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Every now and then I think of some solutions to bring Space Marines closer to the fluff.

I`m not talking about adopting movie marines rules. Nothing so agressive that would limit me to 10 guys in a 1500 point game. I like to think of simple modifications that would give the FEEL of playing with fluff space marines, while not actually paying the points for one.

Currently, I`m willing to try the following adaptations with my game club:

- Give all marines +1 in BS and WS
- Give them rerolls on armour saves

I`m not sure yet how many more points each marine should cost due to this, but I believe that should be around 10+ for regular troops. Anyway, not the subject of this topic, here.

These simple improvements would be nice because:

- marines would hit most enemy troops in melee on a 3+ (orks, dire avengers, necrons, tyranids);
- marines would only miss their shots on rolls of 1;
- power armour would be much more efficient against small arms fire.

There you go. Not an excessively costly marine with a much more accurate performance.

Forget ideas such as giving them more wounds, that would be hell to keep track of if you have 20-30 scrubs on the table. What do you guys think?

They would need to cost at least 35 points per model. Improving both cc and shooting, while also making their save better than a terminator against all but ap3 weapons.

Just an addendum: I don`t like making marines S5 T5, that is Oghre level, Daemon Prince level. Doesn`t feel right.

Also, rerollable armour saves should apply to termies and artificer armour, too.

Now you would have a truly one-man-army suit of armour, while still leaving it as vulnerable as always to penetrating weapons.

The beauty of such alterations is that everything would seem to fall in place. For example:
- You would have scouts as BS4 AND WS4, greater than Imperial Guard;
- Tacticals would have greater BS and WS than veteran guards (stormtroopers)
- Power Armour would be much, much better than lesser suits, such as Carapace and flakk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
They would need to cost at least 35 points per model.

I suppose the overall army cost would be about 20-30% higher, which means 20-30% less models on the table.

That would still be a sizeable (fun) force to play, while now having a truly ELITE feel.


But anyway, 30% less models on the table is reason enough GW is never going to improve marines that much...

Just as long as we make basic guardsmen BS 4, and lasguns STR 10 AP 1 to represent the fact that my army isn't completely overpowered like I want it to be.

Or we could just accept that most of the fluff is in-universe propaganda written from an Imperial perspective, so the heroic deeds of the space marine heroes are exaggerated to suit their propaganda-hero status and their true effectiveness is what we see on the table.

 Peregrine wrote:
Just as long as we make basic guardsmen BS 4, and lasguns STR 10 AP 1 to represent the fact that my army isn't completely overpowered like I want it to be.

That`s a possibility. Completely off topic, though.

matgc wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Just as long as we make basic guardsmen BS 4, and lasguns STR 10 AP 1 to represent the fact that my army isn't completely overpowered like I want it to be.

That`s a possibility. Completely off topic, though.

No, it's completely on-topic. Just like your idea it's nothing more than "I want my army to be more powerful", and completely inappropriate. Re-rollable terminator armor is in the same absurd category of STR 10 AP 1 lasguns, and nobody is ever going to want to play against it.

Better yet, if you want a truly fluffy Space Marine battle, just give yourself a 500-1500 point advantage. Pardon if this sounds rude but that is honestly how Space Marines work. They don't hit the enemy fairly. They come in like a surgical blade, strike deep, and then extract. Along with that, from what I have gathered, BS3 is phenomenal! Conscripts only have a bs of 2. That being the assumption, BS is the average skill of a beginner trying to pick up a gun and shooting it. BS3 seems to be decent to relatively good standing. BS4 is something that few normal guardsman can even reach.

In the end, I feel they are accurately represented (without breaking the game with having a Space Marine have 500 point advantages or more)

 StarTrotter wrote:
BS4 is something that few normal guardsman can even reach.

Yes, but SM are described as having legendary precision...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I remember the Steel Legion Stormtroopers on Helsreach being amazed about Black Templars` performance.

That means they shouldn`t all shoot at the same level of skill.

Theres some donkey-cave whose fought ten thousand battles. His ability? Re-roll reserves.

I think 4/4/4/... statline is more than enough for these fgts

When GW can accurately reflect the horror that us xenos are supposed to pose, then sure, go ahead, upgrade your marines. Though at that time, you'd probably propose another buff.

matgc wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
BS4 is something that few normal guardsman can even reach.

Yes, but SM are described as having legendary precision...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I remember the Steel Legion Stormtroopers on Helsreach being amazed about Black Templars` performance.

That means they shouldn`t all shoot at the same level of skill.

But the problem is how to properly represent this on the table. It would take tons of experimentation to get to work and.... one last problem. Then you have Marines that are as good as bloodletters at CC and ranged. Which means they are as good as parts of the god of war himself. I4 represents being faster than humans. By that thinking WS4 and BS4 make perfect sense. Exceptional but not aiming of their leaders good. If we increase their bs skill, then we need to increase every other model that is better at them. We also need to make daemons invuln saves even better as they flicker in and out of reality and teleport about.

