Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Better: instead of melee attacks, the first round of melee combat you could fire your ranged weapons at half your balistics skill rounded down. I think its silly you get to both fire and punch in the time a charging unit gets to punch. Remember, overwatch is in addition to them firing the previous turn. Essentially you are shooting even faster when they get closer to you somehow.

Before 6th Ed we adopted a different version of it more akin to 2nd Ed. With a Leadership test you have to 'set up' defensive fire in the previous turn if you want to shoot during the opponent's movement phase. But you get to fire at full BS.

We didn't see any reason to reward units getting surprised by an assault so we never adopted 6th Ed's mechanic. For those who think it turns the game into a static shooting-fest, you are seriously mistaken.

I LOVE overwatch. Ive been a long time Tau player so it works out, Ive always thought there should be some sort of defensive fire type of thing. Overwatch isnt the best but when my stealths get charged and bet bs2 overwatch its even more useful

 DakkaHammer wrote:
I say occasionally. Sometimes I end up dumping a crap-ton of shots, and maybe get a kill, then the assault goes as normal with me feeling slightly better about myself (well, I had a chance). Other times it's been "yes, shadowsun did just kill your carnifex on overwatch, looks like I get another victory point!"

Of course Darkstrider is just silly fun. Devilfish outflanks. Deploy drones behind his squad so they aren't a valid target. Overwatch, run behind the drones, enemy can't get into assault without getting close to the drones, ???, profit.

Couldn't they just declare the drones to be a secondary target for their assault?

Or am I missing something?

For some it's alright, for armies like Dark Eldar, it kills them. A unit of T3 6+ is not going to survive an overwatch, or will with large chunks missing. While it may not mean much for a mob of 30 boyz, or a squad of beserkers, without numbers and armour, it can really put ya off close combat

Von Chogg

 Pouncey wrote:

Couldn't they just declare the drones to be a secondary target for their assault?

Or am I missing something?

I don't have the rulebook with me so I can't quote. But basically, if you position your unit in such a way that the assaulting unit wouldn't be able to reach the drones (because they can't get far enough to run around the primary target to reach the drones), then they aren't allowed to declare them as the target for an assault.

It's sometimes difficult to set it up right if the FW team is small, but when it works

50/50 at times i love it, others not much Mostly because of tau,...

 DakkaHammer wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Couldn't they just declare the drones to be a secondary target for their assault?

Or am I missing something?

I don't have the rulebook with me so I can't quote. But basically, if you position your unit in such a way that the assaulting unit wouldn't be able to reach the drones (because they can't get far enough to run around the primary target to reach the drones), then they aren't allowed to declare them as the target for an assault.

It's sometimes difficult to set it up right if the FW team is small, but when it works

Neat.

What if they assault the drones?

Then do they get shot up next turn?

Edit: Oh, I see. Why do they need to assault the drones?

Edit again: Ohhh, NOW I get it.

Darkstrider has some sort of ability that lets him move after overwatching?

Its almost become a DakkaDakka joke to post a question for a poll in a title and then ask a different question in the poll... what is wrong with you people?!

That being said, only rarely has overwatch affected one of my games (I play mostly CSM in 6th edition and my forces are typically very good shooters, which stay out of CC, or pure CC, which can't overwatch). However with 2 Tau players and 2 Ork players in our club I've seen overwatch change games on other tables.

 Pouncey wrote:

Darkstrider has some sort of ability that lets him move after overwatching?

Yep, D6". Which is usually enough to get behind the drones, especially if the enemies are assaulting through cover.

I'm not sure it'd work in 6th. According to page 21 of the BRB, charging models CAN be moved within 1" of enemy models during the charge phase. They just can't move into base contact with enemy units they're not charging. But, there's no rule about models having to stay a set distance away from friendly units. So you'd basically need to space your drones out so they're EXACTLY 25mm apart. Any less and your guys can't get through. Any more and the charging models can get through.

Edit: Unless you're facing stuff with larger than 25mm bases. Like Terminators or Wraithguard or something like that.

 Pouncey wrote:
I'm not sure it'd work in 6th. According to page 21 of the BRB, charging models CAN be moved within 1" of enemy models during the charge phase. They just can't move into base contact with enemy units they're not charging. But, there's no rule about models having to stay a set distance away from friendly units. So you'd basically need to space your drones out so they're EXACTLY 25mm apart. Any less and your guys can't get through. Any more and the charging models can get through.

I thought it was just talking about models involved in the combat there, and you still have to stay an inch away form models not involved. But again, I don't have my rulebook with me.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I'm not sure it'd work in 6th. According to page 21 of the BRB, charging models CAN be moved within 1" of enemy models during the charge phase. They just can't move into base contact with enemy units they're not charging. But, there's no rule about models having to stay a set distance away from friendly units. So you'd basically need to space your drones out so they're EXACTLY 25mm apart. Any less and your guys can't get through. Any more and the charging models can get through.

I thought it was just talking about models involved in the combat there, and you still have to stay an inch away form models not involved. But again, I don't have my rulebook with me.

