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1.How old is the average SOB?
2.Is there a reason they seem to all have white hair?
3.How many of them are there at a time?
4.Are they allowed to have any kind of sexual interaction what so ever?
5.Have there ever been instances of large groups of sisters falling to chaos?
6.Do they have any modification once so ever to their physiology?
7.I know Space Marines due to some being old enough to understand the emperor wasn't the CREATOR GOD despite being one don't typically buy completely into the imperial cult but are certain sisters intelligent enough to know?
The reason I ask is because I liked the feel of mildly individually powerful warrior nuns and I want some questions answered and these are the biggest ones. Thanks

1. Unsure, I'd expect early 30s to 40s

2. Not all have white hair:


4. Nope, none.

5. No. Only 1 sister in the fluff (that I know of) has ever fallen

6. If you mean like how the Space Marines are altered, no. However bionics are still used to replace lost limbs/organs ect.

7. There are always some, but most believe he is truly a god.

1. Going by Sister Anastasia's background in the Inquisitor RPG, they become Novices at age 12. Anastasia's novitiate lasted for 5 years until she graduated to the status of a full Sister Militant at age 17. Their commanders can age well over a hundred years, as per the example of Canoness Carmina on the Armageddon 3 world campaign website, who is on record for leading the Order of the Argent Shroud "for almost a century", with such extreme cases likely involving rejuvenation treatments. The average age is hard to guess, but Codex fluff hints at a relatively high attrition rate for the Major Orders, whose mobile detachments bear the brunt of the Sisterhood's engagement in galactic conflict, so I would surmise between 20-30 for the Major Orders, perhaps 30-40 for the Minor ones (simply due to the latter suffering fewer casualties).

2. Hair colour seems dependent on the Order as if it was a part of the uniform. The majority of the Sisterhood's Orders sport black hair, with only the Order of Our Martyred Lady being shown with white hair. Canonesses have at times been depicted with two hair colours (such as large streaks of white on black), which might be a small degree of hubris, or perhaps a sign that the Sister in question has transferred from one Order into another and uses the secondary hair colour as a sort of remembrance.
Of course it may also be that hair colour is not as uniform and they are allowed greater individuality than the material suggests, but this would be an interpretation not backed by GW's own army photos and artworks.

3. As per the organisational article in the 2E Codex, the six Major Orders' numbers fluctuate between 3.000 and 4.000 warriors each, though they can grow as large as 6k or 7k, or suffer casualties pushing them down to a few hundred. The unknown factor is the number of the Minor Orders, whose size tends to be around a hundred Sisters each. The Force Disposition Charts for the Third War for Armageddon and the Thirteenth Black Crusade had the Space Marines outnumbering the Battle Sisters on a factor of 15:1. My personal guesstimate hovers somewhere at a few hundred thousand Battle Sisters tops, although that is obviously a very loose speculation.

4. The convents exist in isolation to the outside and the Sisters are entirely devoted to their task, shunning worldly pleasures in favour of "constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work". A small story blurb in the 4E rulebook explained that they instead seek purification through pain, regarding it as a way to be one with the Emperor.

5. Not in GW fluff, which has in the past even used the term "incorruptible" to describe their resilience against Chaos.
In outsourced products, there have been a few cases. One being the insurrection in a convent of the Sisters Pronatus on the planet Parnis in the BL graphic novel "Daemonifuge", which involved a patrolling task force of the Order of Our Martyred Lady. This incident was actually semi-referenced in the White Dwarf Liber Sororitas. I have heard that there are some more novels making use of this theme.

6. None on record, apart from potential cybernetic replacements for lost limbs. They are raised from infancy within the Schola Progenium, and go through a grueling training regime designed to hone both their minds and their bodies into the perfect brainwashed and fanatical tool of war.

7. This isn't a question of intelligence but of knowledge. The Sisters grow up having the Imperial Faith drilled into their heads for decades, and given that the vast majority of the Imperium simply treats the Emperor's divinity as an established fact and "proof" for it has been around for millennia with no criticism being condoned, the Sisters have little reason to question their teachings. Indeed, doing so would make them unfit as members of the Adepta Sororitas, subject to serious punishment, and deprive them of the fanatism required for their Acts of Faith.


Disclaimer: All of the above, with exception to the additional information for question #5, is taken from Games Workshop sources only. Fans should be aware that the franchise as a whole does not support the concept of canonicity as in "the existence of one singular truth", which means that other officially licensed sources may often depict an interpretation of the Sororitas (or other aspects of the setting) which is either not supported by or even in conflict with GW's original fluff. Neither version is incorrect and it is up to the individual fan to determine which he or she prefers, or whether they instead resort to their own ideas - so do not take any of this as some sort of "law" you need to follow, but instead regard it as potential inspiration.

I They generally graduate from novicate at mid-late teens generally. Once a Sister it's pretty much a life-time job.

II Sister Katherine, Alica Dominica's Right Hand and leader of Order of the Fiery Heart, now Order of the Martyred Lady, till her eventual death was said to have had her hair turn White when she met the Emperor at the end of the Age of Apostasy. Sisters of this Order dye their hair white in tribute to her.

III Ask ten different people and they'll give you ten different answers. GW has never given official figures, only rough guides for the Orders Major, an unknown number of Orders Minor and that the Chamber Militant are where more then half of all Sisters are allocated.
Going by figures given in massed campaigns, you'll think they be less then 100,000. Or extrapolate on where they all are at any given time and Millions, if not Billions are the answer.