Rerollable termie armor? Seriously?

You can make things as powerful in game as you want. As long as the points increase accordingly. I don't think the OP is saying that GW should make the marines better, it is just something that would be fun to play with a couple of friends. Having WS5, BS5, rerollable 3+ armour wouldn't be overpowered if you increased the points accordingly. But it would be fun to see 5 marines take on 30 orks. And when you think about it that way, they are still going to kill the marines. 3+ re-rollable will still fail if it is going up against that many attacks.

I want my sponsones on my LRBT to each be able to target different targets.

Also, there should be loyalist boltguns and traitor boltguns. Loyalist boltguns are S: 4 AP: 3 R: 24" Rapid Fire while traitor boltguns are S: 3 AP: 6 R: 24" Salvo 2/3

 Peregrine wrote:
Just as long as we make basic guardsmen BS 4, and lasguns STR 10 AP 1 to represent the fact that my army isn't completely overpowered like I want it to be.

Or we could just accept that most of the fluff is in-universe propaganda written from an Imperial perspective, so the heroic deeds of the space marine heroes are exaggerated to suit their propaganda-hero status and their true effectiveness is what we see on the table.

Not that I like his suggestion (to begin with, it would be highly unrealistic for a fluff marine to have fewer wounds than an unenhanced human inquisitor, and a rerollable 2+ would be silly), but let's be honest here. If marines were just somewhat stronger and tougher humans with better stuff, The Emperor would not have bothered with them. It takes years of genetic engineering, psychosurgery, and training to create one space marine (never mind his equipment). We can argue that perhaps it isn't worthwhile or their capabilities are exaggerated, but even in-universe there is no way that they would go through so much trouble for a soldier that is only 3 times as effective as a guy with one month's training and a lasgun.

The real problem here is that if marines were actually given mechanical capabilities matching what they could do in the fluff, then their points cost would be so high that you wouldn't be able to field a reasonable amount of models on the battlefield (and forget about Devastators, Terminators, or special characters; those would have to be apocalypse-only).

Does anyone really want to play with or against a 1500 point army of nothing but 25 Tactical Marines?

I don't think that marines should be hitting any form of eldar on a 3, I think this would just end in marine being too good, either that or you would have to completely change up all models stats, which would mean that the D6 system would not work very well and a D20 system would work better, but by then you have changed a lot and spent a lot of time working on this and most of it for waste.

reaper with no name wrote:
We can argue that perhaps it isn't worthwhile or their capabilities are exaggerated, but even in-universe there is no way that they would go through so much trouble for a soldier that is only 3 times as effective as a guy with one month's training and a lasgun.

The sensible interpretation is that marines exist to be propaganda heroes, and objects of religious obsession. A purely pragmatic military would just spend the resources on conventional forces, but the Imperium is crippled by blind obedience to an insane religion. And so they spend vast resources on making their warrior-monks as their sacred texts command, just like they spend vast resources on making their ships into giant cathedrals or on recovering the burned-out wreckage of a 'sacred' tank.

And of course even your "real" marines still die just as fast against artillery/nuclear weapons/etc, so they're still impossible to justify.

matgc wrote:
What do you guys think?

I think it is a great idea....as long as you also bring the other armies closer to the fluff.

Like Orks being extremely tough and extremely numerous.
Like Eldar being very fast and able to predict the future.
Like Tyranids being so fast AND numerous that Marines habitually miss Genestealers even in a small corridor.

Do you begin to see the problem?

Don't drink the Kool-Aid, kid.
Fluff makes good stories, not good rules.

 Peregrine wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
We can argue that perhaps it isn't worthwhile or their capabilities are exaggerated, but even in-universe there is no way that they would go through so much trouble for a soldier that is only 3 times as effective as a guy with one month's training and a lasgun.

The sensible interpretation is that marines exist to be propaganda heroes, and objects of religious obsession. A purely pragmatic military would just spend the resources on conventional forces, but the Imperium is crippled by blind obedience to an insane religion. And so they spend vast resources on making their warrior-monks as their sacred texts command, just like they spend vast resources on making their ships into giant cathedrals or on recovering the burned-out wreckage of a 'sacred' tank.

And of course even your "real" marines still die just as fast against artillery/nuclear weapons/etc, so they're still impossible to justify.

And yet The Emperor went to the trouble, with a care for nothing but cold practicality. You can dance around it all you want, but clearly, they were powerful enough to justify the cost.

Or the emps was a crazy old man who wanted custom build sprogs to neglect.

