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I know that the Chaos codex isn't all that new anymore, but having finally gotten around to reading it, it's new to me. I haven't exactly had my finger on the pulse of CSM players in the tactics forum, so I'll have to apologize if the answers to some of these are painfully obvious, and I've just missed them.

- None of the CSM players I've seen around the FLGS scene have ever played a maulerfiend. Why is that? With beast, MTC, and fleet, it seems pretty certain to arrange a turn 2 charge (or turn 1, if your opponent moves stuff towards you), a charge that gets 4 S10 Ap2 hits with a pretty decent chance of a free meltagun hit on the charge, with the chance of two. And the damage can be made even worse with the demonforge. Given that it's an Av12 vehicle with a 5++, combined with its speed, makes it seem rather likely to get where it's going.

At first glance, it looks pretty beaty. What am I missing?

- Are people still fawning over themselves about obliterators? I know they got cheaper, but so did their competitors. For the price of a pair of them, I could now get a 4-lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator, both of which look like they'd do more damage sooner. Also, they can no longer scatterless deepstrike, right?

- Both raptors and bikes feel like they've gotten cheaper. Also, it looks like rather the whole point of them is to take advantage of the lower-model-count special weapons slots. Is there much of a point to larger squads now, or are they mostly cheap, disposable meltagun suicide units?

- Is there much point to cult troops anymore? I recall that it was already slightly iffy to take berzerkers over marked CSM, for example, but it seems even iffier now. Why pay 19 points for a berzerker when I could spend 15 on a marked CSM with nearly the same abilities? Likewise, FNP is neat, but the price hike from nurgle CSM to plague marines seems horrendously steep.

- That said, is it even worth it to bother marking? I liked the idea of splashing a diety on troops in large squads, but now that you have to pay per-model, it doesn't seem quite so worth it anymore. I guess it's cheaper for small squads than they used to be, but it seems like the point of having a codex filled with a cheaper, crappier unit of a certain other codex's stuff would be so that you could spam them harder.

I like me my upgrades that dish out more damage, don't get me wrong, but it seems like points spent on marks would be constantly conflicting with adding more meltaguns or adding in another whole unit.

- Chaos terminators were one of my favorite units from the old codex, and I practically cried when I saw the new ones. 182 points for FIVE combi-weapons on terminator mounts? My first reaction was "why don't all CSM lists start with their first 1100 points with 30 terminators?"

I mean, seriously, a squad of 10 costs just about as much as 10 combi-weapon sternguard in a drop pod. But they're TERMINATORS. Seriously, what am I missing here?

The thing that's really striking to me is to compare them to things like warp talons or chosen or posessed. Drop a couple of points per model more, and you get the whole world of extra goodness.

- I could take or leave the old CSM special characters. While the new lord is SO cheap that it feels like a shame not to include one, it looks like you're really getting what you pay for in special rules nowadays. In particular Huron's free outflanking everything and lucious' genuinely neat abilities seem like I'd be much more likely to want to actually take one. Or is the fact that the new lords are so cheap still what makes them the thing to take?

- A chaos player at my FLGS said that it's pretty much mandatory to take veterans of the long war, but I don't see why this is. It seems like for small squads, you wouldn't really miss the -1 Ld (tending to get destroyed, rather than run off), and with larger squads, you'd be spending so many points, that you might as well just take a dark apostle at a relative discount. Am I missing something with this?

- I know warpsmiths are rather disapproved of, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why. They cost the same as a lord with terminator armor, but come with a lot of neat kit, including extra attacks, free guns, and general support abilities like screwing with terrain and buffing vehicles. That you can take artifacts makes me think that they can stay on par with the lord even when you're willing to throw around more points on HQ choices.

Anyways, thanks in advance for some answers. In general, I liked the new codex, even though it does seem a bit blander than the old (not only in fluff, but also in removing some of the best crazy things like gifts of chaos). The pictures were beautiful, though. I'm not keen on the new DV stuff, but I hadn't taken a close enough look at some of the other new things they came out with as model releases as well.

I'll field the limited number of those I know.

Plague marines are substantially more survivable than CSM and get 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad. If you are going mark of nurgle and a character to make them troops they are just better in nearly every way.

I believe the problem with the mauler fiend is the meta rather than the unit. AV12 in any environment spamming S7+ weapons on every unit is just going to die if you are not spamming it just as hard. This is kinda tough to do in an effective way with the CSM codex.

The sorcerer is pretty good but the new special characters are some of the best HQs in the game. Huron is incredible for his infiltrating shenanigans and Typhus is the only HQ I every run from CSM (he unlocks plague zombies and plague marines as troops). DP are also crazy effective but also crazy expensive so they can really dish out the pain if used right. Abadon is the best CC independent character in the game and has a whole thread devoted to him stealing your lunch money.

I think the reaction to the book will change alot depending on what happens with the other books but there are some pretty cool units in it.

 Ailaros wrote:
I know that the Chaos codex isn't all that new anymore, but having finally gotten around to reading it, it's new to me. I haven't exactly had my finger on the pulse of CSM players in the tactics forum, so I'll have to apologize if the answers to some of these are painfully obvious, and I've just missed them.

- None of the CSM players I've seen around the FLGS scene have ever played a maulerfiend. Why is that? With beast, MTC, and fleet, it seems pretty certain to arrange a turn 2 charge (or turn 1, if your opponent moves stuff towards you), a charge that gets 4 S10 Ap2 hits with a pretty decent chance of a free meltagun hit on the charge, with the chance of two. And the damage can be made even worse with the demonforge. Given that it's an Av12 vehicle with a 5++, combined with its speed, makes it seem rather likely to get where it's going.

At first glance, it looks pretty beaty. What am I missing?

Maulerfiends would be a giant shoot me-sign. I do think they're better than conventional internet wisdom says, but the fact remains that it's a giant AV12 walker.

 Ailaros wrote:

- Are people still fawning over themselves about obliterators? I know they got cheaper, but so did their competitors. For the price of a pair of them, I could now get a 4-lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator, both of which look like they'd do more damage sooner. Also, they can no longer scatterless deepstrike, right?

Obliterators can take Mark of Nurgle now, meaning they're safe from ID from lascannons. I agree with you though, I've never liked 'blits and I still don't.

 Ailaros wrote:

- Both raptors and bikes feel like they've gotten cheaper. Also, it looks like rather the whole point of them is to take advantage of the lower-model-count special weapons slots. Is there much of a point to larger squads now, or are they mostly cheap, disposable meltagun suicide units?

Both Bikers and Raptors with Mark of Khorne and the Icon of Wrath (I think it's Wrath, might be misremembering) give you very mobile units packing a surprising amount of attacks on the charge. Other than that, pretty much either suicide melta or, in the case of bikes, bodyguards for a Lord.

 Ailaros wrote:

- Is there much point to cult troops anymore? I recall that it was already slightly iffy to take berzerkers over marked CSM, for example, but it seems even iffier now. Why pay 19 points for a berzerker when I could spend 15 on a marked CSM with nearly the same abilities? Likewise, FNP is neat, but the price hike from nurgle CSM to plague marines seems horrendously steep.

Berzerkers are almost certainly not worth it anymore. Plague Marines, on the other hand, get FNP, Defensive Grenades and T5, something you can't emulate in ordinary CSM squads. In the same vein, Noise Marines get access to Blastmasters. Thousand Sons have stuff that you can't emulate, but they're just not good. They're freakishly expensive, their Sorcerer has to roll on the Tzeentch table (which is rubbish) and they still die as easily as a marine to bolter or flashlight fire.

