unit can then fire their other weapons. This means that (unlike other units) they can expend markerlight counters placed from their own networked markerlights in order to benefit their other weapons.

The rule flat out says you can use the Markerlight abilities because the "Networked Markerlight" fired first.

And Scipio Africanus is wrong as well. Both Networked Markerlights would be fired at the same time, at the normal Sky Ray BS. You can't choose to fire them one at a time.

So with a Sky Ray you can fire off your Networked Markerlights with Skyfire (thank you Velocity Tracker) and fire off 2 Seeker Missiles for free at BS5 (because Seeker Missile are BS5) and then use whatever remaining weapon shots you have to Skyfire more Seeker Missiles at the normal Sky Ray BS.

Yes, you resolve all your networked Markerlights before resolving any other attacks in the unit.

No you cannot use 1 Networked markerlight to increase the BS of a seconf Networked markerlight within the same unit.

This is clear in the rules you referenced.

What the OP had asked was about firing the first NWML, and then using the BS bonus on the second NWML which is against the rules(and pointless); So grendel was 100% accurate.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So grendel was 100% accurate.

Not quite. He was right for the wrong reasons. His argument was that all shooting by a unit was simultaneous per the BRB. I don't think he was aware of the Networked Markerlight special rule. At least, that's what I got out of his post.

cowmonaut wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So grendel was 100% accurate.

Not quite. He was right for the wrong reasons. His argument was that all shooting by a unit was simultaneous per the BRB. I don't think he was aware of the Networked Markerlight special rule. At least, that's what I got out of his post.

Aye, thats right

I assumed, via Grendel's quote of the OP, that he was addressing the 1 NWML, then the other NWML, then the rest of shooting from the skyray(which is what the OP was talking about).

So I guess grendel was only partially correct, and should have had a clarification instead of a declaration that he was wrong(his answer was technically 100% correct, the reasons for his post was flawed).

Thank you for the clarification.

So what is stopping a Manticore from volley firing all 4 missiles at once (for one truly epic alpha strike!)? Is there something in the Ordinance/Barrage rule set that disallows this?

This seems to me to be the same thing. So why can one missile boat fire all missiles at once (Skyray) while another (Manticore) cannot?

 Dogface 76 wrote:
So what is stopping a Manticore from volley firing all 4 missiles at once (for one truly epic alpha strike!)? Is there something in the Ordinance/Barrage rule set that disallows this?

This seems to me to be the same thing. So why can one missile boat fire all missiles at once (Skyray) while another (Manticore) cannot?

The Manticore has rules that prevent this.

Well if each missile is considered a weapon, and the guns on the ship like the SMS option are weapons then you would need to randomize through 8 weapons. Though hiwpi that the tail fin is gone as all the missiles are.

Now the next question is how many missiles per turn. Got me on that one. I need to read the brb to see how many things can fire after moving and without moving. What would snap shot and what would not .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok read it. If that skyray has not moved, then all it's weapons at full bs. Moved 6" 1 at full bs the rest snap shots. 12". All snap shots.

So it looks like to be effective that skyray needs to remain still.

So can the Manticore fire all its Storm Eagle rockets in one turn: Moving or not moving?

I guess my major question is why one can (Skyray) and the other cannot (Manticore)?