What we do know is that they guard the Ecclesiarchy Shrines, Temples, Churches and Cathedrals.
They are bodyguards for most high-ranking Ecclesiarchy staff and VIPs.
They are the primary, if not sole combatants in Wars of Faith.
They are the guards on Pilgrimage Lanes and Pilgrimage Ships.
They are also guards on the occasional Navy ship and on the odd occasion, Black Ships as well.
They guard any sizable item, person or place of Ecclesiarchy Interest.
They police the Ecclesiarchy itself.
They routinely investigate the upper echelons of many other Adeptus organisations.
They are the primary military force on Shrine Worlds. (Except when it's Imperial Fists. Thank you Ultramarine, the movie )
Their smallest formal force, a Mission, what is considered to be more or less a scouting party, is a 500 point army.
They are the guards for any Sororita establishment.

And I'm certain I'm missing a few more here.
Also, as guards we aren't just talking about a squad here, it's Missions minimum. Often it'll be an entire minor Order, one or more Preceptories strong. (A Preceptory is 1,000 strong. Much akin to a Marine Chapter)

IV Never really covered except in one certain story of a certain author with a seemingly dubious understanding of the Sisters. Unlikely given their nature.

V This is an annoying question as the last time there was a FORMAL word on this issue was that only one had ever fallen. This of course was taken as a challenge by everyone since and so in many various sources there have been many falling left, right and centre.
It comes down to which sources you pick and choose. (And GW have made it known several times that you are allowed and encouraged to Pick and Choose what you want.)

VI Juvant Treatments are not unheard of.
Electoos (Essentially a tattoo that can store information and interface with certain computers to display biometric data updated in real-time) are compulsory (It's the small face tattoo they have).
Bionics, Eye Jobs, internal Blood Filters and the such are common also.
They are nothing like Marines and their many Organ implants but they exist and do happen on a regular basis.

VII Imperial Creed does not actually hold the Emperor as being a Creatrix but as Humanities Protector and guardian. This can and will vary from world to world, the Ecclesiarchy on the most part doesn't care about the specifics but the main version that Sisters mostly know is largely a mythology of the reality.
As you climb the ranks, it becomes clearer with Palantines and above learning the full truth about many things.
The Sisterhood maintains close, formal and friendly ties with the Adeptus Custodes (A plot element I hope GW further explores in any future Sister of Battle Codex or even BL novels) and so it's not hard to imagine that the Sisterhood even know a fair bit from the very top. This is also true for the Ecclesiarchy itself but you have to be Bishop or higher before you start to get the same information.

Everybody else has already answered sufficiently, but in regards to point five I think it's worth pointing out that, from what I've seen, the only ones who have "fallen" to Chaos in black library ect. were straight-up mind-jacked. In Daemonifuge, IIRC, they're all forcibly possessed or controlled (something like that). In Cain's Last Stand, they're being mind controlled by a psyker and near enough immediately kill themselves once that control is broken.

In both of these examples they never actually fell to Chaos, since they were controlled against their will. As it stands, pretty sure that it's still just one that has actually fallen, within all of the "official" canon.

Kettu wrote:Sister Katherine, Alica Dominica's Right Hand and leader of Order of the Fiery Heart, now Order of the Martyred Lady, till her eventual death was said to have had her hair turn White when she met the Emperor at the end of the Age of Apostasy. Sisters of this Order dye their hair white in tribute to her.

This is interesting - I don't recall ever reading this, though it would make sense. Is this from a GW source?

Kettu wrote:Ask ten different people and they'll give you ten different answers. GW has never given official figures, only rough guides for the Orders Major, an unknown number of Orders Minor and that the Chamber Militant are where more then half of all Sisters are allocated.
Going by figures given in massed campaigns, you'll think they be less then 100,000. Or extrapolate on where they all are at any given time and Millions, if not Billions are the answer.

To me, it seems it's nigh-impossible to extrapolate just based on their tasks, since we know next to nothing about how many sites and facilities actually warrant Militant protection. It's not just "all cathedrals" or something, which (given the size of the Imperium) would surely make for very large numbers, but instead "the most important". The cathedral on Bladen, for example, had no Sororitas protection in spite of being the oldest holy site of the sub-sector - in the Codex Cityfight fluff, its only defenders were the priesthood and a regiment of Cadians.

As to the other points, the primary combatants in most Wars of Faith would be the vast masses of Frateris Militia summoned by the bombastic Confessors, as well as Guard and Navy assets convinced to join a campaign. The Sisters Militant "only" provide a highly trained core around which other sections of the crusade would form. I have also never heard of them being guards on some Navy vessel or the "primary" military force on Shrine Worlds. Similarly, I would assume that the Sororitas facilities belonging to the Non-Militant Orders have their own guards recruited out of their own ranks - a belief founded on the isolation between convents that sees even Sisters of other Orders not allowed to interact with anyone but the Sisters Superior of the respective base, as well the miniscule size of some of the Non-Militant Orders. Although it is certainly possible that larger and particularly installations have a detachment of "true" Sisters Militant temporarily attached to them.

Kettu wrote:Also, as guards we aren't just talking about a squad here, it's Missions minimum. Often it'll be an entire minor Order, one or more Preceptories strong. (A Preceptory is 1,000 strong. Much akin to a Marine Chapter)

The 6E rulebook actually goes a bit into detail regarding this. "Guards" can mean even just one single Sister, silently standing watch over some remote shrine.

Kettu wrote:This is an annoying question as the last time there was a FORMAL word on this issue was that only one had ever fallen. This of course was taken as a challenge by everyone since and so in many various sources there have been many falling left, right and centre.
It comes down to which sources you pick and choose. (And GW have made it known several times that you are allowed and encouraged to Pick and Choose what you want.)

