How strict is WYSIWYG at tournaments?

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**22cthulu**

I understand that kitbashing is generally a no-no at tournaments, but how strict is this?

I know you can't switch out a sword for a spear or vice versa, but could you swap out the Hammersmiths hammers for Defender hammers?

**BoardroomHero**

That should be fine.

Generally speaking, the rule is 1) the 'majority' of the model must be the original model, and 2), it has to be obvious what it is (weapons switched out for the same 'kind' of weapon, etc.)

However, like any rule that has some interpretation involved, you're going to find some significant deviations from that standard. I've seen tournaments where DE were being used to substitute for Satytrix Raiders, and that was all well and good. I think that's pretty unusual, but it happens. I would strongly suggest asking around in the scenes you plan on playing, see where their limits are.

I've seen some pretty 'accommodating' rules being used even at large US events like Gencon and the like, but if you plan on playing in places like that, I'd suggest having a non-modified version on hand to switch out, or be prepared to borrow one. I've never seen it come up, but again, interpretable rules are dangerous.

**Crazy_Carnifex**

Safest bet is to not convert; while it probably won't make a difference, it does open up to complaints of "Oh, but because of the dinky little hammers he had I didn't think it could send my warpwolf flying".

Incidentally, why do you want to undersize the hammers on your 'jack?

**Maddermax**

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Safest bet is to not convert; while it probably won't make a difference, it does open up to complaints of "Oh, but because of the dinky little hammers he had I didn't think it could send my warpwolf flying".

Nah, I always say you shouldn't be afraid to convert as long as what you're making is recognizable as what it's meant to be. There are lots of people who do pretty extensive and cool conversions, and it would be a shame not to encourage that. Here are the guidelines for you, but remember that "any reasonable conversion" can be passed by the Tournament Organizer, and I doubt a Hammersmith chassis with two hammers is going to be mistaken for anything different.

Full conversion guidelines from the Steamroller tournament pack:

model conversions

Players must be unambiguous about model representation.
The following rules must be adhered to when using converted models in organized play. These rules are meant
not to limit a player’s modeling options but rather to allow creativity without generating an environment that could
become confusing during game play. At his discretion, an event organizer can make exceptions to these rules to
approve any reasonable conversion.

A converted model must contain a majority of parts from the WARMACHINE or HORDES model for which the rules were
written. For example, a Testament of Menoth conversion must be composed mostly of parts from the Testament of
Menoth model. The end result of any conversion must be clearly identifiable as the intended miniature and accurately
represent its weapons and equipment as listed in its rules. Any conversions must be clearly pointed out to your
opponent before the game to avoid confusion. On warrior models, converting and swapping weapons is
acceptable provided the new weapon represents the same type of weapon replaced (like swapping one sword for
another). Anything relating to a weapon’s specific rules must be maintained to avoid confusion on the tabletop.
For example, a weapon with Chain Weapon must still be modeled as a chain-style weapon, and a weapon’s length
must be considered when converting weapons with Reach. Weapons cannot be swapped on warjack and warbeast
models. Since many of the ’jacks and beasts utilize the same chassis or torso, the weapons are the most identifiable part
of the model when looking across the tabletop. Converting warjacks and warbeasts is still encouraged, but the aesthetics
of the weapons must be maintained. Modifying weapons is permitted, as long as the end result is easily identifiable as
the intended warjack or warbeast’s proper weapon.

Models/units with upgrade blisters are an exception to the standard model conversion rules in a number of
ways. Because the parts in these blisters define an entirely separate set of stats and abilities, the upgrade parts must be
clearly visible on the model/unit matching the upgrade stat card in order to be legal for tournament use. For example,
a helljack with one claw and one harpoon is not Malice. The model must have the correct head, harpoon blade,
and all three spirit parts from the Malice upgrade in order to be considered Malice. Additionally, once a model/unit
has been converted, it can only be fielded as that model unit. For example, a Warpwolf with the parts from the
Ghetorix upgrade is not an acceptable conversion for use with a Warpwolf Stalker stat card. Lastly, in the case of unit
attachment or weapon attachment upgrade, the model(s) that use the upgrade stat card must follow these rules to
be legal for tournament use, but the base unit follows the standard conversion policy for warrior model conversions,
above. For example, a Black Dragon Officer & Standard must always use the Black Dragon upgrade stat card and
an Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard must always use the Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard stat card, but an
Iron Fang Pikemen unit without a UA uses its standard stat card whether or not the models have Black Dragon shields
(or any other reasonable conversion).

