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An interesting question struck me. If an Ever-Living Necron falls back off the board, can he still come back?
Common sense indicates that they shouldn't (after all, if they are dead and the unit they were with falls back off the board, they can't come back), but try as I might, I can't find anything in the codex or FAQ indicating the same to be true here.
Am I missing something, or can Necrons with the Ever-Living rule who fall off the board still come back?
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
No, a model that has been removed from the board is gone forever, they fled the battle to fight another day. This is a case where EL does not work. Think of it as leathal terrain(its described in the rulebook somewhere) and that its a lake of lava, no matter how much a Necron wants to put itself back together, if its melted, its gone!
D ====> IMMA CHARGIN MAH TESLA!!
D ====> ====> ====> IMMA FIRE MAH TESLA!!
(from 2nd and 3rd edition, current value unknown)
- 1500-ish (more models that arent useable)
- 2650
WHFB Dark Elves - 1400ish
The way that things are worded (as far as I can see), is that when a model falls back off the board (or more precisely, when a model in the unit touches the edge of the board), they are removed as a casualty. When a Necron with the Ever-Living rule is removed as a casualty, they are entitled to an RP roll unless some other rule says otherwise.
In other words, to back up the claim that they can't come back after falling back off the board, I need a page number or FAQ citation. If one doesn't exist, then the only possible conclusion would be that they can in fact return from falling off the board.
Hence the purpose of this thread. I have failed to find such evidence, and was hoping someone else could.
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
As the FAQ specifies that a Necron unit that falls back with Everliving tokens on it loses them all (despite there being no RAW reason why I can tell), it only stands to reason that the same principle applies to any existing Everliving models in the unit as well.
If that FAQ didn't exist I'd likely agree that all models with RP or Everliving would get to place a token when falling back off the table.
Another interesting point about EL that most people don't know about or simply ignore is that the updated iOS codex changed the EL rules to state that except for the differences specified in the EL rules, EL counters are treated exactly like RP counters, which by the RAW means they should also be removed if they are on a unit that Falls Back, but nobody plays that way that I've seen.
As the FAQ specifies that a Necron unit that falls back with Everliving tokens on it loses them all (despite there being no RAW reason why I can tell), it only stands to reason that the same principle applies to any existing Everliving models in the unit as well.
If reason applied here, then Necrons who fell back with Ever-Living tokens wouldn't lose them in the first place. That particular argument defeats itself.
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
If reason applied here, then Necrons who fell back with Ever-Living tokens wouldn't lose them in the first place. That particular argument defeats itself.
Perhaps, but it makes even less sense that existing EL tokens would be lost when the unit falls back off the table but somehow those models still standing in the unit would get to place tokens...I mean, in either case you're talking about a unit that has fallen back off the table that has EL tokens placed, which the FAQ says are not rolled for.
Or another argument can be made is that when a unit falls back off the table, the entire UNIT is removed as casualties per the rulebook, not the individual models within the unit.
The unit is removed as casualties. But the rule, as given in the codex, is that Ever-Living tokens get placed (obviously, RP ones wouldn't, because the whole unit has been destroyed, but that's not the issue here). Unless something else says they don't, the default assumption is that the EL tokens do get placed. Even if it conflicts with common sense (which the rules often do anyway).
We can't say that they don't get placed unless something in the rules somewhere says that they don't.
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
So what basis is there for EL tokens to be removed when a unit falls back off the table, given that the ruling is a FAQ and not an errata or amendment?
The basis is that the codex specifically says EL tokens get placed when a model is removed as a casualty. Therefore, in order for EL tokens to not get placed, something else must specifically say that they do not.
The FAQ states that if a unit with EL tokens runs off the board, the EL tokens go away. Hence, we have an exception. The FAQ also says that replacement effects (such as Zogwort's Curse or a Mutating Warpblade) also prevent EL tokens from being placed. Hence, another exception.
It does not say that when an EL model runs off the board it does not get to put down an EL token. Therefore, in the absence of a rule stating otherwise, we would have to conclude EL tokens do get placed in this situation.
The fact that such a conclusion is strange is what leads me to believe that there may be an exception rule somewhere that I have missed. But since no one has come forward with one, I'm beginning to doubt it. It wouldn't be the first weird rule, I suppose.
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
I think the only way to actually have this discussion is to post in its entirety the updated rules for Reanimation Protocols and Everliving in the iOS codex. Then I'll point out where I think the rules prevent the situation from happening that you describe (the text in red is what has been added or changed to the iOS version since the print codex was released):
iOS Necron Codex wrote:
Reanimation Protocols
Necrons have sophisticated self-repair systems that return even critically damaged warriors to the fight.
If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase. Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters (or other suitable markers) next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a Fall back move, remove any counters from it.
At the end of the phase, after any morale checks have been taken and Fall Back moves have been made, roll a D6 for each Reanimation Protocols counter next to the unit. On a 1, 2, 3 or 4, the damage is too severe and no self-repair is occurs - nothing happens. On a 5 or 6, a Necron reassembles itself and continues to fight - return one of the slain models to play with a single Wound placed in coherency with a model from its unit that has not itself returned through Reanimation Protocols this phase. Models returning to play in this fashion must be placed at least 1" from enemy models. If the model's unit is engaged in close combat, the model immediately makes a Pile In move. Models that cannot be placed in this way do not return.