Just a small addendum to this: GW itself never actually included Miriael Sabathiel (which I assume you're referring to) into their own fluff - although I do like her background and believe it fits well into the setting, it is worth pointing out that it is ultimately just yet another outsourced product which may or may not fit to the studio vision. You won't find word of even a single Sister having fallen in WD or Codex fluff (unless I've missed something, but in this case I would welcome any pointers!).

PS: Sorry for the nitpicking - but whilst I have come to terms with deviating fluff in other sources, I'm interested in any discussion about GW fluff being as accurate as possible

Troike wrote:Everybody else has already answered sufficiently, but in regards to point five I think it's worth pointing out that, from what I've seen, the only ones who have "fallen" to Chaos in black library ect. were straight-up mind-jacked. In Daemonifuge, IIRC, they're all forcibly possessed or controlled (something like that). In Cain's Last Stand, they're being mind controlled by a psyker and near enough immediately kill themselves once that control is broken.
In both of these examples they never actually fell to Chaos, since they were controlled against their will. As it stands, pretty sure that it's still just one that has actually fallen, within all of the "official" canon.

Personally, I would count "mind-jacked" as "fallen". It's a matter of interpretation, of course, but I would say "falling to Chaos" includes incidents where one's willpower was not strong enough to resist the lure of the Ruinous Powers. The Shield of Faith and their fanatism was mentioned to protect against influence from the Warp, after all.

As far as Daemonifuge is concerned, though, I just remembered a potentially interesting detail - it's not actually clear whether the Battle Sisters in it actually fell. The Sisters Pronatus were corrupted by the Keeper of Secrets, but if one would really try to be adamant about it, they could point out that the Battle Sisters on-site could have simply reacted to the corruption and attempted (unsuccessfully) to purge them. Following this, their corpses were re-animated into becoming the warriors that would later attack Canoness Ramientes' strike force. In this case, the souls of the Battle Sisters would have remained pure.
Even the (unfairly, imho) infamous Bloodtide incident in the Grey Knights Codex had the Battle Sisters who were corrupted just die to the Bloodletters instead of being turned.

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:Everybody else has already answered sufficiently, but in regards to point five I think it's worth pointing out that, from what I've seen, the only ones who have "fallen" to Chaos in black library ect. were straight-up mind-jacked. In Daemonifuge, IIRC, they're all forcibly possessed or controlled (something like that). In Cain's Last Stand, they're being mind controlled by a psyker and near enough immediately kill themselves once that control is broken.
In both of these examples they never actually fell to Chaos, since they were controlled against their will. As it stands, pretty sure that it's still just one that has actually fallen, within all of the "official" canon.

Personally, I would count "mind-jacked" as "fallen". It's a matter of interpretation, of course, but I would say "falling to Chaos" includes incidents where one's willpower was not strong enough to resist the lure of the Ruinous Powers. The Shield of Faith and their fanatism was mentioned to protect against influence from the Warp, after all.

Note that in the Cain book, they immediately go mad and proceed to kill themselves when they're brought out of it. Had they actually fallen, this would not have happened. Seems that they "were not themselves" while under the psyker's influence. And, in fairness, in the Cain example, Cain says something to the effect of "if he could control even the Emperor's most dedicated servants..." which would imply that the author is very much aware of the incorruptible status of the Sisters, and acknowledges that them of all people being turned must have taken an extremely strong psyker.

As for the Sheild of Faith, I would more or less agree, but I suppose not all authors do. Or at least they don't think that it's infalliable. Though, again, Mitchell does talk up how powerful Varan must have been to control the Sisters.

Can't really talk about Daemonifuge with any confidence, since I haven't read it.

Anyway, not the biggest fan of Sisters falling, myself, just trying to reconcile it with the codex/GW fluff a bit.

Troike wrote:Can't really talk about Daemonifuge with any confidence, since I haven't read it.

Oooh. You may want to fix that, if you like reading about SoB that is. They're pretty badass in there, and the visual style is nice.

I did like Demonifuge..

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:Can't really talk about Daemonifuge with any confidence, since I haven't read it.

Oooh. You may want to fix that, if you like reading about SoB that is. They're pretty badass in there, and the visual style is nice.

I'd really like to! I've seen parts of it here and there, but not the whole thing.

Might buy it from BL sometime, though. Would be pretty awesome to have a physical copy of an SoB comic.

I appreciate the answers from everyone and I got several differing views that I can look at. Much appreciated

 Lynata wrote:
This is interesting - I don't recall ever reading this, though it would make sense. Is this from a GW source?

I think this was a WD article back in 3rd ed or even the Fanatic Magazine. I honestly can't recall at this point and all my books are packed away at the moment ready for moving.

 Lynata wrote:
To me, it seems it's nigh-impossible to extrapolate just based on their tasks, since we know next to nothing about how many sites and facilities actually warrant Militant protection. It's not just "all cathedrals" or something, which (given the size of the Imperium) would surely make for very large numbers, but instead "the most important". The cathedral on Bladen, for example, had no Sororitas protection in spite of being the oldest holy site of the sub-sector - in the Codex Cityfight fluff, its only defenders were the priesthood and a regiment of Cadians.

This is one of the annoying things about the Sisters. I think pretty much everyone in GW has their own idea and because no official figures are ever given every individual can make their own statements.
Pre-Blood of Martyrs the entire Calixis Sector had fifty Sisters Militant, one Dormitory of Sisters Hospitaller (On a world far away from anything and everything) and maybe three or four Sisters Famulous in total with any Sister PCs generally understood as being brought in from external sources by Inquisitors.
This was changed as now the Shrine World has Sisters Militant, smaller forces of several Orders operate across the Sector and most the Eccles staff now have bodyguards.