I think +1 to WS and BS and/or re-rollable armor for marines and terminators is absurd. I could understand and would be fine with giving your vanilla marines preferred enemy across the board, but not much more than that. I think it would also be cool if you could specially kit your army with different sets of special rules to make your own chapter.

Nonetheless, you're crazy to think marines would ever get either of the things you just said. My tau pulse rifles will become ap3 way before anything you just said ever becomes true.

The problem is not really on the SM side (however they should have two wounds with all the doubled organs).

SM are more like SWAT and should not be on a normal battlefield to get artillery and mechanized fire in their face.
And there is too much handheld AP2-3 in the game, those should be much rare.

 Peregrine wrote:
Just as long as we make basic guardsmen BS 4, and lasguns STR 10 AP 1 to represent the fact that my army isn't completely overpowered like I want it to be.

Or we could just accept that most of the fluff is in-universe propaganda written from an Imperial perspective, so the heroic deeds of the space marine heroes are exaggerated to suit their propaganda-hero status and their true effectiveness is what we see on the table.

Unlikely considering that marines do not have the numbers to absorb those kinds of casualties. And the chaos novels have CSM s and loyalists just as powerful as imperial books do. Even the Elder books have space marines perform well above tabletop levels.

Rather he reverse is true, for the sake of ease of balance, most armies are toned down. Tyranids, Orks, and Guard can't drown the board (usually), Greater daemons and princes aren't "your planet is doooomed " level, guns have really funky ranges, everything moves at roughly the same speed, death strike missiles don't obliterate the map, Titans and other biggaton slingers don't obliterate the battlefield, orbital bombardment from multiteraton guns don't kill everyone on every table in the store, and aircraft go at silly speeds.

I think the larger issue with the game in general having any fluff style feeling is that it is designed around a D6 which makes it very difficult to differentiate between different units.

Lets put it this way the difference between BS 5 and Bs10 is smaller than that between BS 4 and BS 5. Essentially if you want to be able to have super elite stuff be better than elite stuff, on down the line, you would need to have things like Orks with BS 1, IG Tau Etc with BS 2, then Vets/Scounts at BS3 and Marines at BS4.

However,what would fix this more is basing the system around a D10. So you have your BS say a BS of 6 you hit on a 6 or less on a D10 (or 60% of the time.) IT would allow for greater differences between units, without needing to make all marines Hit 80+% of the time.

It is fine as it is. Increasing the point costs of C:SM units would mean that BA, SW, GK, BT, and DA units would all need increases. Since Space Marine armies already only field half of what Orks or Tyranids do, it's fine, especially considering that the changes are rather OP.

 Peregrine wrote:

matgc wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Just as long as we make basic guardsmen BS 4, and lasguns STR 10 AP 1 to represent the fact that my army isn't completely overpowered like I want it to be.

That`s a possibility. Completely off topic, though.

No, it's completely on-topic. Just like your idea it's nothing more than "I want my army to be more powerful", and completely inappropriate. Re-rollable terminator armor is in the same absurd category of STR 10 AP 1 lasguns, and nobody is ever going to want to play against it.

Except he admits that he should have to pay more. As a constant rule, I probably wouldn't like the idea of fluff marines, but for the occasional scenario, sure a few marines hacking through my swarm of guardsmen would be pretty fun. If I hated suffering high losses I wouldn't have chosen to play IG.

I think the problem is how to calculate the point cost properly. This upgrade is certainly mighty. Yet it brings forth a problem that an ap2/3 would then be far too good. Doesn't matter if your bs/ws increased. If you get hit your marine is likely a goner. So then you'd have to factor that into the cost or ask the enemy to limit plasma.

No. It's simply imbalanced against some armies.
Eliite armies with low AP, (IE mech Guard, I think Tau? MC nids, etc.) Won't feel a thing from this and trash you every time because you've got less models that are equally easy to kill. (What's the difference between an 80 pt BS10 WS10 marine with a 2+ rerollable save and a billion wounds and a 3 pt Grot, when you are being fired at by a Railgun? Absolutely nothing.)
However, horde and massed fire armies, (Orks, foot guard, etc.) Will find themselves vastly out-done because they're suddenly floundering in close combat and causing practically no damage.

Waaaghpower wrote:
No. It's simply imbalanced against some armies.
Eliite armies with low AP, (IE mech Guard, I think Tau? MC nids, etc.) Won't feel a thing from this and trash you every time because you've got less models that are equally easy to kill. (What's the difference between an 80 pt BS10 WS10 marine with a 2+ rerollable save and a billion wounds and a 3 pt Grot, when you are being fired at by a Railgun? Absolutely nothing.)
However, horde and massed fire armies, (Orks, foot guard, etc.) Will find themselves vastly out-done because they're suddenly floundering in close combat and causing practically no damage.

This is another good argument against the idea of making marines more like their fluff. The effects would simply be too polarizing.