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... and by fastest, I mean the quickest turn-around time from buying boxes to playing a game.

With my current venture in imperial guard complete, I want to go back to tinkering with my CSM army. The problem is that I only ever made a few models, and they were berzerkers, which are currently more or less pointless to play at the moment. As such, I kind of consider my previous work more like an art project than the seeds of an army.

I've read over the new codex twice now, and have been talking to people, and, of course, it's not like I'm a noob to 40k or how to build a list either. That said, the balance I'm trying to strike is one between a reasonably powerful army, and an army that I can actually get onto the table with the relatively least time put into it as possible.

Here's what I have so far at 1850:


A.)

Huron

10x CSM - meltagun, combi-melta, lascannon
10x CSM - meltagun, combi-melta, lascannon

10x terminators - champ with fist, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon
10x terminators - champ with fist, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon
10x terminators - champ with claws, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon

Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend

The point to this list is that huron is going to make some number of those terminators infiltrate. Said infiltrating terminators and maulerfiends are going to slam into my opponent on turn 2. Those terminators unlucky enough to not infiltrate will arrive on turn 3. Basically, it's 1500 points of super-durable stuff ripping my opponent to shreds in his own deployment zone. I've got the CSM to hold my own objectives, but really, this list shines brightest when it denies my opponent their objectives, what with the terminators and maulerfiends.


B.)

Abaddon

4x terminators - champ with fist, chainfist, power fist, combi-weapons everywhere , mark of khorne
- Land Raider

5x terminators - champ with fist, chainfist, combi-weapons everywhere
- Land Raider

5x chosen - 5x meltaguns
5x chosen - 5x meltaguns

Land Raider
Land Raider

In my experience with playing guard, I've seen just how difficult AV14 is to kill, and bringing 4 land raiders means that I'm very, very likely to end the game with at least 2 or 3 land raiders still on the table (or, more likely, all four of them). Also, I start the game with literally nothing for any weapon S7 or worse (or, let's be honest, S8 or worse) can even damage at all. In the end, I've got a ton of meltaguns going forward, like the list above, but I also gain the durability of the armor, and I also gain 8 TLLCs. On top of that, I also gain the ability to play the game defensively if I want (say, in the situation of favorable scouring tokens, or whatever), as said lascannons and AV14 is going to be pretty tough to crack in a defensive position.

Plus, come on, Abaddon. Also, of course, this list is just 20 infantry models and 4 vehicles. Sounds pretty quick to me.


C.)

Lord - aura , burning brand, meltabombs
Lord - sigil, axe of blind fury

9x CSM - melta, combi-melta
- Rhino
9x CSM - melta, combi-melta
- Rhino
10x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
- Rhino
10x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
- Rhino
10x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
- Rhino
10x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
- Rhino

Predator - TLLC, 2x lascannons
Predator - TLLC, 2x lascannons
Predator - TLLC, 2x lascannons

Kind of bonks on quickness, what with being 60 infantry models and 9 vehicles, but I think this might well be within the time limits. The basic point of this is to beat up units early on with the preds and by mid-game be swarming my opponents in power armor, bolters, krak grenades and a big pile of meltaguns. Once again, the idea would be to put my opponent so far on the back foot early on that he has to spend the rest of the game recovering. In a way, this is a more balanced version of the above two lists, what with having more shooting and more troops, but less bonkers aggression.

D.)

Something else.

Pretty much the only thing I'm not terribly interested in is running a nurgle list, as form what little I know about how things are at the moment, it's that 95% of CSM players need to be taught a lesson that you can play CSM without playing nurgle. Also not too keen on helldrakes, as 100% of CSM players apparently need that same lesson for this unit. Plus, I think I'd have enough anti-infantry anyways.

I really like lists A and B, they look like the kind of craziness I might come up with
The Abaddon list is very light on Troops, which might prove a problem in games with many objectives, also even though you have all these lovely S8 and higher guns, this means you are dangerously low on light dakka like bolters. I think that in any game of objectives where you're facing hordes like Orks and Nids you'll lose with this list, simply because you cant kill that many critters with meltas and LC's.

