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The Core Question:

So as a High Elf player we used to go with a big block of Spears for core, mainly to just get something that wasn't awful so we could move on to the things that were going to actually win the game for us.

My question is: Has anything changed? We now have Silverhelms, Reavers, and Cheaper Archers etc. Are any of these really a better and is there a new default choice? Or is it going to depend on the rest of your army, and the strengths and weaknesses of the rest of your choices?

Currently I'm being tempeted by a unit of 15 SH backed up by some archers. I'm not sure if that's because I think they'll be awesome or because my wife gives me crap about never using the SH she painted. =)

MSU Core seems to be a common tactic, especially over on Ulthan.net. And by MSU core, I mean archers (10-12), Reavers (5-6) and Silverhelms (5-6). A lot of people tend to avoid the spears, unless they are taking a shadow mage for mindrazor. It's all based on preference though.

I will say, if you are planning on taking a big unit of Silverhelms, you will probably want to mount a Prince and Noble and put them in the unit as well.

I'm still sticking with my large block of spears at the moment, largely because I don't want to buy tons of Silver Helms, and it's working fine for me so far. In a 2400 Point list I'd take about 40 Spears, usually bunkering my Archmage here, 10 Archers to eliminate chaff and 5 Reavers just to be a nuisance and to get some use out of those IoB models. It's been working well so far.

I think Silver Helms are a solid choice, but like jayzerus says, you best running a "Bus" with them, so sticking a Prince and/or (BSB) Noble in there to add some hitting power. To me, a BSB Noble with BotWD seems like a good choice, since Silver Helms are pulverised by Metal Magic otherwise.

A lot of it depends on what you've got in your Special Units too. You want your units to support each other. If you're running Dragon Princes and/or MSU Swordmasters, you need a large unit of infantry to hold up enemy units to strip steadfast and provide ranks and/or ensure you can set up a flank charge. Conversely, if you're running Phoenix Guard, they can act as your anvil, so will couple nicely with a large unit of Silver Helms.

Playing against elves, spearmen and archers are roughly equally scary ie not very, but not ignorable. A BSB with Razor banner in spears makes a big block VERY scary though...
Silverhelms seem ok, but not faced a big unit yet. Haven't faced Reavers yet, or whatever the fifth core is.
Surprised at how weak Dragon Princes seem to be...

I tried 4 MSU reavers with muso and 8 silverhelms last night at 2400(mincore) and and was nice having all the drops. With only being able to field two MSU eagle units now I can see reavers becoming popular for chaff and as other above have stated spearelves are still situational depending on other army choices.

I've had good fun and mileage out of a highly mobile core made up of 3 units of 6 silver helms and 2 units of 5 reavers.

That gives me good redirectors, chaff hunters and war machine killers.

Niteware wrote:
Playing against elves, spearmen and archers are roughly equally scary ie not very, but not ignorable. A BSB with Razor banner in spears makes a big block VERY scary though...

A poor use of a BSB, you need to give him other defensive items, besides Razor banner can go well with Phoenix Guard.

Niteware wrote:

Silverhelms seem ok, but not faced a big unit yet. Haven't faced Reavers yet, or whatever the fifth core is.
Surprised at how weak Dragon Princes seem to be...

Silver Helms are somewhat overpriced but not excessively so and the 2+ is useful.

Niteware wrote:

Surprised at how weak Dragon Princes seem to be...

I've found Dragon Princes quite good so far. I just run a unit of 5 with a muso, to get the odd flank charge to help out, or to pick of weakened units. I can see a large unit being useful as well, especially with a Noble with Khaine's Ring to add some more hitting power and try to make better use of the 6+ Ward they have.

MMU High elves seems to work pretty well.
Blocks of 15 of the elite stuff, blocks of 20 spears.
Then a fire phoenix or two to fly over enemy buses.

-Matt

Thanks all for the replies.
I'm thinking of keeping Some Spears and going with Archers and a unit of Reavers for now to back up my elite infantry.

Of course every day I change my mind. I need to play more and think less. So many toys so little free time.

Cheers

How come noone is suggesting the lothern sea guard? They seem like a really good choice, slightly more expensive but I think the versatility of having both weapons is totally worth 2pts per model vs spearmen, or 1pt vs archers.

Im completely new to fantasy, so please feel free to tell me just how wrong I am.

Clidefrog wrote:
How come noone is suggesting the lothern sea guard? They seem like a really good choice, slightly more expensive but I think the versatility of having both weapons is totally worth 2pts per model vs spearmen, or 1pt vs archers.

