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In the competitive scene, I expect a moderate shakeup to be coming with the introduction of both Tau and Elder. I expect to see a lot of Tau as a result of how strong they are, and Elder as so many people love that army. With Eldar we will see transports given the number of wave serpents out there from 4th/5th ed players, but for Tau im expecting to see a lot of foot. With that said, as Im creating a new Nurgle CSM with Guard army, are heavy bolter havoks even more viable then the popular autocannon equipped havoks a lot of folks like to run? I just think HBs will be more useful then ever as someone looking to add more horde killing power... Thought?

HB sure mess up tau and eldar infantry, but you gotta remember-thats ALL they do.

And messing up tau and eldar infantry is...pretty easy...

...and Necrons

Actually I have been finding Heavy Bolters to very useful in both the Anti-Infantry and Anti-Transport mode vs. most armies. I run normally 3 Land Speeders with Heavy Bolters/Typhoons load out and I have a Long Fang Pack with 1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon, 2x Missile Launchers.
I have used this combo to clean the battlefield of Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Ork Trucks
Infantry wise there is not a lot that I can’t take out quickly with concentrated fire and with the Split-Fire deal with those pesky little Spore Mines.

I ran a big squiggoth a few weeks back. It laughed at everything the other guy could throw at it. Then as an off thought he threw some H bolter shells at it and it died a painful death

Heavy bolter sponsons are looking like an attractive option on Vendettas when they don't have high Av or save targets to shoot at. Same with the bolter boat punisher LRBT.

Not really viable, especially if you can take autocannons instead. HBs are better against infantry, but at the cost of only being useful against infantry. A single-role specialist needs to be amazing at that role, and HBs aren't.

Definitely stronger. Not sure about "strong" though.

Put it this way - I won't go out of my way to take them, but they do make them attractive options for units that can take them en-masse on sponsons, like Bolter Bus Russes (Exterminators or Punishers with Heavy Bolter sponsons and hulls) or Dakka Predators. I've been consistently impressed by my Bolter Bus Exterminator.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Definitely stronger. Not sure about "strong" though.

Put it this way - I won't go out of my way to take them, but they do make them attractive options for units that can take them en-masse on sponsons, like Bolter Bus Russes (Exterminators or Punishers with Heavy Bolter sponsons and hulls) or Dakka Predators. I've been consistently impressed by my Bolter Bus Exterminator.

I run both of these Russ types and I am horrendously impressed

As xenos armies become more competitive, heavy bolters return to usefulness.

Things are starting to cost as much as Marines that people actually take that are wounded on a 2+ with no armour save against heavy bolters. Marine players whined to the heavens about this when Starcannons did it for 50 points. Heavy Bolters are essentially free.

As long as heavy bolters are the same price as autocannons, it's going to be a questionable choice.

 minigun762 wrote:
As long as heavy bolters are the same price as autocannons, it's going to be a questionable choice.

Truth.
Because trading 1 shot for +2 strength and the ability to blow up vehicles is a pretty good deal. The reason why autocannons have become popular is the ability to strip hull points and even pen AV12, which is your front armor on most transports. The increased effectiveness of wave serpents (and their passengers, looking at you D-scythes) probably mean that we'll see more of them and if anything autocannons are an even better buy now. For C:SM it's not not really as much of a choice so HBs could be viable vs ML but for Guard and Chaos I think that autocannons are still a better choice in theory; obviously your meta may be different.

 minigun762 wrote:
As long as heavy bolters are the same price as autocannons, it's going to be a questionable choice.

Most armies that can take heavy bolters can't take autocannons. (IG and CSM comprise of a minority).

On sponsons et al where there aren't any obviously better options, more people will find the heavy bolter useful (and it tends to be pretty cheap) but on havocs? hahaha no. There is absolutely no reason to take a heavy bolter when you have an autocannon available. The extra shot isn't worth the loss of versatility. You're crippling your army's medium AT capabilities to be slightly better at killing something your boltguns already make holes in pretty reliably.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
As long as heavy bolters are the same price as autocannons, it's going to be a questionable choice.

Truth.
Because trading 1 shot for +2 strength and the ability to blow up vehicles is a pretty good deal. The reason why autocannons have become popular is the ability to strip hull points and even pen AV12, which is your front armor on most transports. The increased effectiveness of wave serpents (and their passengers, looking at you D-scythes) probably mean that we'll see more of them and if anything autocannons are an even better buy now. For C:SM it's not not really as much of a choice so HBs could be viable vs ML but for Guard and Chaos I think that autocannons are still a better choice in theory; obviously your meta may be different.

Essentially this. Thanks greyknight12 for beating me to the punch.

Also there is the lack of many other armies having said options of replacement, (Looking at you C:SM), in which case it all kinda boils down to a point of what do you need more? Would you like an extra shot while decreasing the strength of the overall weapon's shots? Or would you like to have 2 shots that can help reinforce your AT-fire when they are needed for more dangerous threats? Of course, these situations are only a couple of numerous possibilities that may present themselves to you,(in say a tournament perhaps), but they give you an idea of what I'm trying to say. pick the tool that blends the best with your overall strategy and tactical options.