I would also like to point out your serious lack of AA. Some other dakkanaught will be screaming "Heldrake" in the next post, so I wont do that.

By the way, you need to find 10 extra points for the Axewielding Lord in list C. He needs Mark of Khorne to use the Axe of Blind Fury.

I like the landraider list, although it feels as if you could do a similar idea with other marine codexes and it would be more effective.

How about a pimped out bike list? Similar to your first one with the maulers, but instead of the temies and Huron take a couple of lords on bikes and some big groups of bikes? Should still be a relatively low model count?

A and B are funny. But you need 6 marines for 5 meltaguns. Champ can't take them only Combi melta.

Personally I think C is the best. However I don't like how you've not taken advantage of any of CSM fast attack options. They're all awesome, especially when marked.
It also be faster to paint bikers or spawn than more marines.

Blakman wrote:By the way, you need to find 10 extra points for the Axewielding Lord in list C. He needs Mark of Khorne to use the Axe of Blind Fury.

oh... shutz.

Blakman wrote:The Abaddon list is very light on Troops, which might prove a problem in games with many objectives

But they've got mad durability. Plus, I've found that 6th ed isn't about troops anyways, much moreso than durable killing power, which list B is basically an attempt at the epitome of that principle in the CSM codex.

Blakman wrote:I think that in any game of objectives where you're facing hordes like Orks and Nids you'll lose with this list, simply because you cant kill that many critters with meltas and LC's.

Well, the terminators do have bolters, and also a fair bit of CC punch.

I guess the idea behind this would be to try and press down on horde lists' weaknesses in force concentration. The idea being that abaddon and his buds would be able to sit on an objective murdering stuff, and I'd be killing nids faster than they can get to an objective. Or, at least, they'd be contesting stuff/getting linebreaker.

Blakman wrote:I would also like to point out your serious lack of AA. Some other dakkanaught will be screaming "Heldrake" in the next post, so I wont do that.

Not even slightly concerned. No aircraft in the game are good against terminators, nor will they be able to get onto the table fast enough to stop a maulerfiend charge. Meanwhile, no aircraft in the game is good against terminators, nor land raiders. I mean, a vendetta kills a land raider on a 1 in 8 chance, while the land raider downs the flier on a 1 in 10. And that's a dedicated anti-vehicle against something that's not dedicated anti-flier. Throw in 4 of those bad boys and a melta hedge, and I'm really not worried about fliers.

The rhino rush list, on the other hand, does have that as more of a weakness, what with both rhinos and the squads of CSM have more to fear from fliers. That said, there still is a fair amount of melta, and those 3 preds are going to be exploding an AV12 flier once in three turns, and if there are a lot of fliers, that likely means there isn't much else to shoot those lascannons at. In any case, that's probably the weakest list against fliers.

Broly33 wrote:A and B are funny. But you need 6 marines for 5 meltaguns. Champ can't take them only Combi melta.

Oh. Then switch it out for a combi-melta then.

Dundas wrote:I like the landraider list, although it feels as if you could do a similar idea with other marine codexes and it would be more effective.

How so? SM don't get anything like abaddon, and, unless you're putting pedro in the list, nothing like scoring MEq units with 5 meltaguns. Plus, all those terminators have combi-weapons, which regular SM can't get, and there's a chainfist in each shooty terminator unit. And one has a mark of khorne.

It feels like doing this list with SM would require the terminators to be a fair bit worse (and more expensive) to do it.

Griddlelol wrote:Personally I think C is the best.

Why?

Dundas wrote:How about a pimped out bike list? Similar to your first one with the maulers, but instead of the temies and Huron take a couple of lords on bikes and some big groups of bikes? Should still be a relatively low model count?

Griddlelol wrote:However I don't like how you've not taken advantage of any of CSM fast attack options. They're all awesome, especially when marked.

The problem is that every time I look at FA slots, I then go back and look at terminators. And terminators are better.

