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So with the farsight bomb featuring Farsight, shadowsun, battlesuits, and drones. Can I infiltrate them? Or just deepstrike? I only ask because it was a question a friend asked and claimed he read somewhere you could because Shadowsun has infiltrate. So I turn to the amazing people of Dakka to answer this debate.

Currently how deployment is, you can't attach them unless they all have Infiltrate. This can change if an FAQ comes out, but for the moment, no.

No, you can not infiltrate. All non-infiltrate models must be either placed into reserve or deployed on the table, and you can't attach an IC to a unit until you either deploy them both on the table within 2" coherency or place them both into reserve. So by the time you have an opportunity to attach Shadowsun to the unit the Farsight bomb is either on the table or committed to deep strike and it's too late.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/527398.page#5624245

In this thread, I was told the exact opposite (about whether or not they can join) by two users. Clearly, you cannot Infiltrate them. (Because of the way the two ICs interact with joining the squad. It's a whole thing. ) However, some people believe that you can indeed place Shadowsun and Farsight in the same unit in reserve and Deepstrike them. I don't have by BRB to hand to check the exact wording, but there is definitely some ambiguity, at least among the community. Hrrmmm...I wonder what other people think?

While technically by the RAW it doesn't work out that you can join an IC with infiltrate to a unit that doesn't have it to allow them to infiltrate, IMHO that is pretty clearly what the rules intend you to be abel to do.

Why do I say that?

Because in 5th edition, GW explicitly went out of their way to say you could in the FAQ (you were allowed to join the IC to the unit before deployment technically via the FAQ). True, they dropped that clarification from the 6th edition FAQ and didn't put the rule into the rulebook, so why do I still say that the rules are clearly intended to allow it?


Exhibit A: The rules for Infiltrate clearly disallow a character that doesn't have Infiltrate from joining a unit that has Infiltrate (but not vice-versa). There's just no reason that they couldn't have easily disallowed it in both directions if that's what they wanted.


Exhibit B: The SM Codex Errata for Shrike (pg 3 of the FAQ): "See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule). This is ERRATA for the codex, which is totally pointless if Shrike is not allowed to join a unit to give them all Infiltrate.


Exhibit C: Karandras Eldar Phoenix Lord has the 'Shadowstrike' special rule which gives: [i]"A squad including a model with Shadowstrike has the Infiltrate special rule. This ability cannot affect an Autarch -- his command is needed elsewhere." Again, why would Karandras have this special rule if he can't actually grant it to a unit.


So to me, in GW's mind they seem to still think that you can join an IC with infiltrate to a unit without it and allow that unit to Infiltrate.

BRB pg 38 of the rulebook states that as long as one model has infiltrate they all do. on the next page it states that ICs can begin the game and is considered part of the unit.

therefore shadowsun confers Infiltrate to the unit she belongs to since she is now one model in the unit that has infiltrate. while the rule states the unit does not confer to the IC, it does not state the reverse.

This is the same wording that allows ATSKNF to apply to guardsman squads, why would this wording suddenly not apply to infiltrate as well?

I think the only thing that comes into question here is Farsight. He is an IC so he cannot benefit from the unit's infiltrate. So Deepstrike may be the only option.

Paitryn wrote:
BRB pg 38 of the rulebook states that as long as one model has infiltrate they all do. on the next page it states that ICs can begin the game and is considered part of the unit.

therefore shadowsun confers Infiltrate to the unit she belongs to since she is now one model in the unit that has infiltrate. while the rule states the unit does not confer to the IC, it does not state the reverse.

This is the same wording that allows ATSKNF to apply to guardsman squads, why would this wording suddenly not apply to infiltrate as well?

The reasoning is that by the RAW, the only way an IC can join a game is to be deployed within coherency of it.

Given that a unit has to be deployed onto the table before an IC can be within coherency of it, there's no rules allowing the unit to be held back and deployed during Infiltration section of deployment.

It is highly likely to be an oversight (given what I've posted above), but yes, by the RAW the rules don't 'work' to allow an IC to join a unit in time to allow them all to infiltrate together.

I addended my post to add one important factor: Farsight cannot gain infiltrate from shadowsun. As he is also an IC, He cannot gain Infiltrate from the unit he is with (which would be shadowsun and bodyguards.)

 yakface wrote:
So to me, in GW's mind they seem to still think that you can join an IC with infiltrate to a unit without it and allow that unit to Infiltrate.

