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Hey guys. First post here on DakkaDakka, used to use 40kNation alot, however It's pretty much dead, yet this forum is booming with life!

Anyways, me and 2 other friends have decided to start a 1500pt Custodian army each, which will be 4500pts of Custodes in the end, however we thought that we will eventually need the Emperor of Mankind to lead us to battle, so I was given the immense honor of creating a BETA datasheet for the Emperor of Mankind. I've ran it through a number of people and most say its fine. However some fine tuning is in order and I want you guys to pick out the pro's and con's of this datasheet. Be as responsive and critical as possible. I want to make the datasheet fit within the fluff, be a powerful unit but also still fieldable without just tabling my opponent with this unit.

I uploaded the PDF to PDFcast so you can view it or download it at PDFcast or you can straight up download it underneath this post!
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/emperor-of-mankind-unofficial-datasheet-v1-6-final

Current version of the Datasheet; 1.6 FINAL
[Older versions are available on PDFcast]

maybe I am just incompetent or am missing something, but there are a lot of unexplained special rules and equipment.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
maybe I am just incompetent or am missing something, but there are a lot of unexplained special rules and equipment.

Oh my apologies, you must have to download the PDF to view it properly. I am new to PDFcast

Supreme Tactical Genius

What, he can scout his entire army or something?

Edit: made this before the above post.

Here's a better one:

WS 0 BS 0 STR 0 T 1 W 1 I 0 A 0 LD 2 SV -

Unit type: infantry (unique)

Wargear:

None

Special rules:

Corpse: the Emperor is an immobile corpse and can not move, shoot or assault (he will still fight back normally if assaulted).

Holy Relic: while the Emperor has no value in combat he is still a sacred relic to his followers. If the Emperor is removed as a casualty for any reason each other unit in the Emperor's army must make a leadership test at a -4 penalty. Any unit that fails this test is immediately removed from play as a casualty, their will to live broken by the revelation that their god was a false and irrelevant one. Any unit that passes the test gains the Preferred Enemy (the unit that killed the Emperor) USR for the remainder of the game. Special rules that alter LD values may not be used for this test, it is always taken on the model's base LD as printed in their stat line. Vehicles are automatically destroyed, as it is assumed that at least one member of the crew has become suicidal and detonated the vehicle's remaining fuel and ammunition.

 Adamshifnal wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
maybe I am just incompetent or am missing something, but there are a lot of unexplained special rules and equipment.

Oh my apologies, you must have to download the PDF to view it properly. I am new to PDFcast

Thank you, I see it now.

 Troike wrote:

Supreme Tactical Genius

What, he can scout his entire army or something?

Edit: made this before the above post.

I changed the name of that rule to "Commander of the Great Crusade" to stop any jokes

 Peregrine wrote:
Here's a better one:

WS 0 BS 0 STR 0 T 1 W 1 I 0 A 0 LD 2 SV -

Unit type: infantry (unique)

Wargear:

None

Special rules:

Corpse: the Emperor is an immobile corpse and can not move, shoot or assault (he will still fight back normally if assaulted).

Holy Relic: while the Emperor has no value in combat he is still a sacred relic to his followers. If the Emperor is removed as a casualty for any reason each other unit in the Emperor's army must make a leadership test at a -4 penalty. Any unit that fails this test is immediately removed from play as a casualty, their will to live broken by the revelation that their god was a false and irrelevant one. Any unit that passes the test gains the Preferred Enemy (the unit that killed the Emperor) USR for the remainder of the game. Special rules that alter LD values may not be used for this test, it is always taken on the model's base LD as printed in their stat line. Vehicles are automatically destroyed, as it is assumed that at least one member of the crew has become suicidal and detonated the vehicle's remaining fuel and ammunition.

Wow....... I like it

@OP: Its interesting... How much do you think hes worth? (in points)

Lucarikx

Pretty cool but the sword should definitively be strength 10 and the big e should at least be psychic master level 5 , other than that everything is seems awesome

Wow, this is actually epic.

Here's a few thoughts:

- The Emperor is a beast, we all know that, but if you are going to add a buffed up version of "It will not die" so he regenerates every turn, at least add a big drawback if he dies. Although I can feel Peregrine's hate for the IoM ( so much hate) he does have a valid point: If the Emperor dies, all units in X range should make a Ld check or something very bad happens and the opponent wins at least 1 VP, much like the death of an Ethereal.