Raptors can get somewhere by turn 3, and deliver 2 meltaguns and have some amount of close combat power. Terminators, for the same price, can get somewhere by turn 3, deliver 3 meltagun shots, and have better close combat abilities. The same is true for bikes, except, though I lose turbo-boosting, I gain the ability to go into ruins, and lose the occasional need to take dangerous terrain tests (which yes, even bikes die to sometimes). Meanwhile, warp talons seem REALLY pointless compared to terminators, and I just plain old don't get the point of spawn. If I wanted tough anti-infantry units that get somewhere by turn 2 or 3... why not take terminators with combi-flamers and power mauls?

Throw in chosen and posessed and mutilators and deepstriking obliterators into the exact same position, and the codex almost seems to me to be Codex: CSM, Terminators, and interesting vehicles. This would bother me, except I love terminators, so...

Why? All the bodies. I've always been shocked at why people choose specialist troops over the 13 point basic trooper. With enough of them (and what's that 50+ MEQ?) you have a lot of lasting power. Especially with the metal boxes.

I wasn't thinking bikes...I just think spawn are fantastic. They move fast, they're ultra-durable and they pack one hell of a punch in CC. You've got the melta-delivery, but you need a big durable threat: at least I'm my opinion anyway.

Edit: also, with 9 lascannons, 3 of which are twin linked; who the feth needs AA?

Bikes are great due to the mobility. If you place them centrally and turbo boost the first turn, you can be in close combat by turn 2. If you stick a Lord with them, they can eat shots for him and he will beat up most anyone. Paired up with other fast units like maulerfiends, the bikers can get up the field fast and be doing things quickly.

The issue I have with the terminator horde is that Huron is unreliable in the number of units that get to infiltrate. If he rolls 3 units, great. You place all the terminators in your opponents face while your weak troops hang out on some objectives. What if he rolls 1 unit. Now you probably have to deep strike the rest of the guys, meaning that your opponents whole army gets to pound 1/3 of your points for free for a turn or two. That is an issue against guard armies that pack a ton of plasma. Tau who who will make your roll a million save dice. Eldar who can saturate you with rends while running away. Other CSM armies will just roast your objective holders with heldrakes while ignoring the terminators.

Plus you don't have long range firepower so people can simply run away from you and go to your weakly occupied objectives. Terminator armor is nice, but the unit is slow and has little firepower that is not up-close.

I think a terminator heavy list will give a very uneven performance game to game.

I won't even bother recommending the turkey as your opinions about flyers are well known.

Griddlelol wrote:Why? All the bodies. I've always been shocked at why people choose specialist troops over the 13 point basic trooper.

Oh, don't get me started. The 1850 point list I REALLY want to play is...

Huron

3x terminators - combi-meltas, one lightning claw

20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta
20x CSM - 2x meltas, combi-melta

Because, seriously, over 100 dudes. It's a foot horde, except everybody gets bolters, power armor, and krak grenades.

This would be an awesome list to field... but... I'd have to make over 100 models... and I've already put together a foot horde army...

No! Bad Ailaros!

Griddlelol wrote:I wasn't thinking bikes...I just think spawn are fantastic. They move fast, they're ultra-durable and they pack one hell of a punch in CC. You've got the melta-delivery, but you need a big durable threat: at least I'm my opinion anyway.

That IS what I like about the maulerfiends from the other list. I feel like spawn are more or less fast ogryn, except they can't shoot stuff. Like, they'd be a threat... sometimes.

bogalubov wrote:Bikes are great due to the mobility.

Plus you don't have long range firepower so people can simply run away from you and go to your weakly occupied objectives.

I think you and I have a different understanding of what the point to mobility is. For example, if I charge onto my opponent's objectives, then my opponent can run wherever he wants - I'm still winning the game. Furthermore, let's not get any grand ideas here. My opponents can only run SO far - a 40k board is tiny.

Likewise, with the bikes, I see getting to do some damage on turn 2 and 3, and then being able to give up turn 4 (and maybe 5, depending) in order to redeploy somewhere else to get maybe a turn of damage in. I guess I don't see the point in losing so much just to gain that late-game extra round of shooting with bolters and hacking with chainswords.

Without Heldrakes none of the lists are competitive what so ever.

That foot horde would be a sight to see.