 Ailaros wrote:

- That said, is it even worth it to bother marking? I liked the idea of splashing a diety on troops in large squads, but now that you have to pay per-model, it doesn't seem quite so worth it anymore. I guess it's cheaper for small squads than they used to be, but it seems like the point of having a codex filled with a cheaper, crappier unit of a certain other codex's stuff would be so that you could spam them harder.

I like me my upgrades that dish out more damage, don't get me wrong, but it seems like points spent on marks would be constantly conflicting with adding more meltaguns or adding in another whole unit.

Think of it this way: You either have your units be better at what they do, or you have one extra unit. If you'd rather have the extra unit, go ahead and don't mark anything, but I'd go for the marks.

 Ailaros wrote:

- Chaos terminators were one of my favorite units from the old codex, and I practically cried when I saw the new ones. 182 points for FIVE combi-weapons on terminator mounts? My first reaction was "why don't all CSM lists start with their first 1100 points with 30 terminators?"

I've actually got to agree with you completely here. Termicide is still an option and with the changes to Power Weapons 2+ saves are better.

 Ailaros wrote:

I mean, seriously, a squad of 10 costs just about as much as 10 combi-weapon sternguard in a drop pod. But they're TERMINATORS. Seriously, what am I missing here?

The thing that's really striking to me is to compare them to things like warp talons or chosen or posessed. Drop a couple of points per model more, and you get the whole world of extra goodness.

The thing is, Chosen don't have combi-weapons. They get to use theirs more than once. That said, I haven't ever seen anyone play with either Chosen or Possessed, and the only reason I've seen anyone play with Warp Talons is because our local Chaos player has been tinkering around with them to see if he can make them useful in some fashion.

 Ailaros wrote:

- I could take or leave the old CSM special characters. While the new lord is SO cheap that it feels like a shame not to include one, it looks like you're really getting what you pay for in special rules nowadays. In particular Huron's free outflanking everything and lucious' genuinely neat abilities seem like I'd be much more likely to want to actually take one. Or is the fact that the new lords are so cheap still what makes them the thing to take?

Almost all the Chaos Special Characters are playable without any big handicap (I personally wouldn't run Lucius, but everyone else seems decent enough to me). Khorne Lords are amazing, since they can get Juggernauts and the Axe of Blind Fury. Putting him in a unit of Spawns for meatshields his speed allows him to cross the board really fast, and the axe is at-initiative AP2. Nurgle Lords on a bike gets T6 and thus immunity to ID from double strength attacks. I haven't seen any Slaanesh Lords since our local Chaos player is a Khorne player, so I'm not really sure what to do with him.

 Ailaros wrote:

- A chaos player at my FLGS said that it's pretty much mandatory to take veterans of the long war, but I don't see why this is. It seems like for small squads, you wouldn't really miss the -1 Ld (tending to get destroyed, rather than run off), and with larger squads, you'd be spending so many points, that you might as well just take a dark apostle at a relative discount. Am I missing something with this?

You are indeed missing something: Preferred Enemy: Space Marines. Furthermore, it just isn't expensive enough to break your bank. Dark Apostles are utter rubbish, in my opinion, and should therefore be avoided at all costs. They just don't add anything that you can't do better somewhere else.

 Ailaros wrote:

- I know warpsmiths are rather disapproved of, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why. They cost the same as a lord with terminator armor, but come with a lot of neat kit, including extra attacks, free guns, and general support abilities like screwing with terrain and buffing vehicles. That you can take artifacts makes me think that they can stay on par with the lord even when you're willing to throw around more points on HQ choices.

Our local Chaos player plays with his Warpsmith every now and then. He's actually not that bad. His weaknesses are that he's only WS4 and 2W, but he gets a metric crap-ton of attacks and gets a BS5 Meltagun.

I field both Noisemarines and Plague Marines in different lists I run.

One important bonus that fielding the cult troops gives you is that they are fearless down to the last man. This means that it becomes perfectly possible to spam 5 man squads of Noisemarines with a just a blastmaster and have them sitting on objectives firing thier awesome s8 ap3 ignores cover blast template until your opponent completely wipes them out.

Similarly a 5 man plague marine squad with 2 special weapons and a combi-weapon on the champion in a rhino gets you very points efficient and surprisingly survivable killy unit.

I find nothing more annoying than having 7csm run away or get swept while the loyalists are immune.

On the subject of terminators I often run one or 2 termicide squads but I've yet to find an efficient use for larger squads. Mainly because I just can't get them to where they'd be useful quickly enough.

Maybe outflanking with a Slaanesh Lord on a steed, or using Huron to infiltrate will solve that problem. I expect there is an efficient way to use them, I just haven't found it yet.

Also on the point about obliterators, I often run 2 oblits with MoN alongside one havoc squad with Lascannons and one with Autocannons. What the oblits provide is flexibility and survivability, and often are more key to my games than either Havoc squad.

I haven't tried out a predator yet, but I'd imagine they would work very well in multiples while a lone one would just be a massive target.

That was a bit of a ramble, but I'd be happy to discuss anything else in more depth.

The current dex is indeed all about spamming a select few units, in this case being the ever ubiquitous hell drake to make marines cry, plague marines and zombies to camp that objective until doomsday rolls around, dirt cheap terminators to appear out of nowhere and shove combi meltas and flamers up somewhere unpleasant, and havocs, MoN oblits, or predators for more dakka. HQ s are usually Typhus and some cheap khorne lord on a juggernaut with the axe of killydeath.

Rhinos are optional.

 Ailaros wrote:
I know that the Chaos codex isn't all that new anymore, but having finally gotten around to reading it, it's new to me. I haven't exactly had my finger on the pulse of CSM players in the tactics forum, so I'll have to apologize if the answers to some of these are painfully obvious, and I've just missed them.

- None of the CSM players I've seen around the FLGS scene have ever played a maulerfiend. Why is that? With beast, MTC, and fleet, it seems pretty certain to arrange a turn 2 charge (or turn 1, if your opponent moves stuff towards you), a charge that gets 4 S10 Ap2 hits with a pretty decent chance of a free meltagun hit on the charge, with the chance of two. And the damage can be made even worse with the demonforge. Given that it's an Av12 vehicle with a 5++, combined with its speed, makes it seem rather likely to get where it's going.

At first glance, it looks pretty beaty. What am I missing?

Maulerfiends are really nice indeed. The main problem with them is that they really need a whole composition built around them to be effective. Just one maulerfiend moving forwards will do absolutely nothing. You need at least 2, alongside a bunch of other threats running up with them. In addition, their being in the Heavy Support Slot means that they compete with Obliterators etc, so lots of people will take Obliterators instead.

- Are people still fawning over themselves about obliterators? I know they got cheaper, but so did their competitors. For the price of a pair of them, I could now get a 4-lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator, both of which look like they'd do more damage sooner. Also, they can no longer scatterless deepstrike, right?

You don't take Obliterators for the lascannons, or any one special weapon. Their inability to shoot the same weapon twice in a row is another sign of that, beyond their expensiveness. You take Obliterators because they have all the weapons, and you use them in a way such that, while you shoot lascannons first turn, you probably shoot plasma cannons next turn, then assault cannons, then multimeltas, then TL Melta or TL Plasma. Then you've gotten mega money's worth. Also you need to Mark of Nurgle them for T5 and they're extremely survivable. Also Vets so they don't run as much.

- Both raptors and bikes feel like they've gotten cheaper. Also, it looks like rather the whole point of them is to take advantage of the lower-model-count special weapons slots. Is there much of a point to larger squads now, or are they mostly cheap, disposable meltagun suicide units?

