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Every list I seem to make lately seem to always fall very short in the AA department. So, What do you think is the best AA in the DA book?

Personally, I use a squad of 4 devs with lascannons and a divination libby nearby.
What do you guys think is their best AA (Not counting allies or FW) ?

Flakk upgrade for devastators not working out? They work well enough for my chaos...

Short of a Contemptor (or allies) DAs are kinda screwed in that department, the flyers aren't effective for their point costs and Flakk missiles get expensive. I usually always bring an ADL with quad-gun usually manned by devastators (plain MLs) and joined by a techmarine with PFG. Prescience helps but it makes for a pretty static fire base (very vulnerable to Helldrakes).

I know you said no FW but the Mortis Contemptor is by far the best AA option for DAs.

Deathwing squads can get TL assault cannons/cyclones on the turn they deep strike. With an allied Gate of Infinity Libby you can do it all game if you want

It's worked for me.

Flakk missiles won't do a thing to a Helldrake.

What about multi melta devs?
Cheap than missiles and AP1 is very potent at busting armor. The extra d6 is just a bonus really.

Martel732 wrote:
Flakk missiles won't do a thing to a Helldrake.

They can, you just need rather a lot of them or a butt shot.

That's why I prefer to drop behind the Heldrake and shoot a bunch of S6/S4 up the tailpipe.

I find Black Knights shooting rear armour is the best we've got.

How about Devestators w/ Flakk + Librarian manning a Icarus Lascannon Emplacement. Cast Prescience, have the Librarian man the gun and the Squad Leader use the Signum to raise the Librarian's BS to 5 for the phase. So now you have 4 TL Flakk Missiles and a TL BS 5 Lascannon Shot. That's more than enough AA if you ask me.

Chapter Master manning an Icarus (S9, ap 2) is pretty neat, he's BS 6 and if you pay to give him 2+ he's relatively safe from helldrakes.

D

I'm going to try out librarian with prescience and a squad of devs with lascannons. Cheaper than flakk and easier to pen.

Why are people only taking a single AA unit? If you need to kill flyers, a single unit just doesn't cut it. Better to have a list with multiple units that can threaten flyers, that way you're not hamstrung if your canny opponent takes out your quadgun campers immediately.

Dark Angels lack of AA is imo their biggest flaw.

Honestly, going by the currently evolving state of flyers, the Helldrake will probably be the worst we have to deal with within the edition (unless the current AV12 pre-6th flyers buck the trend and take a trip to Helldrake town when they get updated). AV12 plus a few other endurance buffs makes it a right bastard to kill for everyone. But in the end, when facing Chaos, we have the ability to field Deathwing and largely wreck face. So it is kind of a fair cop (especially since the Helldrake is kind of toothless against 2+ saves). If you are looking for a general counter against Helldrakes in a mixed list, then either massed AA assets (including fortifications) or the good old RWBK plasma talon up the rear (which should end it fairly quickly) can do the trick. Outside of that, things like Dakka Angels with massed infantry and the SoD can just overwhelm them while you pick away at the Helldrakes at your leisure.

Against the new crop of flyers (Eldar and Tau so far) we fair much better. With AV11 being the worst we need to deal with Flakk devs come in to their own (as do ADLs) and even the much maligned Nephelim can eat them for breakfast (in the Avenger configuration; though it needs side armour against the Tau) since it can HP ping AV10 flyers to death with stunning regularity while being relatively proof against return fire.

But if you find yourself on the other side of the table from the worst excesses of pre-6th flyer spam then it may be time to break out your own non-standard responses like Mortis dreads (regular or contemptor varieties), IG allies and FW flyers. Because unfortunately GW failed their chance to prematurely balance them in Death from the Skies and so we are stuck waiting for Necrons, IG and marines with access to the Stormraven to receive a proper balance pass in the current edition.

But in all honesty, our AA is only weak against AV12 flyers as it seems to be balanced around the assumption of AV11 or less on enemy flyers. Until that assumption is more universal, things like flakk and the Nephelim will be less than stellar. But if all armies are staring at flyers like those in the Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar books, then things will look a lot better overall.

Quad-Gun

I haven't played 6th edition yet but I think I'm getting into it. I'v noticed nobody's brought up rifleman dreads. Are they not great at AA?