On the topic of spawn: I agree they're like ogryns but think about all the reasons you don't take ogryns.
1) T5 can be ID'd - spawn with MoN are T6
2) they're not that resilient to small arms - see above
3) they're too slow - they're beasts. The spawn are the opposite of slow
4) they're too expensive - with MoN they're 4 points cheaper. And they don't require a transport or lord commissar escort which are stealth costs to the ogryn.

Griddlelol wrote:On the topic of spawn: I agree they're like ogryns but think about all the reasons you don't take ogryns...

Sure. They're ogryn where the problem of ogryn have been fixed.

That said... why bother? That kind of durable, in-your-faceness can be done by other units. Units that can take melta weapons, and power weapons.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:Without Heldrakes none of the lists are competitive what so ever.

Consider yourself one of the 100%...

Ailaros wrote:Also not too keen on helldrakes, as 100% of CSM players apparently need that same lesson for this unit.

If you can't see how CSM can possibly be able to kill off infantry units, much less be competitive, without relying on a single unit, you probably don't have the basic creativity or ingenuity skills required to be all that helpful here.

 Ailaros wrote:

Griddlelol wrote:On the topic of spawn: I agree they're like ogryns but think about all the reasons you don't take ogryns...

Sure. They're ogryn where the problem of ogryn have been fixed.

That said... why bother? That kind of durable, in-your-faceness can be done by other units. Units that can take melta weapons, and power weapons.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:Without Heldrakes none of the lists are competitive what so ever.

Consider yourself one of the 100%...

Ailaros wrote:Also not too keen on helldrakes, as 100% of CSM players apparently need that same lesson for this unit.

If you can't see how CSM can possibly be able to kill off infantry units, much less be competitive, without relying on a single unit, you probably don't have the basic creativity or ingenuity skills required to be all that helpful here.

Lmao, apparently gimping your army and not taking the best tools at your disposal is called "creativity" now. In that case I'm perfectly content living without creativity. I'll keep playing the best model point for point in the game, not to mention one of the coolest looking ones.

 Ailaros wrote:

Pretty much the only thing I'm not terribly interested in is running a nurgle list, as form what little I know about how things are at the moment, it's that 95% of CSM players need to be taught a lesson that you can play CSM without playing nurgle. Also not too keen on helldrakes, as 100% of CSM players apparently need that same lesson for this unit. Plus, I think I'd have enough anti-infantry anyways.

I'm with you on the first, and make it 99% on the second - I've specifically decided not to acquire a Heldrake because everyone else says they're indispensable.

Looking at your potential lists, I'd say the terminator horde would be the most fun to play with/against. I'd consider leaving the champions with only basic power weapons as they pay through the nose for the power fists or claws, unlike the normal squad members (extra weapons are bought as wargear, not squad upgrades). Also don't forget the heavy weapons - autocannon are pricey but do give you extra ranged punch (as well as working OK against flyers due to twin-linking), while heavy flamers are cheap and effective - losing a bolter isn't that big a deal for them.

Are you opposed to the idea of marks at all, or just Nurgle? Terminators are one of the few units that benefit from the mark of Tzeentch, Khorne terminators are even more scary on the charge than standard terminators, and Slanneshi ones have at least some use, especially with a standard (don't forget these too).

HQ-wise Chaos have plenty of effective choices, Abbadon and Huron both work there, though from a background perspective the big guy seems more at home in an elite Black Legion Terminator assault force than Huron.

I've not used maulerfiends, however possibly also consider obliterators (they would seem to work particularly well with a terminator horde).

Just one point on the Heldrake - are you totally opposed to it, or just opposed to one with a baleflamer? Completely different things...

Your biggest weaknesses here will be a lack of reach (if the maulerfiends go down your terminators are slow and short ranged), and vulnerability to concentrated plasma fire. Some armies can bring a LOT of AP2 to the field and you will really struggle if your maulers can't tie them up. This might be one reason to consider spawn - against most opponents they'll be much better (i.e. more survivable) than the maulerfiends, and therefore excellent at tying up enemy units until your temies get there.