Reanimation Protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed or fallen back off the table -- once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters. Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of Reanimation Protocols - if a character is the only survivor of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a Reanimation Protocols roll, so remove any remaining counters. Once all Reanimation Protocols rolls have been made for a unit (passed or failed) remove all your counters from the unit.
Note that if a Necron model is replaced by another model (ie, turned into a Chaos Spawn), place no Reanimation Protocols counter for it.
iOS Necron Codex wrote:
Ever-Living
If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter.
If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with the unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols. If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty (or if the unit it had joined was entirely wiped out), the model must be returned to play, with a single Wound, within 3" of the counter. In either case, the model must be placed at least 1" away from enemy models. If the model is placed in coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice). If the model was locked in close combat when it "died", and the combat is ongoing, then it must immediately make a Pile In move. If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return. If the roll was failed, removed the counter from play.
Except for the differences detailed above, an Ever-living counter is treated in all ways like a Reanimation Protocols counter; it benefits from the effects of a Resurrection Orb, for example.
Note that if a Necron is replaced with another model (ie, turned into a Chaos Spawn), place no Ever-living counter for it.
So the key here with the updated rules is that EL counters no behave exactly like a RP counter except where specifically noted otherwise. Since the rules now clearly state that RP cannot be rolled for by a unit that has fallen back off the table, the same thing would apply to EL tokens on the unit as well, even those that wound theoretically be placed due to the unit falling back off the table and getting removed as casualties...it is still a unit that has fallen back off the table which means that RP rolls cannot be attempted which also means that EL rolls for the unit can also not be taken (as they follow the same rules as RP counters except where specified otherwise).
Now the only question is, does the iOS codex override the print codex, since the two (in this situation) technically have different rules?
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
Now the only question is, does the iOS codex override the print codex, since the two (in this situation) technically have different rules?
Well, GW's site trumpets the iOS books as being kept up to date with the latest errata and FAQs.
Given that the print Necron codex is a 5th edition codex released in 2011 and the iOS one has been updated three times since being released in 2012, its not so much about whether the iOS codex 'takes precedence' but rather that it is the most current version.
The FAQ document is supposed to keep the print and the iOS version roughly similar, but obviously it is a whole lot more clear in the iOS version covering this particular topic (although it is pretty clear that both are roughly trying to say the same thing).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/25 09:31:58
The difference is that EL counters are not placed on the unit, and the rule says when falling back to remove counters from the unit.
edit: Furthermore the question in the faq "Q: If a unit with one or more reanimation protocols or ever-living counters fails its Morale check and falls back off the table, what happens to the counters and the models they represent? (p29)" has meaning only if EL counters remain after falling back, otherwise the "falls back off the table" is redundant.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/25 09:35:22
For reference to what I said above, the quote from GW's website about one of the reasons to purchase an iOS codex:
• Always up-to-date with the latest rules.
copper.talos wrote: The difference is that EL counters are not placed on the unit, and the rule says when falling back to remove counters from the unit.
So are you trying to say that the FAQ ruling is incorrect/meaningless when it specifically mentions that EL rolls cannot be taken in that situation?
Edit: Or in other words, I am really confused about what 'side' you are even arguing for! You may want to add a bit more clarification to what you're saying as I can honestly say that I'm confused as to the point of your reply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/25 09:43:53
The ammount of people who do not read or adjust there codex, with the latest FAQ's is terrifying. Even had someone Tell me a deathray is not a template weapon so can shoot at fliers.........
The FAQ's are released to Update your Codex's, I own most codex's And I always Print off and stick the Valid updates over the old version's. Even if it is just a Replace this sentence with This sentence update.
And in my Honest opinion Anyone with an IOS Codex and an internet conection, overrides a Outdated Paper codex. because the ios version is Always up to date.
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
Another interesting point about EL that most people don't know about or simply ignore is that the updated iOS codex changed the EL rules to state that except for the differences specified in the EL rules, EL counters are treated exactly like RP counters, which by the RAW means they should also be removed if they are on a unit that Falls Back, but nobody plays that way that I've seen.
To clarify my previous post I replied (at least I tried ) to this part of your post. The RP rule says when falling back to remove the counters from the unit. RP counters are placed on the unit, EL counters are not. They are placed on the table. This is a difference between RP & EL counters. So when falling back you only remove the RP counters.
So to summarise, the faq just adds a specific situation when EL counters get removed, that is when the unit falls back off the table. Nothing more, nothing less. It has no RAW basis so it should have been an errata in my opinion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/25 10:27:26
To clarify my previous post I replied (at least I tried ) to this part of your post. The RP rule says when falling back to remove the counters from the unit. RP counters are placed on the unit, EL counters are not. They are placed on the table. This is a difference between RP & EL counters. So when falling back you only remove the RP counters.
So to summarise, the faq just adds a specific situation when EL counters get removed, that is when the unit falls back off the table. Nothing more, nothing less. It has no RAW basis so it should have been an errata in my opinion.
