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Anybody have an opinion on why you would take Terminators vs Knights? Advantages and Disadvantages to either?

I dont have any real experiance with knights, but i can say normal deathwing are awesome! Split fire with twinlinked on the drop. take a libby and roll for gates to have some real fun. I enjoy my Dwings

One of the Deathwing's core tactics is deep-striking and causing havoc right in the thick of it - while 50% reserves now limits this, Vengeful Strike more than makes up for it. This is what you want to be doing with a typical Deathwing squad, cause as much damage as you can on the drop - and you still have decent punch in assault if you get charged on the next turn.

Knights, on the other hand, are a pain to deep-strike in with. They can't fire at all, and they lose a lot of their combat-focussed impetus if you don't get the charge. So ideally you want them in a Land Raider instead. Once in combat though, very little can stand against them, and there are certain targets (such as Monstrous Creatures) they're designed to beat down that would give normal Deathwing trouble.

You can of course combine the two tactics, with the Knights and the Raider counting as 2 of your non-reserve units, which helps things.

Treat knights like you would Gazghkull, they are unparalleled gods of war...but for one turn only, and then they downgrade into Hammernators with Power Mauls instead of THs. So you have to make that one assault count.

 Kain wrote:
Treat knights like you would Gazghkull, they are unparalleled gods of war...but for one turn only, and then they downgrade into Hammernators with Power Mauls instead of THs. So you have to make that one assault count.

pretty much. After that one round they are +2 strength marines with precision strikes. They will have trouble going through grey hunters.

That one round when they can ID nob bikers, swing before anyone with a powerfist

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Treat knights like you would Gazghkull, they are unparalleled gods of war...but for one turn only, and then they downgrade into Hammernators with Power Mauls instead of THs. So you have to make that one assault count.

pretty much. After that one round they are +2 strength marines with precision strikes. They will have trouble going through grey hunters.

That one round when they can ID nob bikers, swing before anyone with a powerfist

Unless the enemy is of course, CSMs. A lot of the DA's special rules are extremely mean to CSMs.

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Treat knights like you would Gazghkull, they are unparalleled gods of war...but for one turn only, and then they downgrade into Hammernators with Power Mauls instead of THs. So you have to make that one assault count.

pretty much. After that one round they are +2 strength marines with precision strikes. They will have trouble going through grey hunters.

That one round when they can ID nob bikers, swing before anyone with a powerfist

Unless the enemy is of course, CSMs. A lot of the DA's special rules are extremely mean to CSMs.

well CSM get a lot of nasty stuff against all SM, it kind of balances out.

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Treat knights like you would Gazghkull, they are unparalleled gods of war...but for one turn only, and then they downgrade into Hammernators with Power Mauls instead of THs. So you have to make that one assault count.

pretty much. After that one round they are +2 strength marines with precision strikes. They will have trouble going through grey hunters.

That one round when they can ID nob bikers, swing before anyone with a powerfist

Unless the enemy is of course, CSMs. A lot of the DA's special rules are extremely mean to CSMs.

well CSM get a lot of nasty stuff against all SM, it kind of balances out.

Forgive me but how many nasty things do they have against SM? The only things I can think of are Vet of the Long War (HATRED!) which, if memory serves me, is only good in cc and a trait that you roll on the warlord table (a 1) that gives preferred enemy against all Space Marines to any Chaos Space Marine unit within 12" of the warlord. Bar Abbaddon, who costs a land raider and then some, one of these is a random roll and one of these is something extra you have to pay for which makes them just as expensive as Dark Angels in terms of the troop choice. Sorry for being so rude and insolent. Just curious.

