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This is an image from a game called Shogun 2: total war (but you already knew that.) The unit that's doing the firing is called "Blunderbuss cavalry". The tactic with these guys was to lure wayward chargers, set up wait. as they charged, you'd unleash a volley into them (you usually only got one off) and you'd usually break Ashigaru (light infantry like peasants) or at the very least severely weaken samurai. Because the unit was comprised of mounted men (samurai) you could always count on them to hold their own in combat against one or two units they'd severely weakened.The tactic failed against cavalry because cavalry usually caught up to you before you could catch them, but if you were successful you could count on breaking that cavalry unit. this is how overwatch should look to me

In 40k, we have a nice mechanic in our overwatch special rules. Tau especially make judicious use of this rule. Other codexes (notably space marines) suffer from particularly poor overwatch because they simply haven't got the weight of shots to land hits. (dropping by 3 points of ballistic skill really hurt.)

I'm just looking to get a consensus of opinions here.

If it was like that nowone would ever want to charge RIP Asault,

As to the poll :

I've failed some charges because the closest models died to overwatch, can make a big difference.

Like you pointed out it really does depend on the army you're against. Tau and I also find Orks to be the major pains, mainly due to weight of shots. I can charge 10 Bloodletters into a 30 man Shoota Boy squad and more often than not most if not sometimes all will die. But that's just my army (all Khorne so no shooting to soften them up).

I find Overwatch in 'normal' circumstances to be balanced. But not something that should be relied upon to change the course of a game. It should only make combat units be wary of charging large units with heavy firepower.

Orks, Nids, Tau and Telisa Necrons make good of over watch, Marines etc will not due to it is more about weight in numbers

Amoras wrote:
If it was like that nowone would ever want to charge RIP Asault,

As to the poll :

I've failed some charges because the closest models died to overwatch, can make a big difference.

that is what the rifle was to the sword, an end to the assault.

If units with BS4 or higher just got BS2 on overwatch... that'd be more reasonable methinks.

My CCS in a Chimera was charged by 5 DWK and a Libby... afrer overwatch there was a single Libby and he couldnt even break my chimera. I like overwatch

I voted Occasionally.

Playing Necrons I already had some game-saving moments because of my Tesla Immortal's Overwatch. When each 6 means 2 extra automatic hits, I've managed to avoid several charges thanks to the death of the closest models.

When I play chaos, I run a squad with 15 noise marines, lead by lucius.

Overwatch + Rapid fire = 28ish Bolter shots and two D3 Doom Siren hits.

If marines charge, they always seem to lose 5+ marines on the way in.
Its almost as good as hit and run - in order to get a successful charge off, you need to be really close.

So yeah, its affected my games a fair amount

Overwatch levels the playing field a bit, when charging bog-standard units. Everyone hits on a 6, With most short-range weapons getting a look-in, the charger needs to be sure about the assault before committing.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Amoras wrote:
If it was like that nowone would ever want to charge RIP Asault,

As to the poll :

I've failed some charges because the closest models died to overwatch, can make a big difference.

that is what the rifle was to the sword, an end to the assault.

If units with BS4 or higher just got BS2 on overwatch... that'd be more reasonable methinks.

Trust me on this one

My salvo 2/4 bolters do NOT need bs 5 on overwatch

Having played historical games for almost 30 years. I say it's about time 40k got something akin to defensive fire. And although I play several assault based armies (daemons and DoA BA) as well as several shooty armies. I wish there was an option to either counter charge OR issue defensive fire. Counter charge either gives defender bonus attacks or negates the attackers bonus attacks for charging. Issue defensive fire at full BS but sacrifice your H2H attacks in the first round of CC. Reducing Overwatch to BS 1 doesn't hit every army the same way. Pretty sure Ork players chuckle to themselves every time they think of it. One of the few things about 6ed that I wish GW had gone all in on rather than half-arsed.

Before my Tau got their update, overwatch by itself hasn't had as much effect, but overwatch with random charge distance had been killer in a few games. Now that my Tau have the supporting fire rule, overwatch is really starting to mean something.

With BS1 and all, hardly a problem, still, I wouldn't just declare a charge willy nilly with my fragile DE, because getting shot at when you're this fragile just isn't fun, it does mean that my assault range has dropped compared with that of 5th ed*, but I'd rather play it safe than to lose my assault unit(s).

*Since I'd have to move in to 6" or so to feel safe before I'll declare charge, so as to not give away free shots even though fleet gives me a good chance to cover 8" on average. Risk of giving away free shots and a failed charge outweigh slim chance of getting a long range charge(and really, not that long range if we bring 5th ed, but I won't start on this again! ).

Against Tau, IG, shooty-orks, flamer-heavy list, etc I just cry myself in the corner.

My Ratlings to this day are kings with overwatch. Wounding and even killing alot of MC's.
And even got in a lucky lascannon shot that ended Lucious (thou that was a one in a million shot).
So I would say that yes overwatch have had a big effect on my games.

I think it's been a positive change.

It has changed the game. I remember a low point match where all I had left was 10 plague bearers led by a herald and 10 bloodletters led by a herald. It.... it didn't end well. He had a psyker with them that gave divination that let them overwatch at full bs. I died before either could get into cc....