There are many sources where Sisters are not mentioned at all even though they should be there, your Cityfight example is a good one. Allegedly Jes Goodwin said that at one point for a few years post codex Witchhunters and its poor sales the Sisters were affectively considered removed as a force as any future development would be rather major so it was kind of a case of 'out of sight, out of mind'.
Quote notwithstanding, this notion has been, to a degree, confirmed by many other lower sources and even JJ was quoted at one point saying that Sisters are not high on their priorities or words to that effect. If this is the case it does lend support to the idea of the general lack of sisters from the fluff is more akin to lack of PDF from fluff, not a faction, not worth mentioning.

 Lynata wrote:
As to the other points, the primary combatants in most Wars of Faith would be the vast masses of Frateris Militia summoned by the bombastic Confessors, as well as Guard and Navy assets convinced to join a campaign. The Sisters Militant "only" provide a highly trained core around which other sections of the crusade would form. I have also never heard of them being guards on some Navy vessel or the "primary" military force on Shrine Worlds. Similarly, I would assume that the Sororitas facilities belonging to the Non-Militant Orders have their own guards recruited out of their own ranks - a belief founded on the isolation between convents that sees even Sisters of other Orders not allowed to interact with anyone but the Sisters Superior of the respective base, as well the miniscule size of some of the Non-Militant Orders. Although it is certainly possible that larger and particularly installations have a detachment of "true" Sisters Militant temporarily attached to them.

With Wars of Faith, it's been said (C: WH I Believe) that the Sisters Militant form the primary force.
Separate sources have mentioned Frateris Militia already skirt the Decree Passive and the Ecclesiarch needs something easily directed and commanded. Also, as Wars of Faith are Ecclesiarchy run affairs they don't want external forces involved like the Guard. I also can't Imagine the Adeptus Administratum allowing their use like that unless there was a major objective that interested them.

The Navy parts come from Battle Fleet Gothic and Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd ed. Pilgrimage Lanes are in the interest of the Ecclesiarchy and only of tertiary importance to the Navy itself. Sisters excel as guards and boarding parties on Navy vessels and so the Navy sees it as acceptable trade to then also include the Pilgrimage lanes in their patrol routes.

As for inter-order communication and networking, this is a case of new fluff directly conflicting with old fluff.
Dark Heresy, pretty much the only real in depth exploration of the Sisterhood since 2nd ed makes it clear that Sisters tend to transfer between Orders (Including non-militant/militant x-overs) two or more times during their life and cooperation between orders is common. In fact that the only real reason the Sisterhood orders don't communicate more is due to rarely meeting each other.
This is also partially supported early in BL's Faith and Fire.

 Lynata wrote:
The 6E rulebook actually goes a bit into detail regarding this. "Guards" can mean even just one single Sister, silently standing watch over some remote shrine.

Point.
That piece annoys me personally, on one hand it supports the dedication of the Sisters but one the other hand it does nothing to actually support the sisters here or is consistent. If you have a solitary Sister guarding a tiny, forgotten shrine then where are they on every single major world with a Church? If the Sisterhood is actually tiny and can't spare the woman-power, then why have one at a tiny forgotten shrine?

 Lynata wrote:
Just a small addendum to this: GW itself never actually included Miriael Sabathiel (which I assume you're referring to) into their own fluff - although I do like her background and believe it fits well into the setting, it is worth pointing out that it is ultimately just yet another outsourced product which may or may not fit to the studio vision. You won't find word of even a single Sister having fallen in WD or Codex fluff (unless I've missed something, but in this case I would welcome any pointers!).

WDex Sisters of Battle 3rd ed. (Circa 2001 Chapter Approved I think) doesn't mention her by name but does mention the ‘only one has fallen’.

 Lynata wrote:
PS: Sorry for the nitpicking - but whilst I have come to terms with deviating fluff in other sources, I'm interested in any discussion about GW fluff being as accurate as possible

Same here. I have both a large collection of hard copies and digital copies (Which are on my Table Compy. Which is also pack away) that cover much of 40k’s fluff.
I tried to source everything so sorry if I’m wrong. This was all from memory.

Two more final things though, it’s said a few times (C: WH & Dark Heresy immediately come to mind) in which it’s said that the Sisters of Battle are the best recognised aspect of the Ecclesiarchy.
Exemplifying the safety and security of the church to the common people. It’s hard to be recognised or even known if the total number of Sisters is less than even the number of worlds in the Imperium, let alone to be so recognised that they are what first comes to the mind of the public.
Also, on the note about falling. Doesn’t the new WDex mention that fallen Sisters are primary victims, I mean pilots of the Penitent Engines? Or am I mistaken with hyperbole?

With regards to the age of sisters. I would assume that since the Ecclesiarchy shells out for Bolters and Power Armour for the sisters, I'd put money on them paying out for haven't therapies as well.
So I would expect many sisters would be older than they would appear.

 Eetion wrote:
So I would expect many sisters would be older than they would appear.

Sure, some veterans may well be older than they look. A valued servant of the Ecclesiarchy does get access to different gifts if she's deemed too important to lose to old age at 90. But the attrition rate is also pretty high in the different major Orders - it would have to be if they're said to have anywhere from a few hundred Sisters when low up to 6 or 7 thousand when recruitment has been good and combat losses low.

edit: besides, with the focus on humility and self-sacrifice I'd expect most Sisters wouldn't readily accept life-extending cures. At least not without a good enough reason to convince them it's not hubris or self-aggrandisement of some sort but actually greater service to the Emperor.