Im completely new to fantasy, so please feel free to tell me just how wrong I am.

Spearmen come with the shield (so they are 3 points cheaper than a seaguard with shield).
Archers get 6" more range, meaning seaguard have to move turn 1 to shoot; archers don't.
For the spear to do anything, you need to be 4 ranks deep (since you normally fight in 3 ranks).

So:
If you're less then 20 models, just take archers.
If you are a lot more than 20 (say 40, for all ranks fighting) , then the 3 points a model cheaper really adds up.

-Matt

Alright, how about this, you move your unit into range and let loose a full round of shooting. The next turn your opponent charges and you stand and shoot and then get ASF in four ranks, that should do a lot of damage. Before they even get to touch you. It might be worth it.

Barrywise wrote:
Alright, how about this, you move your unit into range and let loose a full round of shooting. The next turn your opponent charges and you stand and shoot and then get ASF in four ranks, that should do a lot of damage. Before they even get to touch you. It might be worth it.

It's ok, but it is a ton of points.
Typically, I see the shooting break down like this:
Move and fire at long range (-2 to hit)
Fire at short range
Stand and fire.
With 30 shots with movement at long it's ~10 hits.
Short range is 20 hits.
Stand and Fire is ~15 hits.
All said and done, you're doing 45 S3 hits as an opponent closes in, when you go first.

If you go 2nd, it's long, short with me backing up, then stand and fire (if I don't back up, they're too close for me to stand and fire).
That's 15 hits, 15 hits, then 15 hits (again 45 S3 hits).

In combat, you're getting 28 to 40 attacks (21 to 30 S3 hits).
It's a solid unit, but it's soft and squishy, and very expensive.

-Matt

Spearmen can also take a Magic Banner, which, despite being only up to 25pts, is really very handy indeed.

Not going to lie, I love the flexibility and movement capabilities of an all mounted core. The ability to have all your core in your army moving 9 or 18 in a turn is just amazing.

I have also found success with msu archer units of 12 in a 4 wide, 3 deep formation. Very small frontage with all of its shots still.

furbyballer wrote:
Not going to lie, I love the flexibility and movement capabilities of an all mounted core. The ability to have all your core in your army moving 9 or 18 in a turn is just amazing.

I have also found success with msu archer units of 12 in a 4 wide, 3 deep formation. Very small frontage with all of its shots still.

All mobile is good, but I keep coming back to 1 thing with high elves. How is any given build going to break steadfast?
As for the archers, I'd go 5 wide 3 deep. It's only 3 more archers, and you'll most likely get a +1 combat res, and even be able to flank charge and strip ranks.

-Matt

furbyballer wrote:
Not going to lie, I love the flexibility and movement capabilities of an all mounted core. The ability to have all your core in your army moving 9 or 18 in a turn is just amazing.

I would suggest having plenty of cavalry on the side and a regular spear plus elite infantry base for most games. This way you can play a feature list of a cavalry army. I recommend this. I normally play infantry but in 6th had a second fully mounted high elf army, I am glad this is back, I like the theme and with the skycutter can now take mounted artillery.

furbyballer wrote:
I have also found success with msu archer units of 12 in a 4 wide, 3 deep formation. Very small frontage with all of its shots still.

Take 15 and a command group, then you keep your rank bonus. It might matter.

I feel that Seaguard are the best infantry core choice we have, for only 12pts. we get bow, spear, light armor, hand weapon and a shield which even then is only 2pts. more then an archer. Yes you get 6 more inches with archers but you will fold if they get charged and with spears you can get more but with Seaguard you have the ability to weaken your opponent before they get to you. Its a no brainer to me but I can see why other people consider the other infantry core choices.

Other then that I am a big fan of the Ellyrian Reavers and Helms as core choices. Already am thinking of designing a "Riders of Rohan" themed army by taking an army nearly made up completely of both of those units.

 gmaleron wrote:
I feel that Seaguard are the best infantry core choice we have, for only 12pts. we get bow, spear, light armor, hand weapon and a shield which even then is only 2pts. more then an archer. Yes you get 6 more inches with archers but you will fold if they get charged and with spears you can get more but with Seaguard you have the ability to weaken your opponent before they get to you. Its a no brainer to me but I can see why other people consider the other infantry core choices.