Or you could also argue that RAI is that those two units represent a special case where an IC is allowed to join before deployment and infiltrate the unit, since they are single characters with an explicit reference to doing so, not a generic character with just the infiltrate USR and nothing else. This would still exclude the Tau case since Shadowsun has no similar explicit statement (and in fact should fluff-wise join a unit of stealth suits which already have the rule).

You can most definitely join them in reserve and deepstrike. THere is absolutely no prohibition there, as the rules for ICs joining units in reserve allows this

If you want to make use of her Infiltrate, then join her to an infiltrating unit. Such as stealth suits.

She has absolutely no indication, none, in her rules that she is supposed to be able to bring non-infiltrating units with her.

Peregrine wrote:

 yakface wrote:
So to me, in GW's mind they seem to still think that you can join an IC with infiltrate to a unit without it and allow that unit to Infiltrate.

Or you could also argue that RAI is that those two units represent a special case where an IC is allowed to join before deployment and infiltrate the unit, since they are single characters with an explicit reference to doing so, not a generic character with just the infiltrate USR and nothing else. This would still exclude the Tau case since Shadowsun has no similar explicit statement (and in fact should fluff-wise join a unit of stealth suits which already have the rule).

But why go out of the way to make the rule work if ANY model in the unit has the ability AND fail to add the proviso against an IC with infiltrate joining a unit without it (when they have the opposite spelled out). In other words, why go through backflips to make the rule SEEM like it can work for ICs to join units and give them infiltrate only then to purposefully deny them the ability to do so because of the timing of when ICs join units during deployment?

It just doesn't make any sense in that scenario.

Paitryn wrote:I addended my post to add one important factor: Farsight cannot gain infiltrate from shadowsun. As he is also an IC, He cannot gain Infiltrate from the unit he is with (which would be shadowsun and bodyguards.)

That's actually not what the rules say. The rules only prohibit an IC from joining a unit of infiltrators during deployment. You still choose which order to join your ICs to a unit, so I actually don't see any issue with joining Farsight to the Bodyguard unit first and then joining Shadowsun (thus giving the whole unit infiltrate).

Again, RAW doesn't allow this unit to actually infiltrate this way, but you could certainly join them all together to Deep Strike them without issue IMHO.

 yakface wrote:
In other words, why go through backflips to make the rule SEEM like it can work for ICs to join units and give them infiltrate only then to purposefully deny them the ability to do so because of the timing of when ICs join units during deployment?

Maybe it was just at typo and there was supposed to be a similar sentence banning ICs with infiltrate from joining a unit. Maybe they assumed that the timing rules were already clear enough. Maybe the intent was to keep you from infiltrating a unit near an IC that was already deployed and stretching a "tail" of models back to the IC to attach it to the unit.

As for the "at least one model" thing, that's easily understood when you consider upgrade characters that aren't ICs, or equipment. For example, Harker in the next IG codex might just have the Infiltrate USR instead of giving it to the whole squad, or there might be an upgrade item that sergeants can take that gives them Infiltrate. Like the presence of the Missile Lock USR (so far not used by any unit) in the rulebook it could be nothing more than leaving room to add something in the future.

You still choose which order to join your ICs to a unit, so I actually don't see any issue with joining Farsight to the Bodyguard unit first and then joining Shadowsun (thus giving the whole unit infiltrate).

Because then you're joining an IC to a unit of infiltrators. If you're going to argue a RAI position then you can't really turn around and argue strict RAW that you can join them in a different order and produce the exact same end result but magically within the rules.

The rule is very clear that Farsight cannot join a unit with the infiltrators special rule during deployment. so if shadowsun is in the unit, that unit must be kept in reserve to stay legal. (as they are not deployed)

Declaration is a mess that would never work however, Farsight's wording says that if he is accompanied by a bodyguard unit it can contain 7 suits. But the bodyguard unit is now a separate unit, so it can be purchased in his name and joined by shadowsun and not farsight? Nothing says that the bodyguard unit must be attached at deployment. So if that were the case, Shadowsun could take over the suits, Farsight take a smaller unit (to deepstrike without error) and both would benefit.

RAI if your working with infiltrate coming from shadowsun working this would be something to work with.

RAW still doesnt help that in order for an IC to join the unit, it must be deployed with it or kept in reserve.