One of the big things is Nurgle Bikers, to get that nasty T6. You don't even need the specials, just the fast melee tarpit with a Nurgle Biker Lord. Large blobs of Slaanesh Bikers with the FnP Icon are also really fast and survivable. Meltagun suicide units work, but I've not seen many of those at all. It also doesn't help that they compete with the heldrake.

- Is there much point to cult troops anymore? I recall that it was already slightly iffy to take berzerkers over marked CSM, for example, but it seems even iffier now. Why pay 19 points for a berzerker when I could spend 15 on a marked CSM with nearly the same abilities? Likewise, FNP is neat, but the price hike from nurgle CSM to plague marines seems horrendously steep.

Berserkers -- Use if you like the fluff, or if you already have a Juggernaut Lord and feel like spending some extra points on Fearless, FC, and +1WS, while losing special weapons. Faux-zerkers are generally more versatile (MoK + BP/CCW) are usually the better choice for increased versatility with melta or plasma, while still getting a bunch of attacks.

Plague Marines -- FnP standard + T5 means they're twice as survivable to bolters as regular marines. Furthermore, they get 2 specials at 5 man, plus Bolter/BP/CCW, and the CCW is poisoned, and defensive grenades. Typically you take 5 men with 2 plasmaguns, and camp them somewhere. Good firepower and survivability for not that expensive.

Noise Marines -- They get Doom Sirens and Blastmasters, which Slaanesh Marines can't get at all.

Thousand Sons -- lol you're not going to take Thousand Sons. However they do offer stuff entirely different than Tzeentch Marines. You'll really never take Tzeentch Marines.

- That said, is it even worth it to bother marking? I liked the idea of splashing a diety on troops in large squads, but now that you have to pay per-model, it doesn't seem quite so worth it anymore. I guess it's cheaper for small squads than they used to be, but it seems like the point of having a codex filled with a cheaper, crappier unit of a certain other codex's stuff would be so that you could spam them harder.

I like me my upgrades that dish out more damage, don't get me wrong, but it seems like points spent on marks would be constantly conflicting with adding more meltaguns or adding in another whole unit.

Mark of Khorne is nice to get a bunch more attacks when you're restricted on model count. Say you're loading terminators in a Land Raider -- you get a reasonable number of attacks out of them if they have MoK. Or if you want your cultists to be crappier Ork Boyz.

Mark of Nurgle is mandatory on certain choices (Obliterators), and just greatly increases your survivability. Having most small arms fire now bounce off of you is often worth it.

Mark of Slaanesh is situational, and Mark of Tzeentch is generally bad except on Terminators, and even then you generally want MoK or MoN anyways.

- Chaos terminators were one of my favorite units from the old codex, and I practically cried when I saw the new ones. 182 points for FIVE combi-weapons on terminator mounts? My first reaction was "why don't all CSM lists start with their first 1100 points with 30 terminators?"

I mean, seriously, a squad of 10 costs just about as much as 10 combi-weapon sternguard in a drop pod. But they're TERMINATORS. Seriously, what am I missing here?

The thing that's really striking to me is to compare them to things like warp talons or chosen or posessed. Drop a couple of points per model more, and you get the whole world of extra goodness.

I'm totally in favor of people using Chaos Terminators, for the very reason that they're terminator armor + combi-weapons for less than terminator prices. Treat them as somewhat expendable, or even MoN or MoK them to get some extra punch out of them. The reason people don't use them is that they don't think Terminators in general are competitive. I think someone could do a Chaos Terminator Spam list, and with some good extras and good generalship, could really be a great tournament dark horse.

- I could take or leave the old CSM special characters. While the new lord is SO cheap that it feels like a shame not to include one, it looks like you're really getting what you pay for in special rules nowadays. In particular Huron's free outflanking everything and lucious' genuinely neat abilities seem like I'd be much more likely to want to actually take one. Or is the fact that the new lords are so cheap still what makes them the thing to take?

Lucius is a bit meh. He's nice in a duel, but not that astounding, and you could take a Slaanesh Biker or Steed Lord with the Burning Brand instead, and have more survivability/mobility.
Huron is amazing, probably one of the best in the book. He just gives you so many things, and doesn't cost more than a well-outfitted normal lord.
The base cheapness of Chaos Lords becomes a bit less so, when you're marking them and giving them the 4++, and either Terminator Armor/Juggernaut/Bike, and a Artifact of some kind, or Power Fist + Lightning Claw. They typically come to about 150-170 or so, but are very effective for that points level.

As I've said elsewhere, the big thing about Chaos HQ is that you need to use the HQ in concert with the army and the army in concert with the HQ. They have to play a certain role to truly be effective. Using a biker lord + bikes is nice, but if they're your only fast unit, they'll just get targeted and destroyed. You need multiple forward threats to take the pressure off your lord.

Or you could just keep them really cheap and throwaway, but typically you don't want to give away slay the warlord so quick, especially when you've got to challenge.

- A chaos player at my FLGS said that it's pretty much mandatory to take veterans of the long war, but I don't see why this is. It seems like for small squads, you wouldn't really miss the -1 Ld (tending to get destroyed, rather than run off), and with larger squads, you'd be spending so many points, that you might as well just take a dark apostle at a relative discount. Am I missing something with this?

Vets of the Long war is great on certain things, and situational elsewhere. On Obliterators, it's mandatory if there's more than one in the unit. Anything that wants to get into CC could use the Hatred for half the codices in the game, and the Leadership buff won't hurt. In other cases, it's more of a fluff option.

You don't see Dark Apostles because CSM's HQ slots are really competitive, and without the SW's 'take extra HQs' option, Lords, Sorcerers, and Special Characters often win out, to the detriment of cool, effective, but slightly less competitive choices like the Dark Apostle.

- I know warpsmiths are rather disapproved of, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why. They cost the same as a lord with terminator armor, but come with a lot of neat kit, including extra attacks, free guns, and general support abilities like screwing with terrain and buffing vehicles. That you can take artifacts makes me think that they can stay on par with the lord even when you're willing to throw around more points on HQ choices.

Like Dark Apostles, Warpsmiths are slightly more situational than Lords/Sorcerers/Special Characters, and when you're taking a Marked Lord + a Level 3 Sorcerer with Telepathy, you can see that there's no room for a Warpsmith. That's not to say they're bad, not at all. Secret BS5 Meltaguns are silly, and since cover-hugging is so common, cursing ruins is quite effective. Getting a bunch of AP2 on a character that normally looks quite squishy isn't bad either.

They work well in Chaos Vehicle Spam Lists, with lots of dinobots, helbrutes, Predators, Vindicators, etc. The problem is that people aren't taking many Chaos Vehicles other than the heldrake. A Vehicle list with a Warpsmith would be another effective dark horse candidate.

Anyways, thanks in advance for some answers. In general, I liked the new codex, even though it does seem a bit blander than the old (not only in fluff, but also in removing some of the best crazy things like gifts of chaos). The pictures were beautiful, though. I'm not keen on the new DV stuff, but I hadn't taken a close enough look at some of the other new things they came out with as model releases as well.

Yeah, the codex definitely feels bland. It does have the capacity to surprise people with how solid it can play though. The DV stuff really needs to be a precursor to a new basic Chaos Space Marine kit, which is getting a bit dated. When you put a 4th ed CSM model against a 6th ed Raptor, you can see the amount of detail in the new kit, that really should be on basic troops as well.

Also, one thing to note is that the Codex is often called "Go nurgle or go home". No seriously compare nurglite units and marks and toys from the book and FW to those of other gods and undivided. With a few exceptions Nurgle is almost always the best choice.