Spetulhu wrote:Sure, some veterans may well be older than they look. A valued servant of the Ecclesiarchy does get access to different gifts if she's deemed too important to lose to old age at 90. But the attrition rate is also pretty high in the different major Orders - it would have to be if they're said to have anywhere from a few hundred Sisters when low up to 6 or 7 thousand when recruitment has been good and combat losses low.
edit: besides, with the focus on humility and self-sacrifice I'd expect most Sisters wouldn't readily accept life-extending cures. At least not without a good enough reason to convince them it's not hubris or self-aggrandisement of some sort but actually greater service to the Emperor.

Given how juvenat treatments have been described as being a thing of nobility and Inquisitors (and perhaps an innate genetical bonus for the Space Marines, explaining their tripled lifespans), I always assumed it's a complicated process not granted to anyone, too. On the other hand, the value of her training, experience and equipment is considerable. So I think it's probably something they get scheduled for if they survive the first 10-20 years or so in an effort to keep them at their prime. Not handed to anyone, but after the individual has proven their worth in combat to receive this "gift".

As for whether a Sister would accept such a treatment or not, it may not be a matter of volunteering. They do what they're told - and any critical thought might easily be silenced with the idea that a Sister Militant should always keep her body in a condition to operate at maximum efficiency on the battlefield. In this sense, juvenation treatments are no different from, say, cybernetics (which we know they use, see the Canoness mini), a Hospitaller treating their wounds, or indeed the very armour they wear. Just another piece of human technology sanctioned for the holy cause. A Battle Sister's destiny should lie in martyrdom through battle.

Kettu wrote:I think this was a WD article back in 3rd ed or even the Fanatic Magazine. I honestly can't recall at this point and all my books are packed away at the moment ready for moving.

Damn. If you ever unpack them, throw me a PM. I'm on a continuous hunt for any GW-sourced Sisters fluff.

Kettu wrote:This is one of the annoying things about the Sisters. I think pretty much everyone in GW has their own idea and because no official figures are ever given every individual can make their own statements.
Pre-Blood of Martyrs the entire Calixis Sector had fifty Sisters Militant, one Dormitory of Sisters Hospitaller (On a world far away from anything and everything) and maybe three or four Sisters Famulous in total with any Sister PCs generally understood as being brought in from external sources by Inquisitors.
This was changed as now the Shrine World has Sisters Militant, smaller forces of several Orders operate across the Sector and most the Eccles staff now have bodyguards.

Yeah, that's one reason for why I like to stick to GW core studio sources - more consistency. Dark Heresy was written by Black Industries first, then passed on to FFG. The 50 Sisters Militant for Calixis - at the time of the rulebook's release lauded as something extraordinary which caused a lot of nobles to worry about why they were there - is quite close to what I'm getting from the studio sources. Suddenly, FFG drops Blood of Martyrs, and SoB numbers centuplicate. If we're going by BoM in combination with the numbers of the 2E Codex, the Adepta Sororitas have amassed a whopping 30%(!) of the military might of one of the six(!) Major Orders in the Calixis Sector ... and that's just one of the new bases that suddenly popped up in that book!

I mean, I get that they likely did this to allow for players having more freedom of choice (similar to how their Only War invented female Vostroyan First Born), but ... eh, still not a fan of what I deem to be unnecessary conflicts. Next to FFG suddenly turning Acts of Faith into some weird space magic with Sisters shooting beams of light out of their eyes, this is one of the reasons for why I was rather disappointed in that book.

Kettu wrote:There are many sources where Sisters are not mentioned at all even though they should be there, your Cityfight example is a good one. Allegedly Jes Goodwin said that at one point for a few years post codex Witchhunters and its poor sales the Sisters were affectively considered removed as a force as any future development would be rather major so it was kind of a case of 'out of sight, out of mind'. Quote notwithstanding, this notion has been, to a degree, confirmed by many other lower sources and even JJ was quoted at one point saying that Sisters are not high on their priorities or words to that effect. If this is the case it does lend support to the idea of the general lack of sisters from the fluff is more akin to lack of PDF from fluff, not a faction, not worth mentioning.

I dunno - even if that was the case, it wouldn't really make sense to omit them from the fluff. Even if you one wouldn't care for selling them, why delete an established background element? It'd be similar to not mentioning the Adeptus Custodes when talking about the Imperial Palace. Besides, in the Codex Cityfight, they did mention the Priests.
And Codex Cityfight came out only months after the Armageddon 3 campaign, where the Sisters were featured strongly in both White Dwarf as well as the campaign website. We got quite a lot of new fluff from this event!

To me, it makes sense if we consider that not every cathedral has its own squad of Battle Sisters to guard it. And the wording in the Codex would allow for this interpretation:
"Every major world in the Imperium belongs to one of the Cardinal Dioceses, and will therefore host at least one Ecclesiarchal cathedral and a multitude of servants, dignitaries, and clerics. Such a concentration of the Ecclesiarchy's power must be defended, and so a significant force of battle sisters will be present at many such sites."
- 3E C:WH

Kettu wrote:With Wars of Faith, it's been said (C: WH I Believe) that the Sisters Militant form the primary force. Separate sources have mentioned Frateris Militia already skirt the Decree Passive and the Ecclesiarch needs something easily directed and commanded. Also, as Wars of Faith are Ecclesiarchy run affairs they don't want external forces involved like the Guard. I also can't Imagine the Adeptus Administratum allowing their use like that unless there was a major objective that interested them.