Also, was trying to help you improve as I'm 43 wins and 2 losses with my Chaos Space MArines.

You don't have to be butthurt that you either can't afford the models or you don't like playing competitive lists.

Also what ingenuity do you have? You're playing some of the worst units CSM have. Our LRs are trash and so are our Termies. You might as well just throw some possessed and 1k sons in the list while you're at it...

 Ailaros wrote:

Griddlelol wrote:

Griddlelol wrote:I wasn't thinking bikes...I just think spawn are fantastic. They move fast, they're ultra-durable and they pack one hell of a punch in CC. You've got the melta-delivery, but you need a big durable threat: at least I'm my opinion anyway.

That IS what I like about the maulerfiends from the other list. I feel like spawn are more or less fast ogryn, except they can't shoot stuff. Like, they'd be a threat... sometimes.

To clarify - spawn aren't really primarily taken as a damage threat, although they can be dangerous to some opponents. They're taken to act a pinning unit, holding the enemy in place until your heavy close-combat hitters get into range.

 Ailaros wrote:

Huron

10x CSM - meltagun, combi-melta, lascannon
10x CSM - meltagun, combi-melta, lascannon

10x terminators - champ with fist, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon
10x terminators - champ with fist, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon
10x terminators - champ with claws, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon

Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend

The point to this list is that huron is going to make some number of those terminators infiltrate. Said infiltrating terminators and maulerfiends are going to slam into my opponent on turn 2. Those terminators unlucky enough to not infiltrate will arrive on turn 3. Basically, it's 1500 points of super-durable stuff ripping my opponent to shreds in his own deployment zone. I've got the CSM to hold my own objectives, but really, this list shines brightest when it denies my opponent their objectives, what with the terminators and maulerfiends.

This list looks fun. Personally I think you'd be better off spamming Cultists for multiple objective grabbers with this list, but I think you'd disagree with that. But I may have to proxy this or have my friend proxy this sometime. It really looks entertaining!

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Also, was trying to help you improve as I'm 43 wins and 2 losses with my Chaos Space MArines.

You don't have to be butthurt that you either can't afford the models or you don't like playing competitive lists.

Also what ingenuity do you have? You're playing some of the worst units CSM have. Our LRs are trash and so are our Termies. You might as well just throw some possessed and 1k sons in the list while you're at it...

I believe the definition of ingenuity requires using things that are original or creative. Using a unit that everyone uses, is not particularly creative. Wasting everyone's time by offering advice against the wishes of the OP is not very useful either.

43-2? Holy crap. Maybe the next guard codex will replace Creed with you?

My opponents can only run SO far - a 40k board is tiny.

I don't need to run 8 feet. Just outside of 30 inches which is the range on most terminator weapons. That's where the combi-bolter suffers from not being a storm bolter as well. You're only pumping out 1 shot outside of 12 inches.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:apparently gimping your army and not taking the best tools at your disposal is called "creativity" now. In that case I'm perfectly content living without creativity. I'll keep playing the best model point for point in the game, not to mention one of the coolest looking ones.

You can play the game on easy mode with as little player skill as you can get away with as much as you like. I'm looking for more of a challenge. Something that requires a little creativity.

Furthermore, I'm not searching for a way to win as many dice games so that I can pass it off as player skill either. I'm searching for a way to get an army up quickly, and in a way that breaks up vapid groupthink.

Hedgehog wrote: I'd consider leaving the champions with only basic power weapons as they pay through the nose for the power fists or claws, unlike the normal squad members (extra weapons are bought as wargear, not squad upgrades).

Oh, thanks for the heads up, I completely missed that. I thought they paid the same price as the rest of the squad (what with "any terminator").

That does sort of leave open a question of what to arm him with, then.

Hedgehog wrote: Also don't forget the heavy weapons - autocannon are pricey but do give you extra ranged punch (as well as working OK against flyers due to twin-linking), while heavy flamers are cheap and effective - losing a bolter isn't that big a deal for them.

Oh, but why? That stupid autocannon costs as much as FIVE combi-weapons. It can shoot further away, and it can also shoot more than once, but seriously, five combi-plasmas. Hell, even five combi-meltas. I don't like autocannons to begin with and if perhaps they were cheaper, I might consider (as I like the model), but as-is...