On the subject of Maulerfiends+Warpsmiths and a list built around them, I threw this together for comments:

2000 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1962

HQ: Warpsmith (1#, 125 pts)
1 Warpsmith, 125 pts = (base cost 110 + Mark of Nurgle 15)

HQ: Chaos Lord (1#, 150 pts)
1 Chaos Lord, 150 pts = (base cost 65 + Mark of Nurgle 15 + Blight Grenades 5 + Lightning Claw x1 15 + Power Fist x1 25 + Sigil of Corruption 25)

Troops: Plague Marines (8#, 238 pts)
6 Plague Marines, 164 pts = 6 * 24 (base cost 24) + Meltagun x2 20
1 Plague Champion, 24 pts
1 Chaos Rhino, 50 pts = (base cost 35 + Dirge Caster 5 + Extra Armour 10)

Troops: Plague Marines (8#, 238 pts)
6 Plague Marines, 164 pts = 6 * 24 (base cost 24) + Meltagun x2 20
1 Plague Champion, 24 pts
1 Chaos Rhino, 50 pts = (base cost 35 + Dirge Caster 5 + Extra Armour 10)

Troops: Plague Marines (8#, 248 pts)
6 Plague Marines, 174 pts = 6 * 24 (base cost 24) + Plasma gun x2 30
1 Plague Champion, 24 pts
1 Chaos Rhino, 50 pts = (base cost 35 + Dirge Caster 5 + Extra Armour 10)

Troops: Plague Marines (8#, 248 pts)
6 Plague Marines, 174 pts = 6 * 24 (base cost 24) + Plasma gun x2 30
1 Plague Champion, 24 pts
1 Chaos Rhino, 50 pts = (base cost 35 + Dirge Caster 5 + Extra Armour 10)

Fast Attack: Heldrake (1#, 170 pts)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts

Fast Attack: Heldrake (1#, 170 pts)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend, 125 pts

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend, 125 pts

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend, 125 pts

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.21 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Named or Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission; b-2. Levels of Alliance: Battle Brothers
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
HQ: 2 (1 - 2)
Elite: 0 (0 - 3)
Troops: 4 (2 - 6)
Fast: 2 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 3 (0 - 3)
Fort: 0 (0 - 1)

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

The general gist of the army is the rhinos move up turn one, pop smoke and conceal the maulerfiends. Then turn two the split to the side allowing the maulerfiends through while unloading their troops (for those who haven't been popped on turn one). One or two squads support the maulerfiends in close combat while the rest (melta squads) tank hunt or shoot stuff. The heldrakes provide air support.

Thoughts? It has 38 points to spare, I was hoping to throw in some raptors or warp talons to make a really off-mainstream list, but didnt have room.

To add to a few of your Questions

1) The Allure of Obliterators has always been their flexibility, and as noted earlier they can now tick up to toughness 5 to give the finger to Melta and Las Cannon Blasts that people liked to shoot at them. To me an Obliterator is a Flexible unit which marches towards the enemy, firing progressively shorter ranged weapons, until it eventually can double tap plasma and charge in with its power fist. Its a 2 wound terminator with most of the good weapons in the game! Its flexible, dangerous in close combat and long range, durable enough to require a lot of shooting to remove. They can apply a lot of pressure, add flexible long range to a chaos list, and can be used to deep strike melta if you need to. They have less straight up fire power than a Havoc Squad or Predator, but they can engage more targets and fend for themselves in close quarters. If you are using specialist troops, having obliterators can be an excellent band-aide to cover multiple weaknesses of your list simultaniously.

2) Bikes and Raptors both got a lot better in the new book, but they still pale in comparison to the Heldrake. They make decent melee squads due to their speed, but as noted their primary purpose is to deliver special weapons like Melta or Plasma into the enemy.

3) Noise Marines and Plague Marines are still very good. Plague Marines got a bit pricier, but they also got a huge buff in close combat, since the plague knife gives them poison attacks. Re-Rolls vs t4 and lower, and straight up 4+ rolls vs tough monsters. Then you consider that Defensive Grenades give a cover save at close ranges, and Blight Grenades are suddenly far better. Plague Marines are survivable, can take 2 specials at any size which makes small squads more effective for spamming special weapons than regular CSM, and have defensive grenades and poisoned CC attacks stock. Also FNP is excellent.

As for Noise Marines, the Icon of Excess though expensive can get larger squads FnP, then the FAQ dropped allowing for 1 Blast Master or 2 at 10+ models. Sonic Weapons pack a solid punch, and are only avaialbe on Noise Marines. With Noise Marines you need to build them to suit your purposes though. If you mix and match sonic weapons too much the squad just becomes unwieldy. Aim for either a Long- Mid Range Squad with a Blastmaster and Sonic Blasters, or a Rapid Fire Range Squad with a Doom Siren and Bolters.

Regular CSM are decent, cheap, and can be built to perform certain tasks admirably. But they are limited in that you need a full 10 for 2 special weapons (unlike Plague Marines), they don't have the awesome gear that comes on Plague Marines, and if you want sonic weapons you NEED Noise Marines to take it. Also Fearless Stock is always swell.

4) Thariinye hit the nail on the head with his Mark Analysis. Mark of Khorne is pretty decent for Rage and Counter Attack, which can make a squad of CSM play like Grey Hunters, Rapid Fire, reward people with counter attack if they charge you, or you can charge them later with a Rage Boost. Mark of Khorne is also needed to get the Axe of Blind Fury and a Juggernaut which is probably the best lord build for pure killing power. Mark of Slaanesh gives you a bit of a combat edge, and unlocks the Icon of Excess for that sweet sweet FnP which is excellent on larger squads of Marines, especially foot slogging blocks of 10+. Mark of Nurgle is awesome. Mark of Tzeentch is worse than Mark of Nurgle except maybe on regular Terminators.

5) Veterans of the Long war is mainly for the leadership boost. hatred is nice when it works, but if you don't have a fearless squad having leadership 9/10 can be nice. Especially on squads of Oblits which are only leadership 8. But still, if you need points, Veterans is a good thing to cut. It just makes your units a bit more reliable.

I find VotLW a near mandatory upgrade for Havocs or Oblits. A few points to keep them from running.

In larger squads, IoV becomes an option but I still think it's overpriced.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/525787.page#5630384

That thread (imo) sums the Warpsmith up nicely.

RE: Maulerfiends - IMO they are great in a high speed/high pressure list with lots of armor saturation. Otherwise, in most metas, there is enough str7+ to knock them out quickly.

For VoTLW - I usually skip it. Kelley lowered our LD stat by 1 and then wrote that rule back in as a hamfisted way to bring them back up to the old level. I have found that CSM almost always under-perform compared to what you would expect out of them so IMO it's better to keep them cheap as possible and bring a lot of them. That being said, someone mentioned putting it on Havocs. That I could see, but I don't run Havocs.

Oblits - I'm with the OP. While you can give them MoN to avoid ID, they lost fearless so they are a no go for me. Especially with the Predator being as cheap as it is.

Raptors - Yes, they got cheaper, but they are still fairly expensive and they are competeing for slots with Spawn, Bikers and Heldrakes. Most CSM players would much rather have one or two Drakes and some Nurgle spawn or Bikers then the Raptors. They did get cheaper but are not quite worth their cost IMO.

Cult troops - For the most part no. There is not much point to them outside Nurgle's boys (there's a reason many call it codex Nurgle or nothing).