Nope. Heavy bolters still stay in the box.

Foot tau have virtually no reason whatsoever to not be in cover, what with their 30" guns. Eldar have Sv3+ dudes, and they have once again the best transport in the game. Taking down the transports is what's going to be hard. The guys inside can be handled with small arms.

Furthermore, you're missing the bigger meta shift. Tau players are showing up with riptides while wrathlord got cheaper and eldar have wraithknights. Just because a xenos army is getting more popular doesn't make the heavy bolter better if the things that xenos armies are bringing don't care about heavy bolters.

Really, the question should be is "will seeing more riptides and disruptor-pod hammerheads and firewarriors in cover, or wraithguard, wraithlord, and wraithknights make the heavy bolter more useful?"

The answer is no.

So long as you can basically win games without troops, taking a weapon that's specifically designed to hurt a certain subsection of them isn't a good idea. Unless, of course, you get them for free or virtually free on vehicles that you were already taking anyways.

I like using HB on Razorbacks behind a Aegis Defense Line. During an Apoc game they were surprisingly one of my better units. (Maybe because they had a Baneblade to worry about). But I play against a lot of Nids so it's not bad for me.

HB are stil an afterthought for my BA list. They mainly appear on dakka Baals. BA Razors are either las/plas or heavy flamer, imo.

 Ailaros wrote:
wrathlord got cheaper and eldar have wraithknights.

Wraithlords got more expensive.

And Wraithknights will only be seen if people actually started taking heavy bolters. They're garbage in the current environment where people have lascannons.

Heavy Bolters are, in my opinion the most underrated weapon in the game. For guard they add volume and for chaos marines they add accurate volume. Now I'm biased because I love them so much, but I try to get a minimum of 1 4x HB havoks with 3 extra marines. If possible, I'll make sure I have enough melta on bikes and raptors to take 2 squads of heavy bolters. Especially on Chaos Marines, they put out so much accurate str 5 fire that they put down marines and terminators with contemptuous ease. Over the course of a game a rediculously disproportionate amount of damage is done by them.

About the only place that the HB would come in in my GK list would be on a R-back and the question would be TL HB w/ psybolt vs TL Assault Cannon w/ psybolt...

To my mind S6 non-rending with extra range vs. S7 rending (even with shorter range) is almost certainly going to be worth the (admittedly steep) points cost... but I could be wrong -- for the (much smaller) point cost on Dreads/Ven Dreads it seems like an absolute no-brainer to go with the assault cannon.

Definitely open to other thoughts, though...

(edit) Also, the AC gives me an extra shot -- that combined with the fact that the GK list doesn't have a lot of high S low AP weapons, makes me think that the AC is a much better choice for the list...

However, given the new eldar 'dex (which annihilated me in 1 game vs my GKs -- technically a draw because no objectives, I got first blood he got kill the warlord and tabled me) the notion of adding another model or 2 might make some sense (the other most common opponent I have is DE).

Heavy Bolters are fairly useful these days. The problem with them is that the platform they come on usually has a better choice for your list. Attack Bikes, Long Fangs, Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts... Heavy Bolters are never the first thing you want to take.

That said, i do have a Long Fang back with a 3:2 ratio of Heavy Bolters and Lascannons. The Heavy Bolters can kill 1-2 MEQ on average a round, and against everything other than MEQ/TEQ they're killing 4-5 models before cover saves are taken into account. Since they are cheap fodder to keep the Lascannons pumping and are providing supporting fire for my Grey Hunters, they end up being very useful against non-MEQ and light vehicles.

I'm also a massive fan of Heavy Bolter Sponsons on Vendettas. It's a cheap upgrade, bringing the Flyer to 140 points and you can fire 4 weapons at full BS + others can Snap Fire. AV10 Flyers get to cry, and when I run out of enemy Flyers/Tanks to shoot at it really helps with taking down enemy infantry. Even MEQ, particularly when you are taking a squadron of 2.

cant speak for heavy bolters, but I just WRECKED new tau with my str 5 psybolt shots.

3's to hit and 2's to wound will mince any troops... even if they are getting their armour/aegis save

personally my focus this edition has just been on killing troops, and its worked really well so far.

You know Ive been toying with the idea of taking a full long fang pack with heavy bolters. Add in a rune priest and youve got some ridiculously accurate pain being sent out. A great thing to consider for those evil min maxers who take their minimum points two troop choices is that when you blow away their troops on the first turn it makes it a lot easier to win the game.

 minigun762 wrote:
As long as heavy bolters are the same price as autocannons, it's going to be a questionable choice.

This.
Is it better to have those 2 shots at STR 7, or the 3 shots at STR 5? The heavy bolters have 50% more damage output to Eldar/Tau, but have very limited ability to destroy light armor.

Don't forget the extra 12" range bonus for autocannons.

Autocannons and missiles should be the same price, with heavy bolters the bargain option.

I want to use them but they just suffer in comparison.

@Apostasus, you were tabled, thats a loss, not a draw, dont kid yourself.

I personally love heavy bolters and usually take 2 in my long fangs with3 missiles. The bolters shoot at troops and the missiles shoot at what i need them to. Works surprisingly well for me