And for the heavy flamer, why not just take a pair of combi-flamers? Why bother at all, actually? They're combi-BOLTERS after all, and it's not like, once they're in flamer range, they can't just chop things up in close combat either.

Now, if we were talking about terminator squads that were purely sit-on-my-side-of-the-board, then I'd consider the autocannon, and if I was going to do termicide, I'd actually seriously consider a heavy flamer and a pair of combi-meltas, but I'm not really considering either, as it sort of feels like a bit of wasted potential.

Hedgehog wrote: Are you opposed to the idea of marks at all, or just Nurgle? Terminators are one of the few units that benefit from the mark of Tzeentch, Khorne terminators are even more scary on the charge than standard terminators, and Slanneshi ones have at least some use, especially with a standard (don't forget these too).

No. Not per se.

The problem I have with marking terminators is the problem I have with marking anything in the current codex - it's just not worth the cost. Anything I can do with the marks and banners (except for fearless from vengeance) I can do better by just spending those points on more dudes. I mean, for the price of giving 7 terminators the mark of tzeentch, I could just take an eighth terminator. Giving a15% durability boost against certain weapons doesn't seem as good as taking a 15% durability boost against all the other weapons, and getting an extra combi-weapon and close combat weapon to boot. With slaanesh and the FNP banner, it's even worse.

Now, if I were running a single-god CSM list, I'd certainly do it, and when I was originally setting up this army, I was just assuming straight away that it would be MoK termies. Now, however, I'm not certain that that's where I want my army to go.

If I can be convinced to dedicate to a single chaos god, then fine, but otherwise, keeping them cheap renegades seems like the better idea.

Hedgehog wrote:however possibly also consider obliterators (they would seem to work particularly well with a terminator horde).

But why? They're terminators that don't even come with combi-weapons. If I want ranged support, I'd rather take havocs or vehicles that can more consistently put down more damage with more speed. If I want short ranged support (say, by deepstriking them), then why not just take more terminators?

Hedgehog wrote:Just one point on the Heldrake - are you totally opposed to it, or just opposed to one with a baleflamer? Completely different things...

I'm against the helldrake on ethical grounds, and I'm against the hades autocannon helldrake on moral ones. Why I'd bother to get eyes rolled at me only to field such a pointless vehicle, I don't quite understand.

Also, I'd rather just take a forgefiend in that case and double the dakka.

Hedgehog wrote:Your biggest weaknesses here will be a lack of reach (if the maulerfiends go down your terminators are slow and short ranged.

Not too concerned about that. 40k isn't a game about mobility, it's a game of having just enough mobility to kill stuff and to be in the right places at the end of the game.

Having plasma spam be a hard counter is more of a concern, naturally. There are a few things that I'm doing to help that somewhat, like infiltrating+maulerfiending with A and putting everyone in a land raider with B. I guess that's probably just a risk I'm going to have to take with going for a small-model-count list.

bogalubov wrote:43-2? Holy crap. Maybe the next guard codex will replace Creed with you?

Why would they replace the greatest genius of the imperial guard with someone who only picks on those weaker than him by uncreative means? Plus, creed doesn't rely on luck, something which all 40k players must.

bogalubov wrote:I don't need to run 8 feet. Just outside of 30 inches which is the range on most terminator weapons.

Yes, but where are you running TO?

If I have good field position, which I would with 30 terminators plus other stuff, then it's not going to be very difficult for me to pen you into a corner or some other board space. I've done it dozens of times with my foot guard. Furthermore, if I'm moving towards objectives, and you're moving away from me, you're necessarily moving away from objectives. Something I have no problems with.

I just came to put my two cents in on the fact that I love Huron as an HQ. He's the best. I never leave home without him.

I like all 3 list, you could get the LR on the table in one day if you get all the models at the same time and start putting them together in the morning.

gpfunk wrote:I just came to put my two cents in on the fact that I love Huron as an HQ. He's the best. I never leave home without him.

lol.

