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I know the baleflamer is full of win, but does anyone uses hades? I am thinking they may make some useful anti flyer. Yes I am aware they will only hit half their shots.

What I have heard from others and what I personally agree with is putting the hades on the second or third drake you bring.

Two nasty templates are normally enough and having the extra AA firepower is a solid bonus.

Problem with the hades is that you only get an average 4 S7 hits. This if good against av 11 armor but doesn't really help against av 12. the autocannon is not bad per se it just has a really high opertunity cost for being better at only 1 thing and worse at everything else.

I've been playing a DW army lately to sort of offset the amount of Helldrakes I've been seeing due to the fact that the Baleflamer isn't nearly so good against terminators. I can see switching out the flamer for the Hades if you're in a situation like that. At least for my DW, facing 3 Hades Drakes is a lot scarier than the Baleflamer variety.

Pony_law wrote:
Problem with the hades is that you only get an average 4 S7 hits. This if good against av 11 armor but doesn't really help against av 12. the autocannon is not bad per se it just has a really high opertunity cost for being better at only 1 thing and worse at everything else.

The Hades is S8 actually

Pony_law wrote:
Problem with the hades is that you only get an average 4 S7 hits. This if good against av 11 armor but doesn't really help against av 12. the autocannon is not bad per se it just has a really high opertunity cost for being better at only 1 thing and worse at everything else.

Actually this would be an average of 2 STR 8 hits. That's where it stops me... 2 hits... ouch.

Pony_law wrote:
Problem with the hades is that you only get an average 4 S7 hits. This if good against av 11 armor but doesn't really help against av 12. the autocannon is not bad per se it just has a really high opertunity cost for being better at only 1 thing and worse at everything else.

An average of 2 S8 actually but still better anti flier weaponry than the baleflamer in the fact that the baleflamer cannot hit fliers at all.

Why do you need a Hades Autocannon when you can just Vector Strike it?? :S

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Why do you need a Hades Autocannon when you can just Vector Strike it?? :S

Because vector strike alone won't likely kill most flyers in one pass. Adding the hades with daemon forge really helps.

I think it depends on the rest of the list. If you have the room for other AA options like a defense line with quad gun, or a demon prince with wings that can also vector strike then you wouldn't need the hades autocannon. If your army already has a lot of anti-infantry focused units (Bezerkers, Thousand sons, etc) then the baleflamer is probably a redundancy and you might be better off with the hades. Although, overall the baleflamer does an exceptional job at roasting MEQ.

Why do you need AA firepower?

Nothing short of Vendettas will threaten a Heldrake (at least, nothing that a Hades Autocannon would help against). And Vendettas will blow you out of the sky no matter what weapon you're packing.

There's simply no reason to spend so many points just for a hades autocannon that can also vector strike.

It's quite easy to down Helldrakes with Nightscythes.

Vaktathi wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Problem with the hades is that you only get an average 4 S7 hits. This if good against av 11 armor but doesn't really help against av 12. the autocannon is not bad per se it just has a really high opertunity cost for being better at only 1 thing and worse at everything else.

The Hades is S8 actually

Plus it has a 360 degree turret so you can Vector Strike an enemy Flyer (2-4 S7 auto-hits are nothing to complain about) and then fire S8 at the rear armor of the Flyer, which is usually AV 10.

From what I've read, if you take 3 Heldrakes the Hades is worth it on the 3rd. Most lists I've seen with 2 Heldrakes still take Baleflamers on both just because its that good.

I would lean totally against Hades cannon on the helldrake.

If you run 2-3 you can easily double vector anything out of the sky.

Might be fun to be different, but bale flamer is "all full of win" in all the right ways.

I never Use the Bale Flamer, It is probably because I play against a necron player most of the time, And the Hades Does a grand job of dropping the necron fliers out of the sky. My one helldrake normally handles two of them rather well.

A Heldrake with Hades will average 2.98 HP after vector striking and shooting an av11 flier. This takes into account the use of daemon forge, evading (not against vector-strikes tho), and the fact that 1/6 of your pen results will destroy said flyer outright (I counted an explosion as 3 HP).

Not great, but anti-air comes at a premium these days..

If I were taking three Drakes, I would give one of them the Hades.

Bale flamer for me. My desire for Anti-air suggest the Hades Autocannon but I would feel sheepish taking an awesome hulking mechanical dragon which can not flame.

If your opponent doesn't take armour or flyers the autocannon is lost. With the flamer you still get the vector strike option for armour.

Well, it really boils down to a matter of what's more expensive, another helldrake, or a flakk missile upgrade for those havocs you should probably be taking already?