Basic DW can score, mix special weapons w/Hammernators, and have a consistant damage output (after the TL alpha strike). From my gameplay experience DO NOT DS KNIGHTS!
They are almost useless on the turn they come in, and the enemy is almost guaranteed to have enough shooting to make you roll enough 1's or just move out of the range, they are too expensive to just risk losing like that. A venerable land raider however (4+ invul advised from a techmarine on a bike flat against the back) makes them a lot better, more maneuverable, gives them assault grenades so they keep I4, more likely to get the charge and you can use you DWA units to take out the heavy anti-tank early in the game, meaning this unit can be an effective deathstar, an interrogator chappy or libby w/prescience will also boost the effectiveness considerably

I was thinking about going with something like
3 Dark Vengeance Terminator Squads + missile launchers
2 Knight Squads (w/ Land Raiders)
2 Scout Sniper Squads
1 librarian

some speeders or something else. Idea being the 3 DVT's deep strike, the 2 knight squads hop in a Land Raider. Scout Snipers camp on objectives or act as a general nuisance

The question really is, are the Knight Squads better than Terminators w/TH/SS?.

On the first turn they charge, nothing can outdo the sheer amount of devastation a full knight squad can do. That many S10 AP2 attacks can turn a Titan inside out. After that, unless they're fighting CSMs they go down to S6 AP4, but if their targets are CSMs they get to keep AP2.

Chaos just doesn't get a break.

It honestly depends on what you are fighting. Also whether you play competitive, fluffy/competitive (with a lean to one or another, or fluffy. Also depends on who you are playing with and what your local environment is. Do the people around you play tons of Chaos Space Marines? Or do they play IG? Do they deploy a lot of plasma?

It also depends on what you want to take for the rest of your army. If you want to go for a more shooty style you might want the termie comand squad with a librarian and banner of dev and castle Bolter gun marines around them. If you go with the list you have now, You will have two survivable land raiders, knights with a 3++ invuln, and scouts that start on the battlefield. I doubt they will get tabled. I can see one big problem with this list. There isn't much anti-air from what I can see. You have missile launchers, bolter guns, and then land raiders. Bar that I cannot think of many of these weapons being able to take down the AV12 flying vehicles.

competitive/fluffy with a lean to competitive.

Primary opponent will be my competitive Ork List, which brings to the table 2-3 dakka jets and 2-3 battle wagons depending on if I feel like having a more fun list or a more competitive list.

Other opponents will be a heavy demon flier list and a heavy terminator space wolves list and a heavy MC tyranid list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to stick to mostly terminators, snipers and land speeders + anything that helps in the anti-air category that fits that general aesthetic of hardcore shock troop + light sneaky infantry + mop up hover craft. I think that's a neat aesthetic, and want to be semi-competitive with it.

Knights are consistently underestimated on the internetz; and against your competition would be especially good. They eat MC's for breakfast. In addition, LRC's with a standard of devastation make Orks cry. Orks already have trouble with AV14 and the ungodly amount of bolter shots you turn out will likely end the game by turn 3. The scout snipers are a nice touch. I do the same thing for objective camping purposes but they'll be especially effective in your MC-heavy meta.

I've played DAs with Termies A LOT! Here are my conclusions:

In a Belial army: stick with DW termies, who will score and can mix and match shooty and assaulty

In a non-Belial army: DW Knights make an awesome Deathstar, I combine them with either/or a TDA Libby or Interrogator-Chaplain (or both to keep those sweat re-rolls). THEY MUST BE IN A LAND RAIDER TO WORK PROPERLY! Deep-striking them is a waste.

Cheers.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Treat knights like you would Gazghkull, they are unparalleled gods of war...but for one turn only, and then they downgrade into Hammernators with Power Mauls instead of THs. So you have to make that one assault count.

pretty much. After that one round they are +2 strength marines with precision strikes. They will have trouble going through grey hunters.

That one round when they can ID nob bikers, swing before anyone with a powerfist

Unless the enemy is of course, CSMs. A lot of the DA's special rules are extremely mean to CSMs.

well CSM get a lot of nasty stuff against all SM, it kind of balances out.