 Darth Badguy wrote:
I haven't played 6th edition yet but I think I'm getting into it. I'v noticed nobody's brought up rifleman dreads. Are they not great at AA?

125 points and comparable damage output to a quad-gun....but it chews an elite slot and IMO is easier to kill, not to mention the ADL + quad-gun can shield your foot boys from a lot of incoming (non-helldrake anyways) firepower.

Best solution = Mortis Contemptor. Lascannons, or the kheres assault cannons and the CML. It's not cheap, but it has the best chance of taking it down. Problem is that you local chaos player will know this, and try to nuke the hell out of it first turn to neutralize the only real threat to his helldrake.

Next best = Hyperios Air Defense Batteries. BS3, twinlinked S8 interceptor, skyfire missiles for 35 points on a T6 W2 3+ save platform is a STEAL for it's points cost. Hell, It'd even take these things over devastators even if I knew I wasn't facing flyers. 140 points get you 2 units of 2 of them.

Third best = Quad-gun. It's better than the Icarus in every way, and it's interceptor as well, so you can luck out and stun/weapon destroy/kill the drake....but it's super unlikely. With a BS5 shooter, you have ~10.3% chance of killing the drake before it fires....with slightly more than that to stop it shooting. So 8 times out of 9, the helldrake is going to get at least one shot off when using the quad-gun.

Fourth choice is allies. Tau and some of their new toys or more likely imperial guard + vendettas and/or sabre weapon platforms.

Black Knights, Devastators with flakk or prescience + lascannon and the kitchen sink; Laughably bad at anti-air. Not only are they all more expensive than the above options, they are all less effective and most importantly lack interceptor. When the drake comes on it can move 36", then drop the 8" long flamer template within 12". That gives it an effective range of 54" from it's board edge. Barring an 18" strip at the back of a hammer and anvil deployment on a 6'x4' board, there is no where to hide where you will be able to fire at the drake and it cannot get you. If I was the chaos player and you were using Black Knights or devastators, I know EXACTLY where my first helldrake shot is dropping, and it's going to kill 5 out of 6 devastators hit (probably wiping them out) or 2 out of 3 of your rather expensive black knights hit.

Riflemen dread's don't have skyfire innately.

Currently, my best advice is a techmarine manning an ADL, and a flakk dev squad. Or vengeful strike deathwing termies.

T7 2+ against shooting, maybe only T4 against templates but still has a 2+ save for cheap.

 minigun762 wrote:
What about multi melta devs?
Cheap than missiles and AP1 is very potent at busting armor. The extra d6 is just a bonus really.

...Range?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I tend to scatter flakk missiles in five-man Tactical Squads to squat on objectives and be difficult to take out, but there are other schools of thought.

Yeah, the local DA player takes at least one mortis dread. Don't move it for a second, and voila, anti-air.

Those helldrakes look real cool until they explode due to interceptor fire. The best part is, if your opponent doesn't bring fliers, then hey, you've still got twin-linked lascannons.

With all this talk of Contemptor-Mortis, what you guys think of a regular Mortis dread? (no atomantic shielding, AV12/12/10 and BS4, but still with helical targeting array)? You think, it's worth its points in bigger games?
I like mine (2x TL LC), but I'm considering switching to Contemptor-Mortis too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. I've ran numbers on those AA options, out of boredom... and curiosity.

But before discussing those options, I'll give example of another viable AA option in my book. pack of devastators with lascannons with prescience casted upon them. Granted, they'll be hitting on 6, but LC is so much stronger than Flakk Missile/Autocannon, it's actually likely to penetrae the beast.

And with Helldrake's mighty AV12, Flakk missiles are just weak. Quadgun is weak too. And Helldrake is only flyer we care about.

Another matter: glancing AV12 flyer to death isn't easy (especially if it has invulnerable save). But just one penetrating hit is usually enough to destroy its weapon or at least forced to snapfire due to crew shaken/crew stunned (even with demonic posession it is possible).