Terminators - They are not bad but you have to keep in mind that we no longer have any kind of reliable deep strike beacons so termicide is a little more difficult now. The upside is that the Elites slot is so terrible in this book that the terminators aren't competing with anything.

Generally speaking, this codex needs you to decide what you want your army to do and then build a list around it. By that I mean that true TAC lists are difficult to build. You generally need to make a list that has one goal and does that one thing really well.

- None of the CSM players I've seen around the FLGS scene have ever played a maulerfiend. Why is that? With beast, MTC, and fleet, it seems pretty certain to arrange a turn 2 charge (or turn 1, if your opponent moves stuff towards you), a charge that gets 4 S10 Ap2 hits with a pretty decent chance of a free meltagun hit on the charge, with the chance of two. And the damage can be made even worse with the demonforge. Given that it's an Av12 vehicle with a 5++, combined with its speed, makes it seem rather likely to get where it's going.

They are good, and I see them used more and more. They are a decent buy for their points, but are deceptively fragile.

- Are people still fawning over themselves about obliterators? I know they got cheaper, but so did their competitors. For the price of a pair of them, I could now get a 4-lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator, both of which look like they'd do more damage sooner. Also, they can no longer scatterless deepstrike, right?

They can't be stunned/shaken, the can move and fire, they have a 2+/5++, 2W, and T5. They give CSM some much needed versatility. Havocs are cheaper, but static fire is terrible.

- Both raptors and bikes feel like they've gotten cheaper. Also, it looks like rather the whole point of them is to take advantage of the lower-model-count special weapons slots. Is there much of a point to larger squads now, or are they mostly cheap, disposable meltagun suicide units?

I don't think there is much of a point to either, as they are outclassed by both Drakes and Nurgle Spawn.

- Is there much point to cult troops anymore? I recall that it was already slightly iffy to take berzerkers over marked CSM, for example, but it seems even iffier now. Why pay 19 points for a berzerker when I could spend 15 on a marked CSM with nearly the same abilities? Likewise, FNP is neat, but the price hike from nurgle CSM to plague marines seems horrendously steep.

No. They are way too expensive.

- That said, is it even worth it to bother marking? I liked the idea of splashing a diety on troops in large squads, but now that you have to pay per-model, it doesn't seem quite so worth it anymore. I guess it's cheaper for small squads than they used to be, but it seems like the point of having a codex filled with a cheaper, crappier unit of a certain other codex's stuff would be so that you could spam them harder.

It gets too expensive too fast. Marking CSM with pistol and CCW with MoK isn't horrible.

- Chaos terminators were one of my favorite units from the old codex, and I practically cried when I saw the new ones. 182 points for FIVE combi-weapons on terminator mounts? My first reaction was "why don't all CSM lists start with their first 1100 points with 30 terminators?"

They aren't bad, and you certainly could make that work. They aren't scoring though.

- I could take or leave the old CSM special characters. While the new lord is SO cheap that it feels like a shame not to include one, it looks like you're really getting what you pay for in special rules nowadays. In particular Huron's free outflanking everything and lucious' genuinely neat abilities seem like I'd be much more likely to want to actually take one. Or is the fact that the new lords are so cheap still what makes them the thing to take?

Bike MoN Lord with fist/claw or Mace is nasty. Jugger Khorne Lord with Axe is nasty too.

- A chaos player at my FLGS said that it's pretty much mandatory to take veterans of the long war, but I don't see why this is. It seems like for small squads, you wouldn't really miss the -1 Ld (tending to get destroyed, rather than run off), and with larger squads, you'd be spending so many points, that you might as well just take a dark apostle at a relative discount. Am I missing something with this?

I don't think it is worth it, but I don't think the normal CSM are particularly worth it.

- I know warpsmiths are rather disapproved of, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why. They cost the same as a lord with terminator armor, but come with a lot of neat kit, including extra attacks, free guns, and general support abilities like screwing with terrain and buffing vehicles. That you can take artifacts makes me think that they can stay on par with the lord even when you're willing to throw around more points on HQ choices.

Lords, ML3 Sorcerers, and Tzeentch Mace Princes outclass them. That is why they aren't seen.

The apostle and warpsmith are both options that shouldn't take a space on the FoC just like their loyalist counterparts, but since they do the lord and sorcerer are just way better for the same cost

The apostle and warpsmith are both options that shouldn't take a space on the FoC just like their loyalist counterparts, but since they do the lord and sorcerer are just way better for the same cost

I have an issue with this statement. I agree that the smith should not be taking up a full slot. On the other hand - the Apostle shouldn't even be taking up an entry anywhere in the book imo. Just like Warp Talons and Mutilators ... He is just that bad and that poorly thought out. He could have been amazing, but he's a completely missed opportunity. I've never seen one fielded and my two FLGS have yet to actually sell one. Think how cool he could have been if he were even half as cool as the Dark Apostles in the Word Bearers books. He could even have been a opportunity to you know, actually USE the 6th ed rules. For example, how cool would it have been for him to allow you to take allies without paying the allies tax?

A lot of good points already brought up. Some others I'd add:

 Ailaros wrote:
- None of the CSM players I've seen around the FLGS scene have ever played a maulerfiend. Why is that? With beast, MTC, and fleet, it seems pretty certain to arrange a turn 2 charge (or turn 1, if your opponent moves stuff towards you), a charge that gets 4 S10 Ap2 hits with a pretty decent chance of a free meltagun hit on the charge, with the chance of two. And the damage can be made even worse with the demonforge. Given that it's an Av12 vehicle with a 5++, combined with its speed, makes it seem rather likely to get where it's going.

At first glance, it looks pretty beaty. What am I missing?

It's a Heavy Support choice with no ranged weapons. It moves at Infantry paces and has no means to get up close on its own other than walking. Speaking from experience (having used Bjorn a few times who is AV 13 and has a 5++), the only reason Heldrakes are hard to deal with is the fact you have to Snap Fire at them. A single unit of Long Fangs with Missiles is going to Penetrate 74% of the time, and that's without buffs like Prescience. A Maulerfiend is basically dead on Turn 1 when all the heavy weapons don't need to take pot shots at a Heldrake.

 Ailaros wrote:
- Are people still fawning over themselves about obliterators? I know they got cheaper, but so did their competitors. For the price of a pair of them, I could now get a 4-lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator, both of which look like they'd do more damage sooner. Also, they can no longer scatterless deepstrike, right?

Obliterators are juicy:
- MoN makes them T5 so they are almost immune to Instant Death.
- They are multi-wound TEQ, so they can absorb a lot of firepower.
- They have a healthy selection of weapons so they can deal with everything.
- They can Deep Strike so they can get to where you need them.
- There is even some great synergy with the CSM's Battle Brothers: Chaos Daemons. Chaos Daemons has stuff that affects all "friendly" models with the "Daemon" rule, of which Obliterators qualify. So you can do handy things to pull your Obliterators in whenever you need them.

So there is a lot going for them. Tough, versatile, flexible. Its a wonderful combination.

 Ailaros wrote:
- Both raptors and bikes feel like they've gotten cheaper. Also, it looks like rather the whole point of them is to take advantage of the lower-model-count special weapons slots. Is there much of a point to larger squads now, or are they mostly cheap, disposable meltagun suicide units?

Raptors are a bit bad. Warp Talons are worse. Bikes are pretty good, particularly with MoN. Bike units in general got a buff in 6E, but T6 bikes are always fun. Mainly used as a vehicle for Chaos Lords to be delivered, though I see more lists using MoN Chaos Spawn for that.