Plus, by that point, you're getting close to considering the land raider. You've already got a roughly 4 in 6 chance of landing a +1S shot that's twice as likely to blow up a flier outright on a penetrating result. Plus, it's better against ground-borne targets, and it comes with an assault ramp transport.

Seems a better overall way to spend points.

Thokt wrote:
It's quite easy to down Helldrakes with Nightscythes.

By my math, a nightscythe averages .73 HP off of a Heldrake per turn, before IWND.

Congratulations, 4 nightscythes all shooting at a heldrake at once can statistically kill it.

How exactly is a single hades autocannon going to protect you from that, again? Remember, you can only shoot it at one target per turn.

BrotherOfBone wrote:Why do you need a Hades Autocannon when you can just Vector Strike it?? :S

Vector strikes are random and only S7.

minigun762 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Why do you need a Hades Autocannon when you can just Vector Strike it?? :S

Because vector strike alone won't likely kill most flyers in one pass. Adding the hades with daemon forge really helps.

This guy knows his gak

djdutton wrote:I think it depends on the rest of the list. If you have the room for other AA options like a defense line with quad gun, or a demon prince with wings that can also vector strike then you wouldn't need the hades autocannon. If your army already has a lot of anti-infantry focused units (Bezerkers, Thousand sons, etc) then the baleflamer is probably a redundancy and you might be better off with the hades. Although, overall the baleflamer does an exceptional job at roasting MEQ.

I've got double Vindicators, Havocs and Oblits for anti infantry. For anti air I just have the Heldrakes and weight of fire power.

reaper with no name wrote:Why do you need AA firepower?

Nothing short of Vendettas will threaten a Heldrake (at least, nothing that a Hades Autocannon would help against). And Vendettas will blow you out of the sky no matter what weapon you're packing.

There's simply no reason to spend so many points just for a hades autocannon that can also vector strike.

Why do I need anti air fire power? Is that a serious question? I need anti air to stop fliers. I am not bothered about Vendettas taking out a Heldrake I need the Heldrake to take out Vendetta etc.

Ailaros wrote:Well, it really boils down to a matter of what's more expensive, another helldrake, or a flakk missile upgrade for those havocs you should probably be taking already?

Plus, by that point, you're getting close to considering the land raider. You've already got a roughly 4 in 6 chance of landing a +1S shot that's twice as likely to blow up a flier outright on a penetrating result. Plus, it's better against ground-borne targets, and it comes with an assault ramp transport.

Seems a better overall way to spend points.

Flakk missiles are way too expensive, though cheaper than another Heldrake, however the Heldrake brings so much more than just missile launchers.

Also a Land Raider isn't really the same for anti air as a Heldrake.

What does a flying autocannon bring that missile launcher havocs don't? What can't twin-linked lascannons do that an autocannon with skyfire can?

Furthermore, I'm going to reiterate what you simply passed over. Why do you need anti-air in the first place? CSM are more than capable of winning the ground game and rendering fliers rather pointless. Spending a huge number of points for a crappy AA weapon doesn't seem the way to handle this problem.

 Ailaros wrote:
What does a flying autocannon bring that missile launcher havocs don't?

The Heldrake will likely be better able to withstand return fire, and it can reroll wounds/armor pens once per game, in addition to being highly maneuverable and able to gain favorable LoS and armor angles, on top of still being able to Vector Strike.

What can't twin-linked lascannons do that an autocannon with skyfire can?

Average 2 hits a turn against aircraft instead of one every two turns.

Furthermore, I'm going to reiterate what you simply passed over. Why do you need anti-air in the first place? CSM are more than capable of winning the ground game and rendering fliers rather pointless. Spending a huge number of points for a crappy AA weapon doesn't seem the way to handle this problem.

If they're facing another CSM army with heldrakes, or something like Stormravens that can really impact the ground game?

Vaktathi wrote:

Ailaros wrote:What does a flying autocannon bring that missile launcher havocs don't?

The Heldrake will likely be better able to withstand return fire, and it can reroll wounds/armor pens once per game, in addition to being highly maneuverable and able to gain favorable LoS and armor angles, on top of still being able to Vector Strike.

Havocs can hide in ruins, though. Plus, even if it is more durable, what's the point, given that it does so much less damage?

Vaktathi wrote:

What can't twin-linked lascannons do that an autocannon with skyfire can?

Average 2 hits a turn against aircraft instead of one every two turns.

 Ailaros wrote:
What does a flying autocannon bring that missile launcher havocs don't? What can't twin-linked lascannons do that an autocannon with skyfire can?