Forgive me but how many nasty things do they have against SM? The only things I can think of are Vet of the Long War (HATRED!) which, if memory serves me, is only good in cc and a trait that you roll on the warlord table (a 1) that gives preferred enemy against all Space Marines to any Chaos Space Marine unit within 12" of the warlord. Bar Abbaddon, who costs a land raider and then some, one of these is a random roll and one of these is something extra you have to pay for which makes them just as expensive as Dark Angels in terms of the troop choice. Sorry for being so rude and insolent. Just curious.

Vets of the long war is an upgrade, and preferred enemy applies to ranged attacks too.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Treat knights like you would Gazghkull, they are unparalleled gods of war...but for one turn only, and then they downgrade into Hammernators with Power Mauls instead of THs. So you have to make that one assault count.

pretty much. After that one round they are +2 strength marines with precision strikes. They will have trouble going through grey hunters.

That one round when they can ID nob bikers, swing before anyone with a powerfist

Unless the enemy is of course, CSMs. A lot of the DA's special rules are extremely mean to CSMs.

well CSM get a lot of nasty stuff against all SM, it kind of balances out.

Forgive me but how many nasty things do they have against SM? The only things I can think of are Vet of the Long War (HATRED!) which, if memory serves me, is only good in cc and a trait that you roll on the warlord table (a 1) that gives preferred enemy against all Space Marines to any Chaos Space Marine unit within 12" of the warlord. Bar Abbaddon, who costs a land raider and then some, one of these is a random roll and one of these is something extra you have to pay for which makes them just as expensive as Dark Angels in terms of the troop choice. Sorry for being so rude and insolent. Just curious.

they have this model called a heldrake, which kills space marines like no other. It isnt very good against orks, guard, eldar, but man does it do a number on expensive T4 models with 3+ saves. Hatred in CC is pretty good. PE 16% of the time is pretty good. But the heldrake is what makes marines players cringe.

Chaos also have the plague marines. Those bastards are hard to kill with even the most dakka you can bring. Never won a game against them.


Can anyone see if the DWKs are good against the wraithknight?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Chaos also have the plague marines. Those bastards are hard to kill with even the most dakka you can bring. Never won a game against them.


Can anyone see if the DWKs are good against the wraithknight?

for one round of combat they will be good, hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+. The rest of the time they will need 6s to wound and the thing will get its armor save

well, for that one round, would it be dead?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
well, for that one round, would it be dead?

how many DWK are there? Assuming 5 DWK, not charging, then the wraith knight is going to be barely alive while taking down 1 DWK. If the WK has the shield, then the DWK will only take half his wounds. If they charge, and he has the shield they still dont kill him, but again he is almost dead.

If there are 10 DWK, they will kill him easily.

The problem is, how do you get DWK into combat with a jump MC that eats Landraiders for breakfast?

I love DWK, I've never had much luck with shooting loadouts on my terms, even with vengeful strike, I find that after that initial drop they lose so much potential, just become weaker.

I play with knights usually, either in a raider (which always works well) or if they're my only terminator squad (which they often are, 5man) I drop them in in turn 2, wherever I want to deny a space of the board to the opponent. This gives me 2 strengths:

1 - no one wants to go near them, they have plenty attacks in initiative order and even big beasties are scared because of their once per battle god-mode.
2 - it's usually always by then within 6" of some bikers, in turn 1 there's never been as much point for me but by turn 2 I have more information on what I need to take down, and posing the threat of termies, makes the enemy want to shoot termies.

& every shot fired my termies, is a shot not fired at my black knights, or whatever else I want to survive.

If I was running a normal squad of DW, I would want to go with loads of TH/SS & a CML for a similar effect, but I prefer the versatility of the DWK vs most opponents, I don't miss the AP 2 much, as most things with good armour are so scared of the DWK god-mode they wont dare a turn against it.
Essentially I use them to cause fear, not with a perfidious relic, but with the threat of god-mode mincing something. Best part is smaller rabble wont tie them up so much because of their WS5 and striking at I4