 Ailaros wrote:
- Is there much point to cult troops anymore? I recall that it was already slightly iffy to take berzerkers over marked CSM, for example, but it seems even iffier now. Why pay 19 points for a berzerker when I could spend 15 on a marked CSM with nearly the same abilities? Likewise, FNP is neat, but the price hike from nurgle CSM to plague marines seems horrendously steep.

All of them are Fearless, which is nice since CSM do not get ATSKNF. Some of them have added bonuses though:
- Berzerkers haven't been amazing for a little while. They're great at killing basic troops and that's about it. A small unit would be workable, but really they aren't worth the points since they lack shooting.
- Thousand Sons always are bad. Too expensive; though I love the idea of having Sorcerers leading squads its just not worth it since you can't swap out their power (as far as I'm aware).
- Noise Marines are a very solid choice now as well. They are cheap and with the FAQ they can take Blastmasters in 5 man squads (or two in a 10 man). Very shooty. Probably don't need more than 1.
- Plague Marines are still really tough to kill. T5, FNP, 3+ Save, Fearless, and can take two special weapons in a 5 man squad. Double Plasma in a 5 man squad is only 150 points, and they could easily take on a Tactical Squad (which is likely to cost slightly more).

All in all, there are reasons to take some of the Cult troops. Particularly since they can be scoring. You are definitely better served with a mix of units in this Codex however.

 Ailaros wrote:
- That said, is it even worth it to bother marking? I liked the idea of splashing a diety on troops in large squads, but now that you have to pay per-model, it doesn't seem quite so worth it anymore. I guess it's cheaper for small squads than they used to be, but it seems like the point of having a codex filled with a cheaper, crappier unit of a certain other codex's stuff would be so that you could spam them harder.

I like me my upgrades that dish out more damage, don't get me wrong, but it seems like points spent on marks would be constantly conflicting with adding more meltaguns or adding in another whole unit.

It really isn't worth marking Cultists at all. Some Marks can be useful to CSM:
- MoS is useful, as it gets you Initiative 5. With an Icon, MoS gets you FNP but its expensive.
- MoN is useful as it gets you Toughness 5.
- MoT is garbage.
- MoK gets you Rage and Counter-Attack, but its not really worth it when MoS is better against MEQ.

MoS is probably the most competitive choice for CSM. You'd want to take 10+ man squads to make the Icon worth it, but MEQ with Initiative 5 and FNP is very useful. The downside is you lose Fearless (Icon of Vengeance) unless you stick an HQ in with them.

 Ailaros wrote:
- Chaos terminators were one of my favorite units from the old codex, and I practically cried when I saw the new ones. 182 points for FIVE combi-weapons on terminator mounts? My first reaction was "why don't all CSM lists start with their first 1100 points with 30 terminators?"

I mean, seriously, a squad of 10 costs just about as much as 10 combi-weapon sternguard in a drop pod. But they're TERMINATORS. Seriously, what am I missing here?

The thing that's really striking to me is to compare them to things like warp talons or chosen or posessed. Drop a couple of points per model more, and you get the whole world of extra goodness.

Chaos Terminators are absolutely amazing. People should definitely take them. But they can never be scoring, so its not worth spamming a bunch. The fact you can take a single unit of them in every point size game is amazing though. And TEQ is very strong this edition. They are definitely the "best in slot" where it comes to Elites (followed by Chosen IMO).

 Ailaros wrote:
- I could take or leave the old CSM special characters. While the new lord is SO cheap that it feels like a shame not to include one, it looks like you're really getting what you pay for in special rules nowadays. In particular Huron's free outflanking everything and lucious' genuinely neat abilities seem like I'd be much more likely to want to actually take one. Or is the fact that the new lords are so cheap still what makes them the thing to take?

- Abaddon is the deadliest Character in the game right now. He can slaughter pretty much whatever he faces, be it in a Challenge or not. It really is down to him screwing up is Daemon Weapon roll if he's going to die or not. I'm not convinced scoring Chosen are a good option though.
- Typhus adds an amazing amount of flexibility for some lists. Plague Zombies (Cultists with Fearless and FNP and no ranged attacks) are cheap and useful and scoring. He also makes Plague Marines scoring. Destroyer Hive is a fun and useful ability, he's a T5 TEQ with FNP, and a Psyker Mastery Level 2 to boot.
- Don't underestimate Master of Deception. The flexibility that gives you is amazing. More than Outflanking, being able to Infiltrate any Infantry unit is powerful on its own. 30 Cultists or 15 CSM in the right position early on can really change how the game will play out. Huron is a neat and cheap way to guarantee you can do this.

That said, Chaos Lords are amazing. Really popular right now are the MoN on a Bike Chaos Lords. Killy, and gives you scoring Plague Marines.

 Ailaros wrote:
- A chaos player at my FLGS said that it's pretty much mandatory to take veterans of the long war, but I don't see why this is. It seems like for small squads, you wouldn't really miss the -1 Ld (tending to get destroyed, rather than run off), and with larger squads, you'd be spending so many points, that you might as well just take a dark apostle at a relative discount. Am I missing something with this?

Preferred Enemy vs Space Marines of all flavors, and most players have a Space Marine army. Plus if you are taking a Mark and Icon on your unit, you miss out on being able to take an Icon of Vengeance to give the CSM unit Fearless. Plus you can only have two HQ choices so you tend to have units that do need the extra Leadership. Havocs come to mind.

I wouldn't say its a must, but its very hard to pass up.

 Ailaros wrote:
- I know warpsmiths are rather disapproved of, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why. They cost the same as a lord with terminator armor, but come with a lot of neat kit, including extra attacks, free guns, and general support abilities like screwing with terrain and buffing vehicles. That you can take artifacts makes me think that they can stay on par with the lord even when you're willing to throw around more points on HQ choices.

- Shatter Defences is largely useless as it can't affect Fortifications
- Master of Mechanisms is cute, but not effective
- Can only take a 5++ save as they miss out on Sigil of Corruption
- You only have 2 HQ slots on the FOC and Dark Apostles and Sorcerors, to say nothing of Daemon Princes, Special Characters, or just plain Chaos Lords, are all better choices. Basically, its not a terrible unit but everything else is just so much better you never get a chance to take it if you are making a competitive list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:
have an issue with this statement. I agree that the smith should not be taking up a full slot. On the other hand - the Apostle shouldn't even be taking up an entry anywhere in the book imo. Just like Warp Talons and Mutilators ... He is just that bad and that poorly thought out. He could have been amazing, but he's a completely missed opportunity. I've never seen one fielded and my two FLGS have yet to actually sell one.

He's not really that bad, though he is near the bottom of the pile in the overflowing HQ choices available in the CSM Codex. Beseech the Dark Gods is kind of "meh" but Demagogue can save you a few points. He comes with a 3+/4++ already and can take most of the options you'd want. Zealot is damned useful, giving you Hatred and Fearless in the unit he leads. Hatred is better than Preferred Enemy, and the Apostle hates everything.

Really, he's a force multiplier. He has his uses. He just belongs in the Elite slot since they stuffed the HQ choices with too much goodness already.

Tycho wrote:
Think how cool he could have been if he were even half as cool as the Dark Apostles in the Word Bearers books. He could even have been a opportunity to you know, actually USE the 6th ed rules. For example, how cool would it have been for him to allow you to take allies without paying the allies tax?

Depending how it was implemented, either useless or game breaking more than cool most likely.

It's a Heavy Support choice with no ranged weapons. It moves at Infantry paces and has no means to get up close on its own other than walking. Speaking from experience (having used Bjorn a few times who is AV 13 and has a 5++), the only reason Heldrakes are hard to deal with is the fact you have to Snap Fire at them. A single unit of Long Fangs with Missiles is going to Penetrate 74% of the time, and that's without buffs like Prescience. A Maulerfiend is basically dead on Turn 1 when all the heavy weapons don't need to take pot shots at a Heldrake.

