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Ok, so I had a game last night where I killed a Fire Warrior squad down to just one Drone remaining, which hid and held an objective. Is this legal? From the codex (pg33);

"DRONES

A unit comprised entirely of drones is a non-scoring, non­
denial unit."

"UNIT UPGRADE DRONES

Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional
squad members in all regards"

Is the correct interpretation of this that if the unit was bought entirely as drones, it can never be a denial or scoring unit, however, if it was a normal squad with upgrade drones, which were then the only thing left in the unit, it can carry on being a scoring unit as per the rules for a troop choice?

Non scoring as there is nothing in there but drones.

Agreed. Once the unit is comprised entirely of Drones it is non-scoring, non-denial.

Yeah that does make more sense, shame I lost a game due to my opponent being wrong about it though. C'est la Vie

Would not the specific out the general in this case? The specific being they ere upgrade drones so would act in all respect as troops.

In the case of drone squads and probably detached vehicle drones I can see them always being a unit composed only of drones so not being scoring/denial.

Are there any non-drone models in the unit? No? Then it is not scoring/denial.

barnowl wrote:
Would not the specific out the general in this case?

The major problem with the "specific>general" rule of thumb is that reasonable people can disagree on which is more specific.

barnowl wrote:
The specific being they ere upgrade drones so would act in all respect as troops.

Where this completely falls apart, in my opinion, is that acting in all respects as Troops which have a special rule that prevents them from scoring still results in "not scoring". There's nothing about that assertion which overrides the drones' rule.

The confusion here comes from 1). There is no indication when to determine if a unit is scoring, 2). Most units are scoring throughout the entire game and don't change from scoring to non-scoring units.

Pyrian wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Would not the specific out the general in this case?

The major problem with the "specific>general" rule of thumb is that reasonable people can disagree on which is more specific.

The major problem is people misapplying the rule.
You need to have a conflict. There's no conflict here whatsoever.
Units of only drones do not score.
Upgrade drones are normal members of the unit.

No conflict, both are applied, life goes on.

 Ghaz wrote:
The confusion here comes from 1). There is no indication when to determine if a unit is scoring, 2). Most units are scoring throughout the entire game and don't change from scoring to non-scoring units.

Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where a unit can go from being scoring to non-scoring.

The only other one I can think of is if a Warlord with the warlord trait that makes him a scoring unit leaves the unit he's in. Then the unit would revert to being non scoring.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The confusion here comes from 1). There is no indication when to determine if a unit is scoring, 2). Most units are scoring throughout the entire game and don't change from scoring to non-scoring units.

Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where a unit can go from being scoring to non-scoring.

The only other one I can think of is if a Warlord with the warlord trait that makes him a scoring unit leaves the unit he's in. Then the unit would revert to being non scoring.

If the Warlord has Immovable Object and joins a unit, the unit does not become scoring. They are still a non-scoring unit, the Warlord is a scoring unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The confusion here comes from 1). There is no indication when to determine if a unit is scoring, 2). Most units are scoring throughout the entire game and don't change from scoring to non-scoring units.

Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where a unit can go from being scoring to non-scoring.

The only other one I can think of is if a Warlord with the warlord trait that makes him a scoring unit leaves the unit he's in. Then the unit would revert to being non scoring.

If the Warlord has Immovable Object and joins a unit, the unit does not become scoring. They are still a non-scoring unit, the Warlord is a scoring unit.

But doesn't the IC become a member of the unit for all rules purposes?

The Warlord is a scoring unit. He joins a non-scoring unit. THis does not make the non-scoring unit scoring. If the trait said "The Warlord and his unit are a scoring unit" then it would.

 Happyjew wrote:
They are still a non-scoring unit, the Warlord is a scoring unit.

They're all the same unit. Can a single unit be both scoring and not scoring? Scoring is a property of units, not individual models (unlike, say, "Unit Type", lol).

Pyrian wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
They are still a non-scoring unit, the Warlord is a scoring unit.

They're all the same unit. Can a single unit be both scoring and not scoring? Scoring is a property of units, not individual models (unlike, say, "Unit Type", lol).

Good question. Per the rules since the Warlord while attached is not a unit in and of itself, and is a normal member of a non-scoring unit he would cease to be scoring. For example a SM Captain and a Command Squad - the unit "SM Captain" is a scoring unit, the Command Squad is not. Whilst join, the model "SM Captain" is no longer scoring (however, the unit of the same name still is).

This is the exact opposite of a non-scoring IC joining a scoring unit., whilst joined, the model is a scoring model.

Edit: Furthermore an argument can be made that the Warlord Trait is a special rule, and since Immovable Object does not specify, it does not confer to any unit he joins.

 Happyjew wrote:
The Warlord is a scoring unit. He joins a non-scoring unit. THis does not make the non-scoring unit scoring. If the trait said "The Warlord and his unit are a scoring unit" then it would.

Then what does it make it?

P. 39 "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

The warlord trait reads "Your Warlord is a scoring unit, even if he is a vehicle." P.111

He joins a unit, what happens?