I find the concept interesting but implimentation horrid. It heavily favours armies with a high number of shots or characters with a low bs skill anyways. It used to be rather situational but fighting tau I've grown to despise overwatch especially since even if I make it into cc, I'm usually open for the entire army to shoot the very next turn. Interesting idea, terrible implimentation (not to mention it nerfs CC again)

I like Overwatch, makes assaulting a little more risk/reward, but I think with the concurrent nerf to transports, it was too much.

When playing 5th, the only things I didn't like about assault was doing it out of reserves and that massive units of shooting units just stand there, jaws agape, while deathstars charge into them. Assaulting from transports never was a problem, especially now that you'd get some shots in no matter what.

Assaulting should be risky but rewarding in a setting where powerful ranged weapons are the norm, and defensive fire is a normal, commonplace tactic in the real world today and historically. However, so was charging right out of a protective transport into somebody else (ala seige towers, landing boats and the like).

I enjoy it. The wraithguard with the AP2 flamers now scare the hell out of me!

Personally I wait for the day where assault and shooting is equal and balanced. Not one being better than the other. I've heard assault used to be far better and that is just as bad as currently.

In a world where the heroes tend to be built to be close combat masters, chaos daemons, orks, nids (granted nids in particular have exceptionally good shooting capabilities) and other armies specialize in cc. Shooting shouldn't be better. This is high fantasy (plus whenever arguments come over assault should be more risky. Well why not have gun lines be a risk rather than sit there and shoot them with no movement) also why not just exterminate the planet?

I still think it was an interesting introduction but like allies and several other additions, it failed in execution.

I had Obyron die to overwatch plasma once, but that is about the biggest example I can think of where overwatch really made any difference.

I've had one game in 6th edition where Overwatch has actually done anything. One. Even then, it didn't change the outcome of the assault. Even when Orks charge my 50-man blob squads of Guardsmen, I kill one, maybe two at a time. It might as well not be in the game as far as I'm concerned, since it's done so little for me. It's deterred me from charging Flamers of Tzeentch, and that's it.

I'm not enjoying all the charges I've missed thanks to overwatch killing the only 1-3 models in range, while overwatch rarely does a lot of damage, it's its combination with random charge length that can really kill an an assault.

Tycho wrote:
Before my Tau got their update, overwatch by itself hasn't had as much effect, but overwatch with random charge distance had been killer in a few games. Now that my Tau have the supporting fire rule, overwatch is really starting to mean something.

This, pretty much. As a dedicated assault player, I don't mind the concept of Overwatch, but I do mind the interaction with random charge distances where the guy closest gets capped and your entire unit wanders about aimlessly. I've lost more than one game because I rolled and one model got killed by Overwatch.

The trouble with 6E overwatch is that it's not really a tactical factor in the game. Aside from the odd special rule, you can't really plan to avoid it, it's just something that happens and might hurt you a bit, but probably not much. If you want to charge someone you're pretty much going to be overwatched, and most of the time all your opponent does is pray for those 6's.
There's no real trade-off where a player has to sacrifice something to use a defensive fire mechanic, or where their opponent can choose to harass parts of their line that aren't setup defensively.

I don't understand why GW didn't go for the old system where you sacrifice shooting for your turn in order to shoot normally in your opponent's turn at units that move into line of sight. This creates avenues of fire and allows a player to force their opponent into certain positions or risk serious losses. I think this make for a more engaging game than 'I hope I roll a 6 for this meltagun'.

the enemy already got a chance to shoot.. giving them another just favors hordes too much... doesnt make sense that an ork overwatches as effectively as some BS 5 chaptermaster.

should be a rule like you cant have moved to do overwatch, or something.

It's been a pretty big boon for me, and I play Salamanders. That being said, the twin-linked meltas and auto-hits from the flamers really offset that BS1 a great deal.

I love overwatch, then again I play Tau.

The last game I was in saw me completely liquify a death company and another regular blood angel squad that tried to charge into the building containing my objective. Of course that was probably a best case scenario since every unit in my army was pretty much within supporting fire range.

i play tau as my main army and i don't like the concept of 6ed charging the following list added together is the problem not the over watch:
your charge is random
outflank(basically where you sneak up on some one to attack them in combat) you cant charge after now
disordered charges weakens your attack
exiting a vehicle even if stationary you cant charge
most assault units wear t-shirts
enemy over watching
enemy gaining benefits during over watch (aka supporting fire)
charging through terrain

it wouldn't be so bad if it was just some of them but all of them together really takes fun out of assulty armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:
plus doing it right using my tau once reduced 9" of charging one reason was the one objective and the other is dark-strider allowing a d6" consolidation move after over watching

It's not generally that much of a biggie, unless the unit you're charging has massed flamers, masses of guns or high ROF guns.

I lose a couple of boyz on the way in, or take a wound on a MANZ.. Fair enough.

On the flipside my orks are actually liking Overwatch when they get charged. Orks are only good on the charge in CC, and being able to empty 30 shootas into the oncoming unit at only -1 BS helps that enormously.

I say occasionally. Sometimes I end up dumping a crap-ton of shots, and maybe get a kill, then the assault goes as normal with me feeling slightly better about myself (well, I had a chance). Other times it's been "yes, shadowsun did just kill your carnifex on overwatch, looks like I get another victory point!"

Of course Darkstrider is just silly fun. Devilfish outflanks. Deploy drones behind his squad so they aren't a valid target. Overwatch, run behind the drones, enemy can't get into assault without getting close to the drones, ???, profit.