I've never seen anything kill a Maulerfiend turn 1. That seems like a little bit of hyperbole. It's certainly possible I suppose, but not the auto-kill you're making it seem like. Also, no. it does not move at infantry speed. It is much faster with a 12" move. Bjorn is not really an apt comparison in that regard imo. The Mfiend also has very high strength AND armorbane. Like I said, it is not very good if you're just taking it as an add on by itself, but if you take two and are willing to build a list around them, they suddenly get very nasty. That's actually one of the hallmarks of this book. There's a lot of units that on their own don't really do much, but if you're willing to commit resources to building a list around those units they suddenly become pretty tough.

Depending how it was implemented, either useless or game breaking more than cool most likely.

I don't think so. It could even have been something as simple as "If you take an allied detachment the Dark Apostle counts as the mandatory HQ slot for that detachment and does not count against your Chaos Marine FOC slots" or something like that. It wouldn't take much to make him more useful. As it is, I just can't ever see taking him over a sorcerer or one of the cheap lord options. Although I do agree with you on moving him to the Elites slot.

 Ailaros wrote:
I know that the Chaos codex isn't all that new anymore, but having finally gotten around to reading it, it's new to me. I haven't exactly had my finger on the pulse of CSM players in the tactics forum, so I'll have to apologize if the answers to some of these are painfully obvious, and I've just missed them.

- None of the CSM players I've seen around the FLGS scene have ever played a maulerfiend. Why is that? With beast, MTC, and fleet, it seems pretty certain to arrange a turn 2 charge (or turn 1, if your opponent moves stuff towards you), a charge that gets 4 S10 Ap2 hits with a pretty decent chance of a free meltagun hit on the charge, with the chance of two. And the damage can be made even worse with the demonforge. Given that it's an Av12 vehicle with a 5++, combined with its speed, makes it seem rather likely to get where it's going.

chaos players have been crying over not having a fast CC option and now that they have one they don't want to use it, I don't know why. I run two and I love them.

Maulerfiends are not awful on their own, however they compete for the busiest FOC slot in the codex. Obliterators, havocs and predators are usually a much more attractive choice than a maulerfiend. The other issue with them is that you basically need to make a list around them for them to work well. You need to throw in bike lord with spawn or bikers and have an all out assault army. If you bring a single maulerfiend it will just get wasted as there would be no question about target priority when a single one shows up in front of you.

Also, their low number of attacks prevents them from being truly great. I have seen them whiff on all their attacks one too many times. Plus, at I3 lots of people will get a chance to plant a melta bomb on them before they ever swing.

Thanks for everyone's input!

For cult troops, I did totally miss the fact that you can't take the sonic weapons with marked CSM, and you wouldn't really have any choice if you wanted that kind of a unit. For nurgle, I still don't get it. The cost of 10x CSM with two meltaguns is only a little bit more than 5x plague marines with two meltaguns. +T and FNP is nice, but it doesn't give anywhere near the extra survivability as having twice as many models, especially once we start talking about dedicated anti-MEq weapons that will likely wound on 2's and possibly ignore FNP anyways. I don't see how plague knives and blight grenades are enough to make up for the durability and firepower deficits.

As for maulerfiends, I've been thinking a bit more in-depth about them. Realistically, having to eat two turns of shooting before they get into close combat with something is the practical worst case scenario, thanks to their speed and ability to ignore cover, and fleet. I don't see how keeping them alive for that long would be that difficult, given that they only need 25% obscurement to get cover saves, which they can do without sacrificing forward mobility thanks to MTC. Even without getting a choice ruins cover save, or whatever, they still do have the 5++ everywhere, AV12 is still proof against a big majority of weapons, and even if you start taking some glancing hits, you have it will not die. And you've only got to survive for one or two turns before you comprehensively end something. I mean, for 125 points. That seems like a steal.

I guess if you insist on having other stuff moving forward, then I guess you could put three of them (still reasonably priced) into a list that has huron infiltrating terminators up to mid-field, or a shooty rhino-rush, or land raider spam or something, but that doesn't seem to be the biggest of problems.

I also don't get the fall-over-self love affair with helldrakes. Don't get me wrong, I love my my torrent weapons, but it hardly seems an end-all, especially since it's never going to be that terribly credible of a threat against vehicles, terminators, or monstrous creatures (or, against smart opponents, hordes, for that matter). It feels like there's a couple of things that it does really well, but that's all that it really does at all. Saying that there's no point to meltagun bikes when there are helldrakes is like saying there's no point to vendettas when there are ogryn, or that there's no point to lootaz when there are burnaz.

Plus, does the codex really have problems handling Sv3+ without bale flamers? I don't really see why that would be true.

I still don't get why the warpsmith is bad. I mean, you can take one with a mark of khorne and axe of blind fury. The only thing you lose is the juggernought, but you gain vehicle repair, cover reduction, decent shooting and, ironically, more attacks in close combat. I guess I don't see why the lord is just straight away always better here.

Anyways, thanks again for everyone's responses.

Also, their low number of attacks prevents them from being truly great. I have seen them whiff on all their attacks one too many times. Plus, at I3 lots of people will get a chance to plant a melta bomb on them before they ever swing.

They are intended to kill vehicles/fortifications though. If you have one in combat with troops you've probably either made a mistake or been outplayed ...

Helldrakes absolutely destroy meq foot lists. Or meqs that get put on foot. If the usage of meqs goes down, I agree that the fabulousness of the helldrake goes down, too.

The helldrake just does the job so well that it makes several matchups against popular lists practically auto-rofl stomp.

To understand the exact impact of the helldrake, Company 11 has a great podcast called "helldrake does as helldrake pleases" that explains it better than I.

(see below)

As for Maulerfiends and Melta Bomb. Remember that the bombs are I1 so you're swinging first.
You also get a 5++ save, so you're not quite as vulnerable as it appears.

Tycho wrote:

Also, their low number of attacks prevents them from being truly great. I have seen them whiff on all their attacks one too many times. Plus, at I3 lots of people will get a chance to plant a melta bomb on them before they ever swing.

They are intended to kill vehicles/fortifications though. If you have one in combat with troops you've probably either made a mistake or been outplayed ...

they are great for character hunting, though. Not a lot of people are going to spend extra points to put melta on their HQs, the way I see it, this thing could muk up gazgull for at least a turn and maybe put some wounds on him.

Tycho wrote: If you have one in combat with troops you've probably either made a mistake or been outplayed ...

Why would that be? I mean, he gets 4 S10 Ap2 attacks at I3, on the charge and if any of them hit, you get a free meltagun hit in close combat. In return, you're talking about something with AV12, a 5++ and it will not die. Sure, there are going to be things that can beat it in close combat, but that doesn't seem like a very long list.

It would be especially entertaining to get into close combat with paladins or most other elite units.

Martel732 wrote:Helldrakes absolutely destroy meq foot lists.

Firstly, does anyone actually run MEq foot hordes?

Secondly, as mentioned, do you need helldrakes for this? I feel like the whole codex is more or less designed to kill space marines. I don't know why you'd need a special kind of unit just to handle what your army was already good at.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tycho wrote: If you have one in combat with troops you've probably either made a mistake or been outplayed ...

Why would that be? I mean, he gets 4 S10 Ap2 attacks at I3, on the charge and if any of them hit, you get a free meltagun hit in close combat. In return, you're talking about something with AV12, a 5++ and it will not die. Sure, there are going to be things that can beat it in close combat, but that doesn't seem like a very long list.