Now, back to numbers

1. Icarus Lascannon (85pts + squad manning it)
BS4 S9 AP2, skyfire, 1 shot
7.4% to destroy, 3.6% weapon destroyed, 1% forced to snapfire. 87.9% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

2. Quad gun (100pts+squad) or flakk devs with prescience (170+65)
BS4 S7 AP4, twin linked, skyfire, 4 shots
7.5% to destroy, 5.6% weapon destroyed, 2.9% forced to snapfire. 84.3% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

Not much better. both options so unreliable.

3. lascannon devs with prescience (150+65) vs. helldrake
Snapfiring S9 AP2, twin linked, 4 shots

13.4% to destroy, 6.0% weapon destroyed, 1.9% forced to snapfire. 78.9% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

Hah! better, and with much more versatile squad. Give 'em extra guys with Bolters and Power Field Generator for Inv Save... or Imperial Bastion to hide 'em!

4. Nephilim Jetfighter (180pts). Lascannon and two Blacksword Missiles.
BS4 S9 AP2, twin linked, skyfire, 1 shots
BS4 S6 AP4, skyfire, 2 shots

9.9% to destroy, 4.9% weapon destroyed, 1.6% forced to snapfire. 83.6% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

Our interceptor fighter isn't great about intercepting enemy aircraft :( . Version armed with avenger megabolter can't penetrate this thing and has approximately 0% to glancnce it three times (especially with its 5+ inv save taken into account).

5. moving to dreadnoughts:
mortis dreadnought (155pts)
BS4 S9 AP2, twin linked, skyfire, 2 shots
19.4% to destroy, 8.7% weapon destroyed, 2.8% forced to snapfire. 69.5% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

It's good. It's semi-reliable. And it;s easy to convert out of regular plastic dreadnought set!

6. contemptor-mortis dreadnought with LC (185pts) vs. helldrake
BS5 S9 AP2, twin linked, skyfire, 2 shots
20.2% to destroy, 9.8% weapon destroyed, 3.2% forced to snapfire. 67.2% baleflamer thing remains operational :(
// not much better but on much more durable platform (+1AV and with atomantic shielding)

7. contemptor-mortis dreadnought (with kheres pattern AC 180pts)
BS5 S6 AP4, rending, skyfire, 12 shots
22.9% to destroy, 12.7% weapon destroyed, 5.8% forced to snapfire. 59.8% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

8. contemptor-mortis dreadnought (with kheres pattern AC and CML = 215pts)
BS5 S6 AP4, rending, skyfire, 12 shots
BS5 S8 AP3, skyfire, 2 shots
32.5% to destroy, 13.5% weapon destroyed, 6.5% forced to snapfire. 49.3% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

9 Single Sabre Weapons Platform with twinlinked autocannon (40pts + Infantry platoon + IG HQ)
BS3 S7 AP4, twin linked, skyfire, 1 shot
1.5% to destroy, 1.2% weapon destroyed, 0.7% forced to snapfire. 96.6% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

10. Single Sabre Weapons Platform with twinlinked lascannons (50pts + Infantry platoon + IG HQ)
BS3 S9 AP2, twin linked, skyfire, 1 shot
8.3% to destroy, 4.0% weapon destroyed, 1.4% forced to snapfire. 86.3% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

11. Three Sabre Weapons Platform with twinlinked lascannons (150pts + Infantry platoon + IG HQ)
BS3 S9 AP2, twin linked, skyfire, 3 shots
24.6% to destroy, 10.1% weapon destroyed, 3.3% forced to snapfire. 62.8% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

12. Single Hyperios (35pts)
BS3 S8 AP3, twin linked, skyfire, 1 shot
2.9% to destroy, 2.6% weapon destroyed, 1.3% forced to snapfire. 93.2% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

13. Four Hyperios (140pts)
13.4% to destroy, 9.0% weapon destroyed, 4.5% forced to snapfire. 73.7% baleflamer thing remains operational :(

14. Single Vendetta (130pts + Guard contingent)
BS3 S9 AP2, twin linked, skyfire, 3 shots
24.6% to destroy, 10.1% weapon destroyed, 3.3% forced to snapfire. 62.8% baleflamer thing remains operational :(
//
==
Conclusion: LC better than Flakk Missile, Kheres pattern AC better than LC. Hyperios not efficient. Codex options mostly useless :(
Still even considering FW stuff, Vendetta is THE most cost efficient helldrake-killer in the Imperium.