Is the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, become a scoring unit and Why?

Does the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, cease to be a scoring unit and Why?

If he joins a unit of allied Space Marines, when the warlord is in a primary detachment of Blood Angels what happens and why?

Anyone have any clue as to what happens in these situations?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, become a scoring unit and Why?

Does the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, cease to be a scoring unit and Why?

If he joins a unit of allied Space Marines, when the warlord is in a primary detachment of Blood Angels what happens and why?

Anyone have any clue as to what happens in these situations?

The Warlord ceases to be a scoring model whilst attached to a non-scoring unit. As I said this is exactly like a non-scoring IC joining a scoring unit.

There's a notion of "privilege" going to the joined unit which is popular on the internet but isn't really how the rule is worded and has no precedent in any rule, FAQ, or anything, really, once the IC is joined. Many people on the 'net would have you believe that the result of IC1 joining IC2 is quite distinct from IC2 joining IC1, and in cases like this, if IC1 were scoring, the former would result in a non-scoring unit while the latter would result in a scoring unit. But every rule that bothers to specify what happens in these cases, does not discriminate; it's either at least one model, every model, or majority.

Now, given that "Scoring Unit" is a property of units rather than models, what should we do when GW explicitly tells us that a model "is" a scoring unit? That model might be an IC and able to join a unit, or in some cases even be part of a unit from the get-go, IIRC (Aun'Va?). To me, the simplest interpretation is that the model's unit is scoring; this is aguably a necessary interpretation even if the Warlord is by himself, since a model being scoring is just not something that matters in the rules. Surely we'd have to agree that a unit is scoring if it consists entirely of scoring models? But that's an assumption. Scoring models isn't a "thing".

RaW, though, we can simply take GW completely and utterly at their word, and it's not too bad. The model counts as a scoring unit. It's not always necessarily a unit of one model, but it - itself - always counts as a scoring unit, for the purposes of determining objectives. This means that the model itself would have to claim the objective, regardless of the unit it's a part of. I think that's the best interpretation, even if allowing a model in a unit to count as a unit in-itself is counter-intuitive - it is precisely what the rule says, intuitive or not.

Drones are the only case I'm aware of having a rule that specifically states they are not a scoring unit. The rules for scoring units grant the power to troops, instead of specifically denying it to every other unit type.

So in the warlord case, the unit can score. The argument of not making the unit a scoring unit is because people wanted to make them scoring units even after the warlord leaves.

The drone rule is non specific to upgrade drones or drone squadrons. If it only contains drones, it's non scoring and non denial. It is of no concern how the unit became that way.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The Warlord is a scoring unit. He joins a non-scoring unit. THis does not make the non-scoring unit scoring. If the trait said "The Warlord and his unit are a scoring unit" then it would.

Then what does it make it?

P. 39 "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

The warlord trait reads "Your Warlord is a scoring unit, even if he is a vehicle." P.111

He joins a unit, what happens?

Is the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, become a scoring unit and Why?

Assuming he joins an Elites unit, the unit does not become a scoring unit.

Does the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, cease to be a scoring unit and Why?

The Warlord's unit ceases to exist, and the parent unit determines scoring.

If he joins a unit of allied Space Marines, when the warlord is in a primary detachment of Blood Angels what happens and why?

More context please - nothing changes from above really.

It's really not that difficult.

I agree with Rigeld and Happyjew here.

RAW, the warlord unit is Scoring. When he joins another unit, he is no longer a unit, he becomes part of another, possibly non-scoring unit and hence is non-scoring now.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Is the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, become a scoring unit and Why?

Does the warlord and the unit he joined, since he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, cease to be a scoring unit and Why?

If he joins a unit of allied Space Marines, when the warlord is in a primary detachment of Blood Angels what happens and why?

Anyone have any clue as to what happens in these situations?

The Warlord ceases to be a scoring model whilst attached to a non-scoring unit. As I said this is exactly like a non-scoring IC joining a scoring unit.

Got any rules references to back that assertation up?

Baktru wrote:
RAW, the warlord unit is Scoring. When he joins another unit, he is no longer a unit, he becomes part of another, possibly non-scoring unit and hence is non-scoring now.

The rules do not say that though.

The rules say P. 39 "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

Note it says the IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

The IC counts as part of The Unit.

What is The unit?

Is it the unit with the attached IC, or is it the new unit with some interesting classification that is no longer just a unit without an IC.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Warlord's unit ceases to exist, and the parent unit determines scoring.

Citation needed.

DeahReaper: The Warlord being a Scoring unit in spite of being an HQ (or even a vehicle) would be a Special rule.

The rest comes from the IC rules:

1) He counts as a part of the unit (which may be non-scoring), he is no longer his own unit.
2) Special rules on the IC do not transfer to the unit as per the right column.
3) A number of other traits do mention "Your warlord, and his unit". This one does not.