While I understand what you're saying, it is pretty clear that EL tokens are associated with a unit...even while down an EL model's Rez Orb still applies to HIS unit, a non-ICEL model that get backs up still represents the last model of his unit for Victory Points and an EL model that gets back up has to be placed back into coherency with the unit he was part of.
So yes, fundamentally you are correct, but I think it is pretty clear from the FAQ and the iOS changes that the GOAL of all this is that when a unit containing EL models falls back off the table, those models are lost and do not roll for EL.
If he falls off the edge of the board, he's likely to be in several little pieces so effectively out of the game, because I'm not going to spend 15-20min waiting for my opponent to glue him back together again.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: If he falls off the edge of the board, he's likely to be in several little pieces so effectively out of the game, because I'm not going to spend 15-20min waiting for my opponent to glue him back together again.
Okay so with this new RP and EL information how would you guys handle these 2 situations?
1) cryptec and 10 warriors are in a squad, the cryptec gets killed then before the EL the squad fails moral and hits the table edge...do you get EL for the cryptec?
2) same squad but this time some warriors get killed, they fail moral check and hits table edge? This case you wouldn't get EL correct?
A Cryptek is an IND Char. And as such if he dies before the rest of his squad runs then I would say that yes he does get his EL roll. As at the time of the Cryptek's death he is no longer in the squad. And as such the warriors take there leadership on there own Leadership, not his And flee. An because he is an IND CHAR, he does not need a squad around him in order to use EL. as it works differently from RP.
If however he is still alive when the squad flees and runs off the table edge Then No he does not get EL roll. because if they failed the Leadership they failed on his leadership, meaning the Cryptek and the warriors all fail and have to run.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/25 13:49:56
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
rigeld2 wrote: A Cryptek is not an independent character.
That makes it even Simpler then. Using the Units rules. even if he dies before the unit runs. then he wont get his EL. as he is then part of that unit. I Apologise for thinking he was a IND CHar. The rule book states IN,CHR. I assumed after a quick look IN was Independent.
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
cerbrus2 wrote: The ammount of people who do not read or adjust there codex, with the latest FAQ's is terrifying. Even had someone Tell me a deathray is not a template weapon so can shoot at fliers.........
The FAQ's are released to Update your Codex's, I own most codex's And I always Print off and stick the Valid updates over the old version's. Even if it is just a Replace this sentence with This sentence update.
And in my Honest opinion Anyone with an IOS Codex and an internet conection, overrides a Outdated Paper codex. because the ios version is Always up to date.
Not in my neck of the woods, there's a bunch of luddites around here who don't trust the digital versions. The digital versions can be tampered with, and some have done so. So any changes on the IOS better be reflected in the current faq's. Although the last time a question like this came up the IOS got updated, then a few days latter the FAQ's got the update.
So while the IOS is really convenient and seemingly the first updated, not everyone buys into that logic.
cerbrus2 wrote: The ammount of people who do not read or adjust there codex, with the latest FAQ's is terrifying. Even had someone Tell me a deathray is not a template weapon so can shoot at fliers.........
The FAQ's are released to Update your Codex's, I own most codex's And I always Print off and stick the Valid updates over the old version's. Even if it is just a Replace this sentence with This sentence update.
And in my Honest opinion Anyone with an IOS Codex and an internet conection, overrides a Outdated Paper codex. because the ios version is Always up to date.
Not in my neck of the woods, there's a bunch of luddites around here who don't trust the digital versions. The digital versions can be tampered with, and some have done so. So any changes on the IOS better be reflected in the current faq's. Although the last time a question like this came up the IOS got updated, then a few days latter the FAQ's got the update.
So while the IOS is really convenient and seemingly the first updated, not everyone buys into that logic.
Its a good job we libe in a digital age with internet where ever we go then. at least you can cross reference the rules to the FAQ's on the gw website. So long as they have updated i suppose.
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
sirlynchmob wrote: The digital versions can be tampered with, and some have done so.
No, they haven't.
The digital codexes aren't just PDFs that open in iBooks.
If they've tampered with them those people will have extremely successful careers in the IT industry.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Not in my neck of the woods, there's a bunch of luddites around here who don't trust the digital versions. The digital versions can be tampered with, and some have done so. So any changes on the IOS better be reflected in the current faq's. Although the last time a question like this came up the IOS got updated, then a few days latter the FAQ's got the update.
So while the IOS is really convenient and seemingly the first updated, not everyone buys into that logic.
So even though I'm now exclusively buying my codexes on iOS, I wouldn't be able to play in your gaming store with them despite the fact that the company that sells them recommends the digital versions over their own print versions because they always contain the most up to date rules?
How does that make any kind of sense?
Do you guys also not trust any of the online FAQs because those can be tampered with? Because its damn near impossible to mess with the iOS ebooks, but its pretty darn easy to crank out a fake FAQ PDF.
D ====> IMMA CHARGIN MAH TESLA!!
(from 2nd and 3rd edition, current value unknown)
- 1500-ish (more models that arent useable)
WHFB Dark Elves - 1400ish 
) to this part of your post. The 
Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing
