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I've heard people on various Warhammer boards say that An'ggrath is probably quite a bit stronger than Angron. There seems to be a lot of misconception around this and a common thing I see come up is that Sanguinius killed a bloodthirster. That was not a normal bloodthirster it was king of the bloodthirsters (there are bits of conflicting fluff but Ka'Bandha is definitely on par with An'ggrath) and though Sanguinius is one of the strongest primarchs he was tired and worn from days upon days of fighting alone. I wanted to see what the general opinion is regarding the identity of the dark gods mightiest servants.

I'd generally regard it as a Daemon Primarch being superior to a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon.

A Primarch (as indicated by Sanguinius) is arguably about even - if not superior - to a Greater Daemon before even being 'promoted' to Daemonhood.
Similarly, Daemonic Angron is the size of a Warhound and has a retinue of 12(?) Bloodthirsters: further suggesting his superiority.

So yeah, Daemon Primarch's are most likely superior to Greater Daemons.

However, supposedly Doombread is the greatest of Khorne's servants, but was banished by the Emperor when he boarded the Vengeful Spirit (in old fluff at least).

The thing is, not all Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are equal. There are some exceptions that are considerably stronger than their brethren, so you will get outliers like Skarbrand or M'kachen that can easily hold their own.

With that said - against a "standard" Greater Daemon/Prince, a Daemon Primarch would come out on top every time. The Sanguinius example shows us that Primarchs and Greater Daemons aren't too far removed from one another, as he had both lost to and beaten the very same Bloodthirster after a period of time. We are also told that Daemon Primarchs are stronger than they were before.

Primarchs are flesh and blood. Demon princes have shed their motal shell. From the HH series we know that the primarchs are warp energy made manifest into that same flesh and blood.

When a primarch becomes a demon prince they too shed their mortal shell but their essence is already among the most powerful warp entity. This, in my opinion, is what places them above most if not all greater demons and certainly other mortals elevated to princedom.

Well, on the tabletop, I believe Angrath is stronger than Daemon Prince Angron. The latter model is kinda out of date, though, far as I know.

People I've said and I'll keep saying: Ka"Bandha (the bloodthirster Sanguinius fought) is a couple dozen times more powerful than a normal bloodthirster. You guys seem to forget or ignore this.
Angron as a daemon primarch should be magnitudes more powerful than An"ggrath stat wise but because An'ggrath is a FW creation they don't have to hold back.

 Just Dave wrote:
However, supposedly Doombread is the greatest of Khorne's servants, but was banished by the Emperor when he boarded the Vengeful Spirit (in old fluff at least).

Exactly nothing states that Doombreed is the greatest of Khorne's servants. Not Liber Chaotica, not the 2e Chaos codex, not the 4e Chaos Marine codex.

Both the Space Wolves 5e codex and The Emperor's Gift state that Angron is first of all Khorne's servants, and get this, the twelve Bloodthirsters are said to be the mightiest of their kind.

Daemon Primarchs are stronger than Greater Daemons, and I'd wage that is the case all of the time. Lorgar, back when he was still bitch!Lorgar, beat An'ggrath in martial combat.

The Emperor's Gift all but explicitly confirms that the Daemon Primarchs are the most powerful Daemons in existence: Angron is referred to as one of the six mightiest Daemons. There are six Daemon Primarchs. Oh yeah.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Angron is referred to as one of the six mightiest Daemons. There are six Daemon Primarchs. Oh yeah.

Are you sure about that? It wasn't just a reference to 6 being Khorne's holy number, or were other non-Khorne daemons among this 6 mentioned?

 Super Ready wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Angron is referred to as one of the six mightiest Daemons. There are six Daemon Primarchs. Oh yeah.

Are you sure about that? It wasn't just a reference to 6 being Khorne's holy number, or were other non-Khorne daemons among this 6 mentioned?

Actually isn't Khorne's holy number 8? Tzeentch took 9. Gave Nurgle 7 since he wanted him to get the lowest number but Slaanesh popped up so Slaanesh got a 6.

The numbers are: khorne-8, tzeentch-9, nurgle-7 and slaanesh is 6 exactly as start trotter explained.

 Just Dave wrote:


However, supposedly Doombread is the greatest of Khorne's servants, but was banished by the Emperor when he boarded the Vengeful Spirit (in old fluff at least).

I see...

just to remember with the doombreed arguement as well he was just a normal human before assesion and so i would say he is going to be quite below that of a primarch.
Also i would add to the arguement that how powerful a greater deamon is can depend on how much favour its god is showing it at that moment in time and other factors effecting the warp or the matrial universe at the time.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Exactly nothing states that Doombreed is the greatest of Khorne's servants. Not Liber Chaotica, not the 2e Chaos codex, not the 4e Chaos Marine codex.

Both the Space Wolves 5e codex and The Emperor's Gift state that Angron is first of all Khorne's servants, and get this, the twelve Bloodthirsters are said to be the mightiest of their kind.

Daemon Primarchs are stronger than Greater Daemons, and I'd wage that is the case all of the time. Lorgar, back when he was still bitch!Lorgar, beat An'ggrath in martial combat.

The Emperor's Gift all but explicitly confirms that the Daemon Primarchs are the most powerful Daemons in existence: Angron is referred to as one of the six mightiest Daemons. There are six Daemon Primarchs. Oh yeah.

So then, if we say that Mortarion (A Daemon Primarch) is one of the 6 most powerful Daemons in existence, does that make Draigo - pre-Supreme Grand Master - their equal?

Iranna.

 toumas wrote:
just to remember with the doombreed arguement as well he was just a normal human before assesion and so i would say he is going to be quite below that of a primarch.

Although he ascended a long time before any Primarch did. Even though time doesn't flow the same way in the Warp as the material plane he is still 'older'. By a long way.