It doesn't specify models involved in the combat. Just enemy models in general.

It's probably rules lawyering though...

Really? I'll have to check up on that. It's still possible though, but a bit harder.

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Really? I'll have to check up on that. It's still possible though, but a bit harder.

It gets MILES easier if you're facing something on a base bigger than yours. Since your opponent still has to fit those Terminators or whatever between the gaps.

Well, it turns out I was still thinking about 5th edition with that base blocking thing. So I guess I'll just have to be a lot more careful leaving the exact sized gaps when using this.

as a vanilla marines player, I like the idea of overwatch but I think the current mechanic is a bit flawed. why should orks, with their notoriously lousy aim, overwatch just as effectively as highly trained space marine veterans? that's not even taking into account average unit sizes, which makes overwatch favor horde armies (or at least armies with large units).

I'd like to see a tweak to overwatch where it cut your BS in half (rounding up, probably) rather than just made everyone BS1. if you're a highly skilled marksman, you're still going to be a highly skilled marksman even if you have to shoot in a hurry. as good a shot as you'd be with more time? of course not. but still a better shot than someone with minimal training would be in the seem situation. so, a BS4 space marine would be twice as effective (hitting on 5s and 6s) as a BS2 ork (hitting on just 6s) when hosing down a charging enemy, say... and a HQ model with BS5/6 would be even more effective. I'll be honest, I haven't thought this out in great detail. it seems like a change like this would balance out overall, though, given that high BS units tend to have fewer models (e.g., 10 space marines vs. 30 orks).

as far as overwatch changing games, most of the time it hasn't done anything for me. my squads are simply too small (5-10 models per unit) for weight of dice to come into play. it doesn't help that I generally play other MEQ armies, where bolters and flamers just aren't that scary. that said, sometimes the dice gods laugh at you... like losing two terminators to overwatch fire from 5 raptors with bolt pistols

 varl wrote:
as a vanilla marines player, I like the idea of overwatch but I think the current mechanic is a bit flawed. why should orks, with their notoriously lousy aim, overwatch just as effectively as highly trained space marine veterans? that's not even taking into account average unit sizes, which makes overwatch favor horde armies (or at least armies with large units).

I'd like to see a tweak to overwatch where it cut your BS in half (rounding up, probably) rather than just made everyone BS1. if you're a highly skilled marksman, you're still going to be a highly skilled marksman even if you have to shoot in a hurry. as good a shot as you'd be with more time? of course not. but still a better shot than someone with minimal training would be in the seem situation. so, a BS4 space marine would be twice as effective (hitting on 5s and 6s) as a BS2 ork (hitting on just 6s) when hosing down a charging enemy, say... and a HQ model with BS5/6 would be even more effective. I'll be honest, I haven't thought this out in great detail. it seems like a change like this would balance out overall, though, given that high BS units tend to have fewer models (e.g., 10 space marines vs. 30 orks).

as far as overwatch changing games, most of the time it hasn't done anything for me. my squads are simply too small (5-10 models per unit) for weight of dice to come into play. it doesn't help that I generally play other MEQ armies, where bolters and flamers just aren't that scary. that said, sometimes the dice gods laugh at you... like losing two terminators to overwatch fire from 5 raptors with bolt pistols

I lost Celestine to an Overwatch from a mob of Slugga Boyz.

She had one wound left, the Orks dealt just one wound if I remember right, and as I picked up that dice to roll my save, I got a feeling, and like I always do when I get that feeling, I said, "Watch me fail this roll." And then, a 1.

First time I got a feeling like that was when my Rhino took 4 glancing/penetrating hits in 3rd edition. I picked up the dice, and got an inexplicable feeling that my Rhino would be fine. And it was. It took some damage, but it survived.

My dad, when he was a bit younger than I am now, used to be able to call his dice rolls sometimes. When he did, he was never wrong.

Edit: I don't mean he called his dice rolls like, "I'm gonna fail/pass this roll." Specific numbers of the dice results

Id say it occasionally has been a factor, but you never really lose more than one or 2 models usually, unless there is templates or tau.

It turned a wave of 90 guardsmen into a horrific wall of pain. And taught a hard lesson to a space wolfs player. A large squad of SW termies, like 12 or so, (longfangs or whatever) from our team tried to assault a blob of guardsmen and perhaps the SW player didn't realize the IG squad was about 3 square feet in size, but when he assaulted he lost everything in overwatch. Granted this was apocalypse so it's a bit of a bad example, but it was still a powerful lesson to learn... do not assault guard.

 bibblles wrote:
It turned a wave of 90 guardsmen into a horrific wall of pain. And taught a hard lesson to a space wolfs player. A large squad of SW termies, like 12 or so, (longfangs or whatever) from our team tried to assault a blob of guardsmen and perhaps the SW player didn't realize the IG squad was about 3 square feet in size, but when he assaulted he lost everything in overwatch. Granted this was apocalypse so it's a bit of a bad example, but it was still a powerful lesson to learn... do not assault guard.

Damn...

In the game I'm gonna play, my opponent is Guard and I have an Assault Squad with a Jump Packed Captain. Of course, my opponent's combined Infantry Squads will be at most 20 men and women strong, since she went kinda minimalist on Troops with a total of 4 Infantry Squads, 2 Command Squads, and 1 Heavy Weapons Squad, but I plan on softening them up with... Um, actually, it just occurred to me that the only anti-infantry stuff I have in my list that's not a melee unit are my Battle Sisters Squad, a Tactical Squad, and a 5-man Scout Sniper Squad.

1,000 points using Allies can be really annoying from an optimization standpoint. The extra HQ and Troops really makes it tough to get the points the killier stuff. I dunno why I can't stop doing it. I think what I need to do is make a Kurisu model which can be used as a Confessor. And it just occurred to me that I have such a model already built, which I'd originally intended on using as a Primaris Psyker but never got around to really using.

It occurs to me that I should mention that typing things out is how I think through problems. My internal monologue is too chaotic and doesn't really think too well, just a jumbled mess of half-formed sentences and ideas that internally make sense, but when actually described in more detail don't really pan out.

I've had overwatch do something on more than one occasion, you've just got to be set up for it. A couple of dudes shooting bolters = nothing. A vet squad in a chimera firing 3 meltaguns, 2 plasma pistols, and a lascannon = something.

The two biggest uses of overwatch I've seen in actual games are the free damage I get to do to people getting into close combat with my chimeras, and with people getting killed out of charge range. That seems to have as much to do with random charge ranges than with overwatch, though.

I've also seen overwatch do terrible damage with new tau as well.

In any case, though, I think that the rarity of overwatch doing anything has to do much more with the rarity of serious close combat than anything else. If close combat were more viable, you'd see more people bringing assaulters, and thus more damage done with overwatch.

As for the rule itself, I could take it or leave it. I don't see it as being particularly necessary to the rules as-is, though I do like the fact that it at least ostensibly gives you a reason to take flamers.

My main complaint with it is that it adds a fair bit of time to assault phases.

I really like overwatch. With tau and good placement of markerlight you can negate the bs1 and boost up quite a few squads to b.s. 2 or even 3 by using the ripple effect (using markerlights to boost other markerlights until you have enough tokens to allow your other squads to overwatch at a decent bs). This can take alot of markerlights but really can change the result of a crucial charge. All in all I think it's been a huge boon for Tau, far in excess of any other army and I won't be surprised if other shoot armies like guard get something akin in the future.

I like Overwatch

However, a few adjustments - like Wyches getting their dodge against it would be good.

Enjoyed a moment in a recent game - two remianing Grey Knights charged my Sisters squad - 2 hits - 2 wounds - 2 kills

I voted occasionally. I don't find it turns the tide of a game very often. I have had a few games where overwatch has killed the closets model(s), resulting in a failed charge. And of those games, sometimes the failure of that charge does end up being a major factor in the outcome of the game.

But the times it has been game changing is no more or less than any other luck based event being game changing. I cannot count on two hands the number of games I've lost because I have failed 5 terminator saves with 10 or less saves to make.

I find the biggest difference that overwatch has made, at least in my local meta, is the tactic of hiding CC units in CC. Before it used to be a common tactic to just charge something to keep your CC unit in CC so it could not be shot in your opponents turn, banking on winning CC on their turn. Usually this led to not shooting at the unit first because you wanted to reduce the chance of wiping them on the turn you charged. Now people are more encouraged to soften up their CC targets to reduce the effect of overwatch, and this tend to cause assault to be used more as a means of finishing something off rather than using it as a shield.

I also find that it discourages just throwing something at a CC unit to tar pit them, as a small sacrificial unit is more likely to lose a model or two to overwatch and end up losing combat on the turn they assault, not really accomplishing anything.

Yes their are other factors that have really changed the way CC works, but overall I still see a lot of successful CC being performed.

I do think that overwatch should be a negative modifier to BS, rather than flat BS 1. Something like -2 BS to a minimum of 1 could work. I just don't see the reason an ork boy can fire overwatch just as well as something like a BS 5 captain, or even better.

Yesterday i watched the crew from grot artillery get a kill in overwatch to stop the deamonettes from charging, and on the other side of the board on the same turn, a squad of 10 overwatched a demon prince to death. Absolutely silly gak but i died laughing while watching. The demon player wasnt too happy, but still won.

I have yet to really play since I'm in another country right now, but I do like the new "Overwatch" feature. Simply because no army is just going to stand there and let someone get close to them. I will be playing Tau and Space Marines, so I'm sure I'll experience both sides of that feature.

If Overwatch was just a flat -2 to BS, I'd like it a bit more. It would make more sense than undisciplined Ork Boyz reacting to a charge as well as Space Marine veterans with hundreds of years of experience.

Its an over complicated and heavy handed way to try to relieve the boredom of the IGO-UGO game turn.
A more interactive game turn mechanic would not need it.