- Removing Night Fighting just because he's the Emperor seems a bit too much.

Everything else looks awesome!

 earlofburger wrote:
Pretty cool but the sword should definitively be strength 10 and the big e should at least be psychic master level 5 , other than that everything is seems awesome

I wanted to keep the Emperor at Mastery Level 4, simply because that's the highest it's ever gone. Plus the Emperor can already manually pick 6 psychic powers and use 3 witchfire attacks each turn as well. Plus with his immunity to witchfire and 2+ DtW against all other powers, I think he's pretty safe from magic

Also I was contemplating making the sword Strength 10 and then changing the "Burning Blade" rule tbh, but his Claw is Strength 8, AP1 and can dish out a feth tonne of attacks. Plus for 1050pts, maybe strength 10 may be in order

@everyone, cheers for the feedback guys


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Wow, this is actually epic.

Here's a few thoughts:

- The Emperor is a beast, we all know that, but if you are going to add a buffed up version of "It will not die" so he regenerates every turn, at least add a big drawback if he dies. Although I can feel Peregrine's hate for the IoM ( so much hate) he does have a valid point: If the Emperor dies, all units in X range should make a Ld check or something very bad happens and the opponent wins at least 1 VP, much like the death of an Ethereal.

- Removing Night Fighting just because he's the Emperor seems a bit too much.

Everything else looks awesome!

I haven't added a buffed up version of "It will not die" because he can only regenerate 1 wound per turn, plus he cannot gain wounds from psychic powers which allow it either simply because that it broken beyond reason since players will just spam "Life Leech" when he's on 1 wound xD

Also I added this to "The Emperor of Mankind" special rule
"Furthermore, if the Emperor is removed from play then all allied units must take a morale check of -3 to their leadership (ignoring all rules that state a squad cannot take morale checks). Any squad that is caused to run away due to failing the leadership check will always attempt to regroup no matter what squad size until they regroup. For the rest of the game, all units are riddled with sadness and guilt for letting the Emperor fall in battle, all allies suffer -2 to their leadership for the rest of the game, but gain Hatred(all)."

Good enough?

 Adamshifnal wrote:
Also I added this to "The Emperor of Mankind" special rule
"Furthermore, if the Emperor is removed from play then all allied units must take a morale check of -3 to their leadership (ignoring all rules that state a squad cannot take morale checks). Any squad that is caused to run away due to failing the leadership check will always attempt to regroup no matter what squad size until they regroup. For the rest of the game, all units are riddled with sadness and guilt for letting the Emperor fall in battle, all allies suffer -2 to their leadership for the rest of the game, but gain Hatred(all)."

Good enough?

Too generous now that regrouping is so easy in 6th. Losing the Emperor should hurt, right now you have an overpowered god unit (which isn't going to be any fun to play against) with no real drawback at all. TBH allowing the Emperor to die should mean you automatically lose the game, the LD test at -4 to avoid auto-dying was the generous version of the rule.

This actually reminds me of a crazy idea I had a while back:

An entire apocalypse army, the Emperor and the 20 primarchs.

Then again, I'm the kind of guy who would bid 1 minute for deployment and just sit down a manta missile destroyer...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Adamshifnal wrote:
Also I added this to "The Emperor of Mankind" special rule
"Furthermore, if the Emperor is removed from play then all allied units must take a morale check of -3 to their leadership (ignoring all rules that state a squad cannot take morale checks). Any squad that is caused to run away due to failing the leadership check will always attempt to regroup no matter what squad size until they regroup. For the rest of the game, all units are riddled with sadness and guilt for letting the Emperor fall in battle, all allies suffer -2 to their leadership for the rest of the game, but gain Hatred(all)."

Good enough?

Too generous now that regrouping is so easy in 6th. Losing the Emperor should hurt, right now you have an overpowered god unit (which isn't going to be any fun to play against) with no real drawback at all. TBH allowing the Emperor to die should mean you automatically lose the game, the LD test at -4 to avoid auto-dying was the generous version of the rule.

Okay. So the obvious change to make is to increase the consequences for losing the Emperor. Since if you automatically lose the game, the enemy will just focus him down, plus please note that the Emperor will be played in a 10k apoc game against a lot of xeno's.

Instead of just complaining about how "overpowered" the unit is, how about suggesting multiple changes that you think should be made to the unit?