All right, I got my army, and my rulebook, and my car keys, and my dice... umm... hmm... what am I missing?

In all seriousness, huron is everything but terminator armor that I'd deem perfect in an HQ choice. Decent fighting abilities, neat wargear, and armywide buffs. I even find his random psychic power pet charming, rather than annoying. I think I'd model it as something else than a random xeno, though. I like the idea of a scribe running around, recording his many deeds of glory, and, when summoned, flips open the spellbook to a random page because the master is too impatient to wait for the scribe to find the one he wants.

CannedKhorne wrote:I like all 3 list, you could get the LR on the table in one day if you get all the models at the same time and start putting them together in the morning.

I like it for that reason too...

... but buying a second box of terminators, a box of CSM, a bunch of bitz-ordered meltaguns, and THREE LAND RAIDERS feels like my wife would have to slay me where I stand if she found out I spent that much money on 40k in a single drop.

Realistically, it would be the other way, I'd make an army in the same amount of time, but as it's much fewer models, I'd be able to really focus on doing a nice job with the modelling side.

Huron

10x CSM - meltagun, combi-melta, lascannon
10x CSM - meltagun, combi-melta, lascannon

10x terminators - champ with fist, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon
10x terminators - champ with fist, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon
10x terminators - champ with claws, one dude with chainfist, everybody has a combi-weapon

Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend

This definitely looks super fun. It also shouldn't be half bad for winning either. My only concern is once you are committed you only have the maulerfiends that can reposition with any speed. There are a number of armies (CWE, your mechguard, ravenwing, Deldar) which can destroy 3 maulerfiends split 3 ways and then leave you with islands of termies without range while they destroy your CSM. If I was playing against this list with any of those armies I would drop my objectives in your deployment zone and deploy along my board edge in a spread out line. When you infiltrate/deep strike I can then just turbo boost across the board 30"+ and deal with your CSM and maulerfiends. You will have to come up with a counter for this. I might recommend some small spawn units to tie up the enemy so you can catch up.

Are you planning on taking veterans of the long war? With the new eldar Ld shenanigans and the doom low Ld units can have some major problems. There is also the fact that without ASKNF your big termie units can take 25% casualties and then run and never regroup.

For the spawn the best use I have seen for them is to use them as ablative wounds for a biker lord with X weapon of doom (usually seems to be the axe). It works well with a bunch of nasty units running into the enemy deployment zone and swamping it.

They can also work well as mobile tarpits as they are fast and they can punch transports to death or wrap up bikers/infantry for that 1-2 turns you need.

ansacs wrote:If I was playing against this list with any of those armies I would drop my objectives in your deployment zone and deploy along my board edge in a spread out line. You will have to come up with a counter for this.

Well, in that case I'd take advantage of the fact that the objectives are all on my side of the table and just camp the objectives for the win. So long as there are 10 terminators on any objective... I'd probably win. Otherwise, it's handling secondaries.

I do agree with the idea that it's possible to pick off the maulerfiends early on, but hopefully that means that all of those big scary guns WOULDN'T be pointing at my terminators, who have the potential for a 2-turn (or certainly a 3-turn) charge.

Intetrestingly enough, I did have an idea for a fourth list that was basically 3x lascannon preds, 3x maulerfiends, and 3x hellbrutes, in addition to other rapidly-advancing stuff. The preds pick off the biggest threat to the fiends and dreads while they get in with their turn 2 and 3 charges. Basically, there would just be too much AV12+ to deal with, especially if there were also some infiltrating terminators involved.

ansacs wrote:Are you planning on taking veterans of the long war? With the new eldar Ld shenanigans and the doom low Ld units can have some major problems. There is also the fact that without ASKNF your big termie units can take 25% casualties and then run and never regroup.

I wasn't planning on it, really. Ld9 is still pretty spiffy, and you only need a single model with vets (say, an HQ or a special character with the ability rolled in) to give the entire squad the benefit of rerolling those 1's.

Now, I might consider it for fluff reasons, if I decide that what I want is to have my warband be something completely dedicated to killing space marines, but I haven't figured out my fluff yet. In any case, I don't know if I think it's worth it just for the leadership, and, given the sudden if unsurprising spike in xenos armies we're seeing as of late...