""Wars of Faith are sometimes assisted by the forces of the other High Lords and even the armies of the Imperial Guard."
"When a War of Faith is declared, thousands of Frateris Militia will assemble with the ranks of the Battle Sisters and Imperial Guard, eagier to prove their dedication to the Emperor."
- 2E C:SoB

Wars of Faith are not a big problem for the Ecclesiarchy since they need to be sanctioned by the High Lords - indeed, once the votes are in, it is generally expected that the faithful rise up to do the holy work of slaying the Emperor's enemies. This includes individual Guard regiments or Navy squadrons, either as an official attachment to the endeavour as commanded by Sectorum Command or in the form of unofficial aid, caused by a Confessor successfully motivating the unit's commanding officer into joining the cause. As per Imperial Decree, each regiment of the Guard has at least one Confessor attached to it (see 5E C:IG), so the Ecclesiarchy has a certain amount of "shadowy" influence over other military arms of the IoM.
The really important thing is that it has to be the Sisters of Battle that provide a War of Faith's standing forces so as to not break the Decree Passive, but with the Frateris Militia who are not considered "standing" (see 3E C:WH) and the Imperial Guard who are not considered to be under official Ecclesiarchal command, this is really just what it says on the paper.

Kettu wrote:The Navy parts come from Battle Fleet Gothic and Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd ed. Pilgrimage Lanes are in the interest of the Ecclesiarchy and only of tertiary importance to the Navy itself. Sisters excel as guards and boarding parties on Navy vessels and so the Navy sees it as acceptable trade to then also include the Pilgrimage lanes in their patrol routes.

I know the pilgrim route protection, but I would assume this is referring to a couple Sisters on a pilgrim ship, rather than a vessel of the Navy.
I've read the BFG books - are you sure it was referring to Navy warships, and entire boarding parties? Do you recall which source this was in?

As far as the Navy is concerned, I've always taken the Orders Famulous to be most important due to their skills in acting as liaison/translator and deciphering communications - this is discussed in both the 2E Codex as well as the WD Liber Sororitas.

Kettu wrote:As for inter-order communication and networking, this is a case of new fluff directly conflicting with old fluff. Dark Heresy, pretty much the only real in depth exploration of the Sisterhood since 2nd ed makes it clear that Sisters tend to transfer between Orders (Including non-militant/militant x-overs) two or more times during their life and cooperation between orders is common. In fact that the only real reason the Sisterhood orders don't communicate more is due to rarely meeting each other. This is also partially supported early in BL's Faith and Fire.

The transfer between Orders is not actually a conflict - this bit of fluff was already contained in the Liber Sororitas that was published by GW around the 3E WH Codex. Transferring in and out of one Order is another thing as two Orders sharing one roof, though.

I should point out (again) that I generally don't put much faith (doh-hoh) in Dark Heresy and other outsourced products, though. Apart from the aforementioned "jumping numbers" phenomena and the space magic, Dark Heresy disqualified itself the moment it wanted to tell me that the Sisters are using "civilian bolters". Nope, I think I'll rather stick to GW's own fluff, where the Sisters are a bit more awesome.

Kettu wrote:If you have a solitary Sister guarding a tiny, forgotten shrine then where are they on every single major world with a Church? If the Sisterhood is actually tiny and can't spare the woman-power, then why have one at a tiny forgotten shrine?

I think it actually fits to the whole "lololreligion/politics/laws" thing that is part of 40k's fluff. It does not have to make sense. See the Decree Passive as another example.
A church is, ultimately, just a church. Some building with priests and worshippers. There are millions like it all across the Imperium. It might be special somehow, but it does not have to.
So, for the cases where you have a lone Sister guarding a shrine, I'd simply assume it is special somehow, in that it is a place where something special happened, or where a famous saint lies buried, or that contains a relic. All of this could apply to a church as well, but it does not have to.

Alternatively, the Sister might be all that's left from an entire Mission, with most of her Sisters having died over the decades. Maybe the Sororitas' scribes made an Administratum-style error and only assign one Novice per 20 years to that convent, or they simply think that the (wo)manpower is more useful elsewhere without wanting to give up the token support for this holy site, even though its value has diminshed over the past millennia.
Really, I think there's a lot of ways to explain it - and it's actually fun to coming up with them.

Kettu wrote:WDex Sisters of Battle 3rd ed. (Circa 2001 Chapter Approved I think) doesn't mention her by name but does mention the ‘only one has fallen’.

Are you sure? I checked, and there's nothing like that. Indeed, its fluff states the opposite ("The Sisters are incorruptible warriors, each dedicating her life to penitent worship and the rigorous training of mind, body and spirit.")
Perhaps you were referencing the flawed Lexicanum wiki article, which falsely claimed such a statement was contained in the 3E Codex.

I've been looking for such references myself, as I think Miriael actually makes a nice outside addition to GW fluff. I'm just saying that every source I've read so far said differently, in spite of ongoing claims from parts of the wider 40k community.

Kettu wrote:I tried to source everything so sorry if I’m wrong. This was all from memory.

No worries - there's actually a lot of fluff on the Sisters (it's just all over the place!), so it can become hard to remember details. I'm occasionally misremembering myself, which is why I'm trying to keep all my sources close at hand.

Kettu wrote:Two more final things though, it’s said a few times (C: WH & Dark Heresy immediately come to mind) in which it’s said that the Sisters of Battle are the best recognised aspect of the Ecclesiarchy.
Exemplifying the safety and security of the church to the common people. It’s hard to be recognised or even known if the total number of Sisters is less than even the number of worlds in the Imperium, let alone to be so recognised that they are what first comes to the mind of the public.