 Adamshifnal wrote:
Okay. So the obvious change to make is to increase the consequences for losing the Emperor. Since if you automatically lose the game, the enemy will just focus him down, plus please note that the Emperor will be played in a 10k apoc game against a lot of xeno's.

Don't like the consequences? Don't bring your sacred holy relic to the battlefield. You NEED that kind of harsh consequence to even remotely justify the kind of overpowered rules you've given him.

Oh, and a 10k apoc game? Who cares. The Emperor dies to a vortex missile on turn 1.

Instead of just complaining about how "overpowered" the unit is, how about suggesting multiple changes that you think should be made to the unit?

Throw out everything you have so far and forget you had the idea. Any attempt to put the Emperor into a game will either fail to represent a "fluffy" power level, or be overpowered idiocy that nobody will want to play against.

Throw out everything you have so far and forget you had the idea. Any attempt to put the Emperor into a game will either fail to represent a "fluffy" power level, or be overpowered idiocy that nobody will want to play against.

That really is the most horrible thing to say. All I'm trying to do is have a little fun by creating a playable character (which is in need of serious changes obviously) and all you can come up with is "let the idea go".

If you aren't going to bother help with this project, then don't bother commenting.

Throw out everything you have so far and forget you had the idea. Any attempt to put the Emperor into a game will either fail to represent a "fluffy" power level, or be overpowered idiocy that nobody will want to play against.

That's a little rough. He made a thread to appraise a ruleset he made. Appraise the ruleset as is, don't just make blanked statements about how representation is impossible. Doing so defeats the whole purpose of this thread.

 Adamshifnal wrote:
That really is the most horrible thing to say. All I'm trying to do is have a little fun by creating a playable character (which is in need of serious changes obviously) and all you can come up with is "let the idea go".

If you aren't going to bother help with this project, then don't bother commenting.

That IS help. You had an idea, but it's an idea that doesn't work in 40k and the best advice is to just give it up now instead of wasting more time in a futile attempt to make it work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Appraise the ruleset as is, don't just make blanked statements about how representation is impossible.

I made a blanket statement about it being impossible because it is impossible. A fluff-accurate representation of the Emperor is so far above everything else in 40k that the rules can't handle it. You end up with long pages of rules that effectively say "this unit can't be killed, and automatically kills anything it shoots or assaults", and the game is reduced to nothing more than a dice rolling contest as an entire army* focuses everything on the Emperor and hopes to roll well enough to kill him. There's no strategy involved, just "on a 2+ the Emperor wins the game".


*Since a fair point cost for a fluff-accurate Emperor would be thousands of points, if not tens of thousands, a game involving the Emperor will consist of a single Emperor model against an entire army.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Adamshifnal wrote:
That really is the most horrible thing to say. All I'm trying to do is have a little fun by creating a playable character (which is in need of serious changes obviously) and all you can come up with is "let the idea go".

If you aren't going to bother help with this project, then don't bother commenting.

That IS help. You had an idea, but it's an idea that doesn't work in 40k and the best advice is to just give it up now instead of wasting more time in a futile attempt to make it work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Appraise the ruleset as is, don't just make blanked statements about how representation is impossible.

I made a blanket statement about it being impossible because it is impossible. A fluff-accurate representation of the Emperor is so far above everything else in 40k that the rules can't handle it. You end up with long pages of rules that effectively say "this unit can't be killed, and automatically kills anything it shoots or assaults", and the game is reduced to nothing more than a dice rolling contest as an entire army* focuses everything on the Emperor and hopes to roll well enough to kill him. There's no strategy involved, just "on a 2+ the Emperor wins the game".


*Since a fair point cost for a fluff-accurate Emperor would be thousands of points, if not tens of thousands, a game involving the Emperor will consist of a single Emperor model against an entire army.

Your reasoning is ironclad. Point conceeded.

Well his stats should be like 11,11,11,11 or something, he defeated most of the primarch, swats demon with his pinky, and has the psychic power of a zillion tzeench demons.
LD 11

his only weakness is people judgement is like -999

I think I'll go else where to find help for this project then since obviously no one here seems to have a spark of enthusiasm for this datasheet. This unit will literally be fielded with Custodians and nothing else.