It would be especially entertaining to get into close combat with paladins or most other elite units.

Your totally right, but the magma cutters aren't even the best part, IMO the lasher tendrils are totally worth the price (and much easier to model) How many attacks does a squad of paladins have without the charge? Because the lasher tendrils reduce each model in B2B by two attacks Thats two less attacks they'll even get to throw at you regardless of gear.

I also don't get the fall-over-self love affair with helldrakes. Don't get me wrong, I love my my torrent weapons, but it hardly seems an end-all, especially since it's never going to be that terribly credible of a threat against vehicles, terminators, or monstrous creatures (or, against smart opponents, hordes, for that matter). It feels like there's a couple of things that it does really well, but that's all that it really does at all. Saying that there's no point to meltagun bikes when there are helldrakes is like saying there's no point to vendettas when there are ogryn, or that there's no point to lootaz when there are burnaz.

A unit doesn't need to be able to demolish everything in the game in order to be a good unit. While Drakes aren't going to kill Terminators or really threaten monstrous creatures (Vector Strikes aren't bad though), they obliterate almost all other units. Keep in mind, the early 6th edition meta was quickly becoming "drop 60-70 MEQ bodies down". Drakes changed that. Those foolish enough to still take Rhinos full of MEQ now watch in horror as they lose 10 models to a single shot. While I agree that spreading out helps--alot--it is also not possible in every circumstance. You CAN limit the Drake to 3-4 models. You don't always get a chance to do this though.

I don't particularly get the analogy you make. Vendettas aren't competing with Orgyns for the same FOC slot. I understand that you are saying that the melta bikes and Drakes fill different roles, but you have to account for opportunity cost. Can you get meltas in other places in the codex? The answer is that in almost every slot, you can. Furthermore, you can get "fast" and "in-your face" meltas courtesy of Terminators via the sub par elite slot. What you don't get other places is arguably the best single unit in the game--the Helldrake. Additionally, you cannot get a unit comparable to Nurgle Spawn in other slots either. So, while the bikes aren't "bad" by any stretch, they miss out based on the necessity of the other competing units. Similar to the way that 5th edition Nid elites like the Doom and Ymgarl Stealers were good choices, yet didn't see the field due to the existence and necessity of Hive Guard.

I still don't get why the warpsmith is bad. I mean, you can take one with a mark of khorne and axe of blind fury. The only thing you lose is the juggernought, but you gain vehicle repair, cover reduction, decent shooting and, ironically, more attacks in close combat. I guess I don't see why the lord is just straight away always better here.

Basically, the issue is that the Axe of Blind Fury is better on the Khorne lord with Juggernuaght imo. All of the Warpsmith's abilities are mutually exclusive (if he's repairing a vehicle he isn't swinging that axe) and most of those special abilities are unreliable on top of that. He's just like a loyalist tech marine., only way more expensive and not nearly as good at anything he does as the Loyalist Tech marine. Also, if you're taking him for CC ability, you now have the added issue of getting him into combat. With the general lack of 2+ armor in CSM, the Warpsmith suddenly becomes a plasma magnet. Finally, there's the FOC issue - he's simply in a slot that has a lot of really good options that tend to edge him out. The thread I linked to in my earlier post really has a good and impartial breakdown of his pros and cons.

 Ailaros wrote:
Thanks for everyone's input!

For cult troops, I did totally miss the fact that you can't take the sonic weapons with marked CSM, and you wouldn't really have any choice if you wanted that kind of a unit. For nurgle, I still don't get it. The cost of 10x CSM with two meltaguns is only a little bit more than 5x plague marines with two meltaguns. +T and FNP is nice, but it doesn't give anywhere near the extra survivability as having twice as many models, especially once we start talking about dedicated anti-MEq weapons that will likely wound on 2's and possibly ignore FNP anyways. I don't see how plague knives and blight grenades are enough to make up for the durability and firepower deficits.

As for maulerfiends, I've been thinking a bit more in-depth about them. Realistically, having to eat two turns of shooting before they get into close combat with something is the practical worst case scenario, thanks to their speed and ability to ignore cover, and fleet. I don't see how keeping them alive for that long would be that difficult, given that they only need 25% obscurement to get cover saves, which they can do without sacrificing forward mobility thanks to MTC. Even without getting a choice ruins cover save, or whatever, they still do have the 5++ everywhere, AV12 is still proof against a big majority of weapons, and even if you start taking some glancing hits, you have it will not die. And you've only got to survive for one or two turns before you comprehensively end something. I mean, for 125 points. That seems like a steal.

I guess if you insist on having other stuff moving forward, then I guess you could put three of them (still reasonably priced) into a list that has huron infiltrating terminators up to mid-field, or a shooty rhino-rush, or land raider spam or something, but that doesn't seem to be the biggest of problems.

I also don't get the fall-over-self love affair with helldrakes. Don't get me wrong, I love my my torrent weapons, but it hardly seems an end-all, especially since it's never going to be that terribly credible of a threat against vehicles, terminators, or monstrous creatures (or, against smart opponents, hordes, for that matter). It feels like there's a couple of things that it does really well, but that's all that it really does at all. Saying that there's no point to meltagun bikes when there are helldrakes is like saying there's no point to vendettas when there are ogryn, or that there's no point to lootaz when there are burnaz.

Plus, does the codex really have problems handling Sv3+ without bale flamers? I don't really see why that would be true.

I still don't get why the warpsmith is bad. I mean, you can take one with a mark of khorne and axe of blind fury. The only thing you lose is the juggernought, but you gain vehicle repair, cover reduction, decent shooting and, ironically, more attacks in close combat. I guess I don't see why the lord is just straight away always better here.

Anyways, thanks again for everyone's responses.

So addressing some points here

I think the Plague Marine Buff is Fearless in this case CSM have more wounds until the get swept or run off the table.

Maulerfiends are decent in multiples in a Threat overload list, otherwise they die pretty easily to anti tank shooting. AV12 is also Meh in CC against things like Marines with Krak Grenades. They are also Meh against Horde units they don't kill things fast enough. They are good though.

Heldrakes are very good, the big part is S6 ignores cover, and S7 Vector strikes ignoring cover. Being able to double out things like IG heavy weapons teams, Razorwing flocks etc, is good. But I don't run multiples as the other choices in the slot are good.

As for the Warp Smith, sure he can take the axe and be a wopping WS 3(instead of 5), isn't he also I 4 (instead of 5) and he is slow. Which means he needs transport to really make his points in a game if he is walking.

Why would that be? I mean, he gets 4 S10 Ap2 attacks at I3, on the charge and if any of them hit, you get a free meltagun hit in close combat. In return, you're talking about something with AV12, a 5++ and it will not die. Sure, there are going to be things that can beat it in close combat, but that doesn't seem like a very long list.

It would be especially entertaining to get into close combat with paladins or most other elite units.

It's probably more meta-dependent than anything, but it's utility at killing vehicles and just so amazing that unless there were no other targets available, sending it after a squad (which in my meta is going to be anywhere from 10 to 40 models - not really much MSU here) is a bit of a waste imo. Especially when you don't typically have enough attacks to kill the squad in one turn. You will likely force a moral check in a lot of cases but even that can backfire. Then you're stuck in a combat for multiple turns with one squad when you could be out crushing vehicles and structures (and possibly characters as someone else mentioned). This was actually well demonstrated in the CSM White Dwarf debut. The CSM player mentioned one of his big mistakes was getting his MF tied down in combat with a squad.