Well, not best recognised, but "most strongly identified with the incontrovertible power of the Ecclesiarchy", to quote from C:WH.
I would say this is the result of two things - one, the propaganda, and two, that the Sisters apparently "get around" much more than the Space Marines, in spite of being the smaller force. You have Sororitas travelling with pilgrims, escorting an important Cardinal on his tour through the entire Sector, enforcing tax collections (where deemed necessary), and checking the genetic purity of Imperial citizens - all this in addition to the actual large-scale purges and Inquisitorial interventions. The Average Imperial Joe may only see a Battle Sister once or twice in his life ... but it sure would be hard to forget a squad of power-armoured angels who act in such a stern and direct manner and are, apparently, unafraid of anyone!

Kettu wrote:Also, on the note about falling. Doesn’t the new WDex mention that fallen Sisters are primary victims, I mean pilots of the Penitent Engines? Or am I mistaken with hyperbole?

Hmm, the wording is:
"Many of the unfortunates sentenced to pilot a Penitent Engine were once members of the Ecclesiarchy; Priests fallen from grace or Battle Sisters who have, through failure of duty or faith, caused the deaths of their fellows."
I would interpret this more as Sisters who got careless, (too) reckless or scared during battle, resulting in deaths in their squad that could have otherwise been prevented.

Lynata, I've given you the source for that "only sister ever fallen" before thing-- a story called The Invitation, by Dan Abnett. First appeared in White Dwarf though I forgot which one exactly, was later included in an anthology, Tales From the Dark Millennium.

I can't recall you ever citing that Sabertooth Games story towards me - though I'm sceptical chiefly because I found it myself, and have linked it on Dakka in the past.
I've researched Miriael's background extensively, and though I maintain that the fluff that actually got published is awesome, there is sadly a lot of untrue things that have been propagated amongst the fandom.

I hope you forgive me if I'm taking unsourced statements with a grain of salt, even though forgetting the issue number is a thing that can happen to anyone. I've simply read too many statements that later turned out as incorrect in the past (see my comment regarding Lexicanum - and that one even claimed a page number!), hence I always check things up myself. 's just how I roll these days, and this self-imposed policy has served me well in maintaining a consistent experience of GW's fluff.

We have both cited it in the past. but you seemed confused about where the lore came from when I made that post.

I'll admit that I didn't read every word of every post, but I skimmed through and didn't see a mention of this.

In regards to question 4, in Cain's Last Stand, Sister Julien is observed returning from a midnight tryst with Brasker. Although Cain has never heard of a Sister engaging in carnal relations with someone, Amberley Vail mentions in the footnote that Sisters aren't expressly forbidden to have sexual relationships, only that few of them do. Also in that book, several of the novitiate Sisters are seen to be eyeballing some (Guardsmen, I believe?) in a manner not unlike wistful teenage girls.

The Cain books are a pretty poor source of Sororitas lore in my view. Cain himself is admittedly and horrendously biased, and is prone to view the worst in every action the Sisters take, a fact which both he and Vail openly admit to.

 Melissia wrote:
The Cain books are a pretty poor source of Sororitas lore in my view. Cain himself is admittedly and horrendously biased, and is prone to view the worst in every action the Sisters take, a fact which both he and Vail openly admit to.

True, at least as far as fanaticism is concerned. Did you mean Vail openly admits that he is biased, or that she is? I didn't think Amberley had the same bias that Cain does. In any event, neither of these two mentions from Cain's Last Stand portray the Sisters in a particularly negative light. They serve to humanize them and make them more identifiable as characters, I think. (I certainly like Julien as a character at any rate.) The sisters as a whole come out of Cain's Last Stand looking pretty good, in my view. The Cain books get a lot of boos and hisses when used as references for Sisters of Battle questions because of Cain's prejudice towards them, but to be totally fair, the character is fairly critical of most factions, including the AdMech, the Guard, the Ecclesiarchy, the Administratum, and the Inquisition. He's twice as hard on PDF forces as he ever is on the sisters.

Of course, the Cain books are only reliable insomuch as any BL author's books are, but I still bring it up because the Sisters have comparatively fewer sources to choose from. I think that they can be used to draw certain conclusions, as long as you correct your perspective to account for the skewed view of the in-setting author.

(As a side note, I've often thought that Mitchell writes the rough drafts without the footnotes, and has someone else proofread them. Wherever his proofreader points out something inconsistent, unclear, or that needs correction, he comes back and has Amberley Vail annotate the anomaly, which not only serves to make his mistakes look intentional, but to inject some additional humor into the books.)

Vail notes that he's biased.

Regardless, I didn't like Julien's portrayal. It felt too out of character for a Sororitas. Too... normal, I suppose the term I'd use would be. Too "human" to use your terms. Mitchel basically appears to have thought "How can I create a likable Sororitas. I know, let's make her drink, smoke, play cards, and have casual sex!", and that doesn't really work well at all. Sororitas are human and have varying personalities, this is true... but they do NOT share our modern culture, at all. They have a culture unique to themselves that rejects the excesses of society and is based on discipline, prayer, and self-denial, that is in many ways as alien to us as Tau culture.

Julien was... well, she was a guardswoman wearing Sororitas robes. It had me facepalming during the early part of the story, before he seemed to realize "wait, she's a Sororitas, not a guardswoman, I should stop doing this already".

Old enough to serve the Grey Knights' Buffalo Bill fetish.

 Melissia wrote:
Vail notes that he's biased.

Regardless, I didn't like Julien's portrayal. It felt too out of character for a Sororitas. Too... normal, I suppose the term I'd use would be. Too "human" to use your terms. Mitchel basically appears to have thought "How can I create a likable Sororitas. I know, let's make her drink, smoke, play cards, and have casual sex!", and that doesn't really work well at all. Sororitas are human and have varying personalities, this is true... but they do NOT share our modern culture, at all. They have a culture unique to themselves that rejects the excesses of society and is based on discipline, prayer, and self-denial, that is in many ways as alien to us as Tau culture.