I came here on a good accord that people would deliver helpful advice which would help shape a fieldable and defeatable Emperor of Mankind. However the only advice I've gotten so far is "don't bother". Where is the creativity in that?! Obviously the Emperor of Mankind is going to be an extremely powerful unit, however the idea was to make him killable. I guess I'll have to do this by myself due to "Peregrine" being the crusher of fun. Learn to lighten up.

 Adamshifnal wrote:
I think I'll go else where to find help for this project then since obviously no one here seems to have a spark of enthusiasm for this datasheet. This unit will literally be fielded with Custodians and nothing else.

I came here on a good accord that people would deliver helpful advice which would help shape a fieldable and defeatable Emperor of Mankind. However the only advice I've gotten so far is "don't bother". Where is the creativity in that?! Obviously the Emperor of Mankind is going to be an extremely powerful unit, however the idea was to make him killable. I guess I'll have to do this by myself due to "Peregrine" being the crusher of fun. Learn to lighten up.

To be fair, you did get some helpful advice earlier in the thread.

But have a hug anyways. :: huggles ::

@ Peregrine

People said the primarchs would be impossible to do rules for and FW has some pretty balanced rules for them, if we can have primarchs then why not the big E ?

Everything seems in order except for the last little bit, but I might need a clarification. All deep strike units (except those listed specifically) can land within 24" BEHIND the geom? But only behind, not beside or in front? And his point cost seems a little high, but worth it for what you get. All in all, good job.

 Adamshifnal wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Wow, this is actually epic.

Here's a few thoughts:

- The Emperor is a beast, we all know that, but if you are going to add a buffed up version of "It will not die" so he regenerates every turn, at least add a big drawback if he dies. Although I can feel Peregrine's hate for the IoM ( so much hate) he does have a valid point: If the Emperor dies, all units in X range should make a Ld check or something very bad happens and the opponent wins at least 1 VP, much like the death of an Ethereal.

- Removing Night Fighting just because he's the Emperor seems a bit too much.

Everything else looks awesome!

I haven't added a buffed up version of "It will not die" because he can only regenerate 1 wound per turn, plus he cannot gain wounds from psychic powers which allow it either simply because that it broken beyond reason since players will just spam "Life Leech" when he's on 1 wound xD

Also I added this to "The Emperor of Mankind" special rule
"Furthermore, if the Emperor is removed from play then all allied units must take a morale check of -3 to their leadership (ignoring all rules that state a squad cannot take morale checks). Any squad that is caused to run away due to failing the leadership check will always attempt to regroup no matter what squad size until they regroup. For the rest of the game, all units are riddled with sadness and guilt for letting the Emperor fall in battle, all allies suffer -2 to their leadership for the rest of the game, but gain Hatred(all)."

Good enough?

This actually seems pretty good. -2 leadership really screws up most of the armies. Fury would be fluffy aswell

And Adam, remember everyone has their opinion. Some deliver them more bluntly than others, but he did have a point about the potential consequences of fielding an Emperor of Mankind. All you have to do is agree or disagree and move on.

xXLongfangXx wrote:
Everything seems in order except for the last little bit, but I might need a clarification. All deep strike units (except those listed specifically) can land within 24" BEHIND the geom? But only behind, not beside or in front? And his point cost seems a little high, but worth it for what you get. All in all, good job.

Yes the idea was allow a big deep strike area, but having units deepstriking ahead of the Emperor could be abused quite badly tbh
The points cost is quite justified due to his wargear and special abilities + psychic powers.

Deffiantly Psk level 5. At the momeant the most powerfull psk is Ahriman, At level 4. the emporer should be much better. Also he should have a denie the witch like Kharns. 2+. Unless i missed that in the rules.

I realy like it and you have made the data sheet look great as well. Actualy printed it out and have it in my folder full of custom rules and regs.

cerbrus2 wrote:
Deffiantly Psk level 5. At the momeant the most powerfull psk is Ahriman, At level 4. the emporer should be much better. Also he should have a denie the witch like Kharns. 2+. Unless i missed that in the rules.

I realy like it and you have made the data sheet look great as well. Actualy printed it out and have it in my folder full of custom rules and regs.

Cheers for the kind words dude! ;D I have an updated version of the datasheet, the Master Psyker has been changed slightly but the 2 unique powers haven't been changed.