For the spawn the best use I have seen for them is to use them as ablative wounds for a biker lord with X weapon of doom (usually seems to be the axe). It works well with a bunch of nasty units running into the enemy deployment zone and swamping it.

They can also work well as mobile tarpits as they are fast and they can punch transports to death or wrap up bikers/infantry for that 1-2 turns you need.

Note that Forge World does a terminator Huron (here) - no idea of the rules etc for him though...

That's the pre-treason Huron, to be used in the Tyrant of Badab campaign that FW put out. Post-treason, he likes to hang out in power armor, and has rules as such.

 Ailaros wrote:

I do agree with the idea that it's possible to pick off the maulerfiends early on, but hopefully that means that all of those big scary guns WOULDN'T be pointing at my terminators, who have the potential for a 2-turn (or certainly a 3-turn) charge.

Intetrestingly enough, I did have an idea for a fourth list that was basically 3x lascannon preds, 3x maulerfiends, and 3x hellbrutes, in addition to other rapidly-advancing stuff. The preds pick off the biggest threat to the fiends and dreads while they get in with their turn 2 and 3 charges. Basically, there would just be too much AV12+ to deal with, especially if there were also some infiltrating terminators involved.

Have you had a chance to see the new Eldar codex? If you haven't you should give it a flip though as that is probably going to be one of those hard counter armies to this type of list. Just letting your know not trying to get you to abandon it.

I just feel and my experience (and math) back it up that you either are going to need more long range transport killers or you will need more fast threates that can kill transports (spawn, oblits, bikers, pred). I almost don't want to say pred though as I would like you to post some well painted and detailed mauler fiends for us to ogle.

 Ailaros wrote:

I wasn't planning on it, really. Ld9 is still pretty spiffy, and you only need a single model with vets (say, an HQ or a special character with the ability rolled in) to give the entire squad the benefit of rerolling those 1's.

Now, I might consider it for fluff reasons, if I decide that what I want is to have my warband be something completely dedicated to killing space marines, but I haven't figured out my fluff yet. In any case, I don't know if I think it's worth it just for the leadership, and, given the sudden if unsurprising spike in xenos armies we're seeing as of late...

Well it is 1 point per model and you gain huge against SM armies. Against everyone else you get +1 LD which takes you from getting pinned/running from morale 27% of the time to 8%. This is important when if someone makes you fail a Ld check due to a bad round in assault (can happen) or just keeps pinning you (eldar have a lot of weapons with pinning now) you will fail 3x as many of these tests without it.

Dundas wrote:I like the landraider list, although it feels as if you could do a similar idea with other marine codexes and it would be more effective.

How so? SM don't get anything like abaddon, and, unless you're putting pedro in the list, nothing like scoring MEq units with 5 meltaguns. Plus, all those terminators have combi-weapons, which regular SM can't get, and there's a chainfist in each shooty terminator unit. And one has a mark of khorne.

It feels like doing this list with SM would require the terminators to be a fair bit worse (and more expensive) to do it.

The melta and lascannon setup is rubbish on the first list because lascannon has 48" range and melta 12" range, so the melta will be rarely firing. Not like someone is going to drive up to you in tank. Also if you move then you're only snap firing, pretty expensive to do that with a lascannon.

Other lists are fine though, but you will struggle with anti air in all cases, but that being said you do have weight of fire power, which may win you the day.

Griddlelol wrote:I wasn't thinking bikes...I just think spawn are fantastic. They move fast, they're ultra-durable and they pack one hell of a punch in CC. You've got the melta-delivery, but you need a big durable threat: at least I'm my opinion anyway.

That IS what I like about the maulerfiends from the other list. I feel like spawn are more or less fast ogryn, except they can't shoot stuff. Like, they'd be a threat... sometimes.

A couple of units of Spawn would give that threat all the time, 15 Toughness 6 Wounds that can throw out 40 Poisoned str 5 attacks on a good roll? Plus, they're amazing at tarpitting if your opponent has something you're going to struggle to deal with!