Julien was... well, she was a guardswoman wearing Sororitas robes. It had me facepalming during the early part of the story, before he seemed to realize "wait, she's a Sororitas, not a guardswoman, I should stop doing this already".

I didn't mind Julien that much. She did say enough Sororitas-y things (like when she says that the Emperor must be watching over Cain) to not be completely unconvincing. Think she was an attempt at a jaded, "too old for this gak" sotra character, it's just that this doesn't really work so well with a Sister, so it comes off as odd.

The ones that annoyed me were the Sisters in the book before that, the ones who get duped by the Inquisitor. They're portrayed as incompetent, with one squad charging blindly and alone into a Tyranid swarm, and all of them being utterly played by an Inquisitor. They're pretty much there so the story can say "Oh, look at these zealous idiots. Cain's way of thinking is so much better".

Just didn't feel it was a good portrayal of them at all.

Jimsolo wrote:Of course, the Cain books are only reliable insomuch as any BL author's books are, but I still bring it up because the Sisters have comparatively fewer sources to choose from. I think that they can be used to draw certain conclusions, as long as you correct your perspective to account for the skewed view of the in-setting author.

Well, it could be argued that some authors' ideas are harmful to the public perception of the Sororitas, simply because your average reader doesn't know where it conflicts with studio fluff.

For example, just to point out some of the glaring contradictions between that Cain novel and Codex material:
- the Schola Progenium is mixed-gender in one, but practices complete segregation of the sexes in the other
- the teachers are described as normal people from several organisations in one, but Ecclesiarchal Drill-Abbots who maintain a "strict and puritan" lifestyle in the other
- one describes Sororitas Novices as normal Schola classes, when the other clarifies that the novitiate does not begin until after a future Sister transfers out of the Schola and into a Sororitas training facility operated by the Orders Famulous (and it's similar for Commissars and Storm Troopers - I suppose Mitchell simply thought it'd be "cooler" if they'd all train together?)

Indeed, it could be argued that Cain himself should not exist, if we go by GW fluff. No way would you become a Commissar without being affected by the Schola's indoctrination and a suitable display of a strong martial mind throughout your entire childhoold, being shoved from one test and exercise to another. I don't know if Mitchell perhaps thought that Commissars are conscripted from amongst all the progena without much screening, and that the Schola trains exclusively military personnel, but there's a reason the vast majority of progena end up as civilian clerks - in GW's background, anyways.
It just seems to me as if he either didn't read much from the established background on the Schola Progenium, or that he simply didn't care because he liked his idea more.

Of course, given how the franchise is handled, the novels are not "wrong" in the vision they propagate - they are simply sufficiently different to kill off compatibility. Ultimately, every one of us must make their own choice on what fluff they prefer, which is why (imho) it's certainly fine to get mentioned if these contradictions are pointed out to unwary readers.
I deem this example problematic chiefly because the Cain novels seem to be more popular and thus more widely known than the actual GW fluff, and thus influences the Sisters' perception amongst fans away from hardcore warrior nuns towards more ordinary people - who apparently even can get laid. Thanks, Mr. Mitchell, as if the images on 4chan wouldn't be enough.

ThePrimordial wrote:
1.How old is the average SOB?
2.Is there a reason they seem to all have white hair?
3.How many of them are there at a time?
4.Are they allowed to have any kind of sexual interaction what so ever?
5.Have there ever been instances of large groups of sisters falling to chaos?
6.Do they have any modification once so ever to their physiology?
7.I know Space Marines due to some being old enough to understand the emperor wasn't the CREATOR GOD despite being one don't typically buy completely into the imperial cult but are certain sisters intelligent enough to know?
The reason I ask is because I liked the feel of mildly individually powerful warrior nuns and I want some questions answered and these are the biggest ones. Thanks

1. Depends entirely on what's going on in the galaxy at large. In times of high conflict, and thus high body-count, the average age of a Sister is going to drop as the casualties mount and the Initiates are pushed through training. The "average" Sister is anywhere from her 20s to middle-aged, not counting the few leaders who may be centuries old, and the teenaged Novitiates. Also going to depend on which Order she is a member of. Orders Famulous and Hospitaller suffer fewer casualties than do the Orders Militant.

2. Just one Order, as mentioned elsewhere, is really known for this.

3. Depends on who's fluff you read, but the studio fluff indicates that there are fewer Sisters than there are Space Marines.

4. Not by most interpretations of studio fluff. They're patterned after Catholic nuns, who take vows of chastity and celibacy. It's also supported by the "cleave only unto the Emperor" quote that gets tossed around in a few sources (which is a reference to a Biblical quote that pertains to sexual fidelity between married couples).

5. Not officially. BL fluff varies.

6. Not of the sort that Space Marines get, no. Before injury may require augmetic reconstruction, they are 100% pure human.

7. The Sisters venerate the God-Emperor as, well, the God-Emperor. I don't believe that any of them, of any rank, consider him "just a man". They may know of his actions during the Great Crusade and his fight with Horus and all of that, but that in no way reduces his divinity to their point of view. Also, it bears noting that there are no non-mythical records of that time in the Imperium. The one guy that could possibly remember it, Bjorn the Fell-Handed, wasn't present for most of that and is pretty damn senile at this point. The Sisterhood is, in its entirety, firmly in the camp of the Ecclesiarchy, and venerate the God-Emperor as a divine force.