I think those three together are sufficient to conclude that the Warlord is only scoring when he is not joined to a non-scoring unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
DR: You said:

{quote}
Is it the unit with the attached IC, or is it the new unit with some interesting classification that is no longer just a unit without an IC.
{quote}

That whole paragraph is rather clearly indicating "the unit" and "a unit" as the unit being joined by the IC. I see nothing in there that grants "the unit" any new status/powers/special rules etc. There is nothing in there that gives permission to treat the unit different. It even spells out explicitly that any special rules that apply to the IC, are not transferred to the unit in the right column.

Of course, in order to be coherent, the last lines in the left column should have "that unit" instead of "the unit" and a bit higher up, where it says the IC cannot leave whilst the IC or the unit is locked in combat as well, is nonsense. The IC is part of the unit at that point, so either the unit is locked in Combat, or it is not. The IC is with them.

Sloppy rules writing as usual, and I see no reason to allow the now joined unit to become scoring.

Baktru wrote:

That whole paragraph is rather clearly indicating "the unit" and "a unit" as the unit being joined by the IC.

The unit is the warlords unit, if he has joined them...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Baktru wrote:

That whole paragraph is rather clearly indicating "the unit" and "a unit" as the unit being joined by the IC.

The unit is the warlords unit, if he has joined them...

Which would matter (maybe) if that's what the rules said.
The actual rules say that your warlord is a scoring unit.

This means that, say, an IG command squad cannot benefit from this unless they lose all models but the Warlord.
It doesn't say the Warlord's unit. It says that your Warlord (a single model) is a scoring unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The confusion here comes from 1). There is no indication when to determine if a unit is scoring, 2). Most units are scoring throughout the entire game and don't change from scoring to non-scoring units.

Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where a unit can go from being scoring to non-scoring.

The only other one I can think of is if a Warlord with the warlord trait that makes him a scoring unit leaves the unit he's in. Then the unit would revert to being non scoring.

If the Warlord has Immovable Object and joins a unit, the unit does not become scoring. They are still a non-scoring unit, the Warlord is a scoring unit.

You're totally right, Happyjew. I didn't consult my rulebook before popping off at the mouth. I thought that it said 'The Warlord and his unit.' My bad. Since the Warlord trait is indeed a special rule, it would not confer to the unit. Huh. That makes that Warlord trait functionally useless for my army. Sorry 'bout that.

Nevertheless, drones left over from a firewarrior unit still aren't scoring.

rigeld2 wrote:

Pyrian wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Would not the specific out the general in this case?

The major problem with the "specific>general" rule of thumb is that reasonable people can disagree on which is more specific.

The major problem is people misapplying the rule.
You need to have a conflict. There's no conflict here whatsoever.
Units of only drones do not score.
Upgrade drones are normal members of the unit.

No conflict, both are applied, life goes on.

This drone question sounds like the single model question that came up with being joined by IC's a while back. The IC ruling only applied to units that were always purchased as only one model, not unit with a default size of 1 but could buy more. I though the drone rule would apply in the same only applying to units that started as drone only squads.

Different wording entirely from my understanding.

The drones won't score. It's much like a (normal, non-scoring) IC joined to a scoring unit.

The unit is scoring, even with the IC attached, but if all the scoring models die, leaving the IC there, he's no longer scoring.

Pyrian wrote:
There's a notion of "privilege" going to the joined unit which is popular on the internet but isn't really how the rule is worded and has no precedent in any rule, FAQ, or anything, really, once the IC is joined. Many people on the 'net would have you believe that the result of IC1 joining IC2 is quite distinct from IC2 joining IC1, and in cases like this, if IC1 were scoring, the former would result in a non-scoring unit while the latter would result in a scoring unit. But every rule that bothers to specify what happens in these cases, does not discriminate; it's either at least one model, every model, or majority.

Now, given that "Scoring Unit" is a property of units rather than models, what should we do when GW explicitly tells us that a model "is" a scoring unit? That model might be an IC and able to join a unit, or in some cases even be part of a unit from the get-go, IIRC (Aun'Va?). To me, the simplest interpretation is that the model's unit is scoring; this is aguably a necessary interpretation even if the Warlord is by himself, since a model being scoring is just not something that matters in the rules. Surely we'd have to agree that a unit is scoring if it consists entirely of scoring models? But that's an assumption. Scoring models isn't a "thing".

RaW, though, we can simply take GW completely and utterly at their word, and it's not too bad. The model counts as a scoring unit. It's not always necessarily a unit of one model, but it - itself - always counts as a scoring unit, for the purposes of determining objectives. This means that the model itself would have to claim the objective, regardless of the unit it's a part of. I think that's the best interpretation, even if allowing a model in a unit to count as a unit in-itself is counter-intuitive - it is precisely what the rule says, intuitive or not.

I concur with Pyrian. The model is scoring. There's no need or good reason to infer further than that; to confer that Scoring property onto a joined unit or to take it away from him. Some Warlords are unable to join units at all; some automatically come included in a unit they can't leave (IG, for example). The rule works perfectly fine if you just take it as it is. That model is scoring.

Do royal court characters that are the last remaining model in their unit score? If yes, then drones score, if not drones don't score.