Miniatures must be on their appropriately sized WARMACHINE/HORDES base, but scenic details can be added.
The base’s perimeter must always be considered when modeling scenic details. While it is acceptable for scenic elements
to overhang the base’s edge, the base itself and not the scenic elements is used for all measurements. The edge of a model’s
base must not obscured to the point that accurate measuring becomes difficult or impossible.

**Vineheart01**

Wait tournaments detest kitbashing? Thats bad news for me lol.

Im an Ork player at heart, i customize EVERYTHING i get my hands on. I recently got my hands on a fair bit of Trollbloods and i wanted to revamp the club on Mulg the Ancient to be an uprooted tree instead of a club (since its scraping the ground and pissing me off in the process) with runes all over it. Would that still be legal?

**Deadnight**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Wait tournaments detest kitbashing? Thats bad news for me lol.

Im an Ork player at heart, i customize EVERYTHING i get my hands on. I recently got my hands on a fair bit of Trollbloods and i wanted to revamp the club on Mulg the Ancient to be an uprooted tree instead of a club (since its scraping the ground and pissing me off in the process) with runes all over it. Would that still be legal?

is it easily identifiable as a club? which is a big stick, essentially. then you're fine.

ultimately ask the TO. he has final say. generally they're accomodating. i've got a squad of doom reavers converted with axes, and ive never had problems with opponents or TOs.

to be honest, most opponents will be more annoyed with you for fielding mulg, than for converting his club, mainly because mulg is such a nasty warbeast!

**Vineheart01**

Yea he is. I got my hands on about ~650USD worth of Trollbloods from a friend for 350, so i have a decent selection (only have a mauler and Mulg for dire troll selections though).

My first game was 15pt, i squeezed Mulg in there. My opponent wasnt happy rofl. He had Doomshaper (Rage of Dhunia, whichever number he is), Axer, and a SSC with him. Mulg just went crazy rofl. Love that dude.

**Maddermax**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Wait tournaments detest kitbashing? Thats bad news for me lol.

Im an Ork player at heart, i customize EVERYTHING i get my hands on. I recently got my hands on a fair bit of Trollbloods and i wanted to revamp the club on Mulg the Ancient to be an uprooted tree instead of a club (since its scraping the ground and pissing me off in the process) with runes all over it. Would that still be legal?

A tree? It'd be interesting to see. Here's a pic of a Mountain King that PP did up for a Diorama last year using a tree:

As for breaking out on mass conversions, as long as it's obvious as to what something is meant to be, you can often get away with it. Even if something is a little bit borderline at times, you can sometimes get away with it if it's really really cool. Take for instance these total army conversions - Cryx-nar and Stormhammer Brigade.

There are also things that might not be allowed in the big tourneys but might get by on the rule of cool in some local events. Take this scratch built "mammoth" that someone made up to proxy until the real mammoth was released.

You can't always rely on a major conversion getting allowed, if it's a bit confusing as to what it is, but that doesn't mean you can't convert, and convert pretty extensively at times.

**Vineheart01**

Yeah i have no intentions of making it like that pine in that king's fist lol. its literally just an idea to get his club to stop scraping the damn table, since i cant find where its glued to break it off and reset w/o having an obvious cut line.

**ICleadpeople**

Converting is not discouraged, its proxies that are a no-no. I would just talk to the EO in your store and see if he would let you use it in a tournament. As long as your opponent can look across the table and tell what your model is you should be fine.

**darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)**

Keep in mind that when playing death clock seconds matter. Prople dont want to spend time remembering what something should represent. Conversions are cool and welcome just make sure they reflect what your portraying and you will be fine.

**22cthulu**

The question now is how I'm going to go about putting helmets on all of my Cygnar, whilst staying true to the theme.

**malfred**

Show the model to a TO and ask him if they know what it is.

**darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)**

22cthulu wrote:
The question now is how I'm going to go about putting helmets on all of my Cygnar, whilst staying true to the theme.

Head swaps aren't a big deal, lots of folks do it for the Nyss Hunters using DE Witches heads.

**Grundz**

BoardroomHero wrote:
I've seen tournaments where DE were being used to substitute for Satytrix Raiders, and that was all well and good. I think that's pretty unusual, but it happens. I would strongly suggest asking around in the scenes you plan on playing, see where their limits are.

i'm actually considering picking up some DE incubi to not have to use swordsmen

I dont like shirtless mellee infantry

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Vineheart01 wrote:
... since i cant find where its glued to break it off and reset w/o having an obvious cut line.

http://store.privateerpress.com/mulgtheancientleftarm.aspx

The shoulder

**Grey Templar**

Mulg with a tree instead of his club should be fine. His club probably is made out of a tree trunk after all.