Furthermore, I'm going to reiterate what you simply passed over. Why do you need anti-air in the first place? CSM are more than capable of winning the ground game and rendering fliers rather pointless. Spending a huge number of points for a crappy AA weapon doesn't seem the way to handle this problem.

Flakk Havocs are very squishy while a Heldrake is not.

An autocannon heldrake will average 3str7 VS hits and 2str8 autocannon hits while flakk havocs only get 2.66 str7 flakk hits. That is to say that the heldrake puts out about twice the damage of the squishy flakk havocs.

The heldrake can reroll to pen once per game which is something.

hades autocannons can pin(has the pinning special rule). Not sure how useful that is, but it is something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Ailaros wrote:What does a flying autocannon bring that missile launcher havocs don't?

The Heldrake will likely be better able to withstand return fire, and it can reroll wounds/armor pens once per game, in addition to being highly maneuverable and able to gain favorable LoS and armor angles, on top of still being able to Vector Strike.

Havocs can hide in ruins, though. Plus, even if it is more durable, what's the point, given that it does so much less damage?

Hades drakes do MORE damage, not less. 2-4 str 7 and 0-4 str8 hits vs 0-4 str7 hits.
average
3 str7 and 2 str8 vs 2.66 str7. The heldrake does nearly twice the damage.

Im going to be TFG and say .. well don't you wish you had 3 twinlinked skyfire lascannons ? --- lol joke aside -- I would say take the Hades autocannon as it can provide good solid firepower against a full heavy mech army in the event all else fails , just my couple cents

 Ailaros wrote:

Havocs can hide in ruins, though.

That only makes them harder to kill against Ap3 weapons (whereas the Heldrake effectively always is in cover), and if they're hiding out of LoS, they're likely not shooting either.

Plus, even if it is more durable, what's the point, given that it does so much less damage?

4 S8 shots plus a potential vector strike compared with 4 S8 (S7 if used in an AA role) shots...? And being more durable means it's likely there to put more shots out during the course of a game. Against an AV12 flyer, the Havocs are doing an average of 0.074 explodes results and 0.88 HP's, the BS3 Hades Autocannon is on average diong 0.1111 explodes and 1 HP, not factoring in possible Vector Strike.

2 worse hits, though. The autocannon averages 1 HP against AV12 with a 1 in 9 chance to wreck it outright. The lascannon averages 2/3ds of a HP with a 1 in 6 chance of wrecking outright.

The accuracy makes all the difference in the world here. 2 Tl'd lascannons will on average inflict 0.10183 Explodes results against an AV12 flyer, a BS3 Hades Autocannon will inflict an average of 0.11111, ~9% better. When in comes to HP's, the two lascannons will inflict an average of 0.4074 HP damage, the Hades Autocannon on average 1.

Doesn't matter how powerful the gun is, if you can barely hit the target, an otherwise weaker but higher RoF weapon will do better. Same reason Hydras are better anti-aircraft platforms than Leman Russ Vanquishers.

... and then the lascannons are better against terminators and monstrous creatures and heavier vehicles.

Yes, but that's not why you're generally taking the autocannon.

Is spending a huge number of points on a weapon that does a bad job handling these threats worth it?

Except, as shown above, it's not bad at it.

Furthermore, not every army brings those two fliers. Do you want to be playing with a pretty sizeable handicap against those armies that don't?

4 S8 shots on an AV12 5++ IWND Flyer with multiple S7 Ap3 vector strike hits is going to be useful against lots of opponents. Perhaps not as stupendously auto-take as the Baleflamer, but if one can't get reasonable use out of that, then something is wrong.

Also, you should be bringing enough anti-tank weapons anyways. Said anti-tank weapons can still take down stormravens and helldrakes. Not many lists are going to be bringing several storm ravens AND several land raiders in the same list. Just shift the necessary firepower that you're already bringing upwards. You don't need skyfire to take down a flier.

You don't *need* skyfire, no, but it makes it a hell of a lot easier. There's a reason fliers are so dominant in the metagame right now and lack of skyfire is a big part of that.

I don't think flakk havocs are winning any awards for lethality. Just my 2 cents. Can't CSM get divination? Use prescience on lascannon havocs, and the lascannons can kill all kinds of other stuff too.

They can but only with allied Daemons Lord of Change or Herald of tzeentch if i'm correct.

You'd need to ally Daemons in for it. Though the thought of casting prescience on a squad of 3 Oblits, particularly with assault cannons, is mouthwatering.

Prescience + forgefiend... i might actually take one then!