Other then that I am a big fan of the Ellyrian Reavers and Helms as core choices. Already am thinking of designing a "Riders of Rohan" themed army by taking an army nearly made up completely of both of those units.

The ability for archers to fight in 3 ranks has really gimped the need for spears.
Elves fighting in 3/4 ranks for normal/horde vs 4/5 for spears isn't really that good of an upgrade. What worse, for sea guard to gain any sort of advantage from spears, they are giving up on a bit of their shooting.
All seaguard really have going for them is light armor and shield. I rate 5+ armor (no parry) as not being worth 2 points.

What sea guard do have is models that look much better than the fat-face archers or the hamfist spear elves.

Agreed. I see archers, reavers, and silver helms as our best core options.

Do Sea Helms not have a hand weapon too? Then they have better armour than archers and a parry.

Niteware wrote:
Do Sea Helms not have a hand weapon too? Then they have better armour than archers and a parry.

They have a special weapon, aka spears, and thus must use the spears and cannot opt to use HW+shield.

The best core option in the book, in my experience, is units of 6 silver helms. I've had so many good experiences with them. They can tag in on the flank to deal 6 S5 ASF attacks, can redirect and hunt war machines. All for 138 points. Now. If only my Dark Elves had a core option that versatile.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
They can tag in on the flank to deal 6 S5 ASF attacks, can redirect and hunt war machines. All for 138 wounds. Now. If only my Dark Elves had a core option that versatile.

Each Silver has 23 wounds? ;D

 Sigvatr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
They can tag in on the flank to deal 6 S5 ASF attacks, can redirect and hunt war machines. All for 138 wounds. Now. If only my Dark Elves had a core option that versatile.

Each Silver has 23 wounds? ;D

NEVER MIND. I AM TIRED. NOTHING IS HAPPENING. MOVE ALONG.

I know dat feel brah

Regarding the unit: I still like my wolvies. Sure, they only have S4, poor LD and no ASF, but they also come at -80 pts.

I think the biggest thing we got is different options.


Reavers (fast cav) in core is just terrific, even in MSU loadout form.

Spears are still decent for what they are.

LSG seem like a polarizing unit - some like them, some loathe them. I fall into the like camp. I like that i can get a couple turns of solid shooting before i bring a big spear unit to bear.

Archers - consensus on archers is that they are overpriced for what they bring to the table. I personally don't use them, and if i want bows, i take LSG for a small bit more per model.

Silverhelms - great for a character bus, or just a great armor saved, hard hitting on charge, unit. When i use them its usually in MSU or 10, though i've been tempted to run a cav lord in a unit of 14-15 for lulz.


The point drops for some / most of the above, along with just having the option of something aside from archers / spearmen / archer-spearmen is great.


You can also tailor your core for what you want to do with the list, which is nice too.

Also note that army wide martial prowess is interesting for Silver Helms (whereas spearmen of both varieties already had it), and any unit with bows potentially can get some good mileage out of martial prowess - in particular LSG, as i don't really see anyone realistically taking 30 archers. Whereas if you're okay with the points cost differential, 30+ sea guard makes lots of sense.


So yeah, i'd say it changed. I can totally see (and do) taking a list with one or both type of cav in the core. I'm more likely than ever to take LSG and spearmen. Archers are the only thing that have not changed for me, but that's just me. I didn't take them in the last army book, and i don't now.

-- haight

Archers as core have become my new favorite option. I used to run them in smaller units with just a musician. Now I take at least 30 with a full command, and plop at least a level 2 with high magic. I make sure to get walk between worlds if at all possible.

30+ shots every round has proven VERY effective at chaff killing, war machine hunting, and elite hunting. Walk between worlds has been priceless with them, because as soon as they get close, all my archers are gone, and facing you to shoot you all over again. Flying ghosts with arrows. I love it.

 Aipoch wrote:
Archers as core have become my new favorite option. I used to run them in smaller units with just a musician. Now I take at least 30 with a full command, and plop at least a level 2 with high magic. I make sure to get walk between worlds if at all possible.

30+ shots every round has proven VERY effective at chaff killing, war machine hunting, and elite hunting. Walk between worlds has been priceless with them, because as soon as they get close, all my archers are gone, and facing you to shoot you all over again. Flying ghosts with arrows. I love it.

Interesting use for that ! Never really thought of that before.

I've been using walk between worlds to set up future rear and flank charges / get at problem back field pieces.


I might have to try that, and would definitely be a case-maker for archers. Sure its a pricey module, but its definitely a good idea.

-- Haight