**CurrentlyUnknown**

In general, the rule for tourneys (particularly local) is the TO decides. And in general, the TOs are fairly forgiving as long as it's a recognizable conversion/swap.

**the_trooper**

A defender caries a shock hammer (does cortex damage).

A hammersmith caries two big hammers.

It would be odd to use those hammers.

**motyak**

the_trooper wrote:
A defender caries a shock hammer (does cortex damage).

A hammersmith caries two big hammers.

It would be odd to use those hammers.

I don't think the hammers would really throw me. There is one kind of jack in the entire Cygnar army with two hammers on the Centurion chassis. There is one kind with a hammer and a gigantic cannon on an Ironclad chassis. I don't really see how just because one of the hammers is different it could at all cause a problem, they are still either the only jack with 2 hammers or the only jack with 1 hammer and one gigantic cannon.

**-Nazdreg-**

I would suggest just taking a photo and showing it to the TO and ask if that is fine. If someone has a problem, refer to that.

**Alex Kolodotschko**

I use both of these models as Mariners for my pirate mecenaries.
I think that if the armament cannot be misconstrued as anything else from the army list then generally things are fine.
I've had no problems as yet, being able to cite the 'Rule of Cool' is always a good defence.
In terms of the majority of the model being Privateer Press i'd say that 51% of the weight of the model is the metal PP cannon and base and the 49% is the resin giant, prove me wrong without tearing my model apart.

I'm sure that in Hardcore tournament conditions I might have a problem but i've no interest in entering those anyway!

**Alex Kolodotschko**

Aaaaand whilst i'm at it here's a cheeky weapon/net swap on my Buccaneer.
I've also got a smattering of ramdom pirates mixed within my Sea Dogs.

**Blaque**

I'll be honest, that thing that you use to fill in for a Mariner would probably not pass in a lot of events, as it well....isn't one. I think that's another thing on the doc. It comes down to the TO, but in that case, a giant pirate zombie thing doesn't in any way come accross as "Mariner warjack" sbustittue to me. I would argue that the "TO discretion" is there for both allowing some things that do work (like some Behemoths made from Extreme Juggernaughts I've seen aobut) as well as just going, "C'mon man" as i feel that one is trying to be.

The Buccaneer looks great there though.

And stuff.

**Alex Kolodotschko**

The feather from his tricorn has snapped off and I'd like to put a cigarette in his mouth so he can light the cannon.
Would that help?

**Leo_the_Rat**

I'd side with Blaque in this instance. While it may be a "cool" model it isn't a "cool" mariner to me. The biggest thing that bothers me is that it doesn't look like a jack. It looks like a beast of some sort (almost more legion or skorne).

**Grey Templar**

Yeah, it might be an acceptable Titan Cannoneer. Its easier if the rules say its living while the model also says its living.

**hotsauceman1**

This is something my friend said I cant do.
I want to take the destroyer from the battlebox, put the black ivan head and shoulders on it. but magnetize the claw and the axe onto it so i can swap them out. He said I cant do that because people would get confused.
Also, lets say I take my juggernaut and make its ice axe two-headed, from those rules it sounds like I can.

**Blaque**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
This is something my friend said I cant do.
I want to take the destroyer from the battlebox, put the black ivan head and shoulders on it. but magnetize the claw and the axe onto it so i can swap them out. He said I cant do that because people would get confused.

I honestly think folks normally can't tell the difference of the head of most models at a distance unless it is signfiicantly different, like Convergence Ciphers v. Anything Else. This would be legal as you have most of the Destroyer in the Destroyer version and it's all of Ivan in the Ivan version. The main worry I would have is that that claw is all metal, so attaching it via a magnet seems difficult to me.

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Also, lets say I take my juggernaut and make its ice axe two-headed, from those rules it sounds like I can.

That's perfectly legal. It's just an axe for an axe and there's no difference anywhere of one-headed v. two-headed ones.

And stuff.

**Grey Templar**

99% of people won't be able to tell the difference between heads. Its weapons that people usually use for identification.

So aside from the obvious issue of the claw being a little heavy for magnets the weapon swap would be perfectly fine.