Here are the amendments

"Master Psyker:
Due to being an immensely powerful Psyker, the Emperor of Mankind knows all Primaris Powers from Biomancy, Divination, Pyromancy, Telepathy and Telekenisis by default, plus the 2 unique powers stated below. If the player chooses, the Emperor can swap out any Primaris Power for a randomly generated power in the corresponding discipline, which cannot be exchanged back to the Primaris. The Emperor is allowed to fire 3 witchfire powers a turn, this also includes Vanquish. For the purposes of warp charges, the Emperor counts as A Mastery Level 6 Psyker.
Any wargear that may hinder the Emperor in the use of Psychic powers is ignored; the Emperor will always roll 2D6 at leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and can never be affected by Perils of the Warp.
Because the Emperor has a highly attuned mind, the Emperor can also use 2 unique psychic attacks which “deny the witch” can never affect. Vanquish and Dominate the Weak are automatically cast, also Vanquish can be used as an over watch weapon that is shot at Ballistic Skill 4. Vanquish can still be used as an over watch weapon even if the Emperor has used up all his warp charges."

Also for the 2+ DtW role you was on about, I have changed the Imperator Halo slightly as well. [Immunity to psychic powers was a little silly, not even Kairos Fateweaver has anything like that!]

"The Imperator Halo is a vast halo which protects the Emperors mind during the manifestation of psychic powers and against psychic attacks.
The Imperator Halo grants a 3+ deny the witch against all types of Psychic powers in a 18” bubble around the Emperor. Also the Emperor gains a 2+ deny the witch to himself and anyone within his unit. Furthermore when the Emperor casts a psychic power, he rolls 2D6 as normal, however if the Emperor fails a psychic test he isn’t affected by Perils of the Warp and does not use the power."

The Datasheet is still in early BETA stages so changes are being made quite frequently since the idea is to make an extremely powerful character, but is also killable! All contributions are taken into consideration

 Peregrine wrote:
Here's a better one:

WS 0 BS 0 STR 0 T 1 W 1 I 0 A 0 LD 2 SV -

Unit type: infantry (unique)

Wargear:

None

Special rules:

Corpse: the Emperor is an immobile corpse and can not move, shoot or assault (he will still fight back normally if assaulted).

Holy Relic: while the Emperor has no value in combat he is still a sacred relic to his followers. If the Emperor is removed as a casualty for any reason each other unit in the Emperor's army must make a leadership test at a -4 penalty. Any unit that fails this test is immediately removed from play as a casualty, their will to live broken by the revelation that their god was a false and irrelevant one. Any unit that passes the test gains the Preferred Enemy (the unit that killed the Emperor) USR for the remainder of the game. Special rules that alter LD values may not be used for this test, it is always taken on the model's base LD as printed in their stat line. Vehicles are automatically destroyed, as it is assumed that at least one member of the crew has become suicidal and detonated the vehicle's remaining fuel and ammunition.

Just stumbled onto this thread....This quote made my morning, lol.

 Centurionpainting wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Here's a better one:

WS 0 BS 0 STR 0 T 1 W 1 I 0 A 0 LD 2 SV -

Unit type: infantry (unique)

Wargear:

None

Special rules:

Corpse: the Emperor is an immobile corpse and can not move, shoot or assault (he will still fight back normally if assaulted).

Holy Relic: while the Emperor has no value in combat he is still a sacred relic to his followers. If the Emperor is removed as a casualty for any reason each other unit in the Emperor's army must make a leadership test at a -4 penalty. Any unit that fails this test is immediately removed from play as a casualty, their will to live broken by the revelation that their god was a false and irrelevant one. Any unit that passes the test gains the Preferred Enemy (the unit that killed the Emperor) USR for the remainder of the game. Special rules that alter LD values may not be used for this test, it is always taken on the model's base LD as printed in their stat line. Vehicles are automatically destroyed, as it is assumed that at least one member of the crew has become suicidal and detonated the vehicle's remaining fuel and ammunition.

Just stumbled onto this thread....This quote made my morning, lol.

Ditto.


To the OP: While FW has released statlines for Primarchs, they did so under the assumption that your opponents would be fielding one too. In fact, in their FAQ where it's asked if a Primarch can be used in regular 40k games, they make the big disclaimer that, while they can be used, the entries (and the pointages of the army lists) were not designed to be used in a regular 40k game because that was not the setting that they were designed and playtested for. The logical assumption to make would be to either create a "counter" entry in the form of a Chaos God to be used, or let the other person field a number of Primarchs equivalent to the power level of the Emperor.