And age is typically synonymous with power when it comes to Daemons.

 Iranna wrote:


So then, if we say that Mortarion (A Daemon Primarch) is one of the 6 most powerful Daemons in existence, does that make Draigo - pre-Supreme Grand Master - their equal?

Iranna.

Of course not.

It makes him their superior.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Iranna wrote:


So then, if we say that Mortarion (A Daemon Primarch) is one of the 6 most powerful Daemons in existence, does that make Draigo - pre-Supreme Grand Master - their equal?

Iranna.

Of course not.

It makes him their superior.

Seems a little known fact that Draigo beat Mortarion with the aid of A LOT of paladins. And it was all of them vs Mortarion...

Pretty sure that's the case, and if not, then it's a bit silly and stupid


Von Chogg

 Von Chogg wrote:

Seems a little known fact that Draigo beat Mortarion with the aid of A LOT of paladins. And it was all of them vs Mortarion...

Nope.

"Alone and unaided" are the exact words used.

Well an Inquisitor beat An'ggrath, and Mephiston beat Doombreed, so they can't be all that powerful.

ThePrimordial wrote:
People I've said and I'll keep saying: Ka"Bandha (the bloodthirster Sanguinius fought) is a couple dozen times more powerful than a normal bloodthirster. You guys seem to forget or ignore this.

Because you made that up?

Ka'Banha may have been stronger than an average Bloodthirser, but we can only speculate on exactly how much stronger.

Actually we don't need to speculate.

He is directly referred to as Khorne's "mightiest Bloodthirster".

So basically, he contests that role with An'ggrath.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually we don't need to speculate.

He is directly referred to as Khorne's "mightiest Bloodthirster".

So basically, he contests that role with An'ggrath.

And mightiest Bloodthirsters are couple of dozen times stronger than the regular ones? And not only 1.5 times or four times stronger?

 1hadhq wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:


However, supposedly Doombread is the greatest of Khorne's servants, but was banished by the Emperor when he boarded the Vengeful Spirit (in old fluff at least).

I see...

Damn, beaten to it

I think the lesson learnt here is that GW's fluff and rules are very inconsistent. My personal opinion is that Daemon Primarch's should be the top of the pile. However as always the inconsistency continues with Battle of the Fang, and Magnus getting whooped by a handful of wolves, at least Angron took a whole Brotherhood of GK Terminators.

Magnus was bleeding power by the time the Wolves made any real progress towards fighting him, though yeah, that fight was bad.

 Crimson wrote:
And mightiest Bloodthirsters are couple of dozen times stronger than the regular ones? And not only 1.5 times or four times stronger?

Well considering the mightiest Bloodthirsters are the size of Warhound Titans and can cut them to pieces easily...

Wherever you would place that.

 Crimson wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:
People I've said and I'll keep saying: Ka"Bandha (the bloodthirster Sanguinius fought) is a couple dozen times more powerful than a normal bloodthirster. You guys seem to forget or ignore this.

Because you made that up?

Ka'Banha may have been stronger than an average Bloodthirser, but we can only speculate on exactly how much stronger.

You seem to awfully aggressive and confident for apparently having no understanding of the fluff surrounding the character, he's directly stated to be the "king of the bloodthirsters". And yeah given the fact that he can stand up to to Sanguinius who is single handedly tearing the armies of chaos a new one while seemingly not tiring. That seems to be quite a bit above what a normal bloodthirster would not be torn apart by, let alone break the legs of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Magnus was bleeding power by the time the Wolves made any real progress towards fighting him, though yeah, that fight was bad.

 Crimson wrote:
And mightiest Bloodthirsters are couple of dozen times stronger than the regular ones? And not only 1.5 times or four times stronger?

Well considering the mightiest Bloodthirsters are the size of Warhound Titans and can cut them to pieces easily...

Wherever you would place that.

Thanks for helping, I appreciate it .

ThePrimordial wrote:

You seem to awfully aggressive and confident for apparently having no understanding of the fluff surrounding the character, he's directly stated to be the "king of the bloodthirsters". And yeah given the fact that he can stand up to to Sanguinius who is single handedly tearing the armies of chaos a new one while seemingly not tiring. That seems to be quite a bit above what a normal bloodthirster would not be torn apart by, let alone break the legs of.

And in earlier thread I've seen Sanguinius defeating this daemon being proof how tough Sanguinius was. And now the Bloodthirster standing up to Sanguinius is used as proof how tough said Thirster was... Seems pretty circular to me. But whatever.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually we don't need to speculate.

He is directly referred to as Khorne's "mightiest Bloodthirster".

So basically, he contests that role with An'ggrath.

I'd say An'ggrath beats him out, given that An'ggrath usually destroys everything when he shows up, but Ka'Bandha only embarrasses himself every time he appears.

As for Doombreed, I think too many people have been reading his 1d4chan page and got caught up in the whole Genghis *MOTHERFETHING* Khan *on fire* thing.

On the other hand, An'ggrath was made into a prison bitch by Lorgar in Aurelian.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
On the other hand, An'ggrath was made into a prison bitch by Lorgar in Aurelian.

On the other hand, Ka'Bandha has never won a single battle, ever.

Broke Sangy's legs, the Blood Angels wrecked his army and forced him to retreat. Showed up at Terra, got pimp smacked like a two year old taking on the playground bully. Tried again, got pile drived from FREAKING ORBIT.

No wonder why Khorne ignores him in favor of Skarbrand and An'ggrath now.

But he did manage to cripple Sanguinius.

An'ggrath was nancied by a weaker Primarch.

And then he got pile drived from orbit and his daemonic legion humiliated. Accomplishing precisely nothing.

An'ggrath punched Vraks' face in.

It seems GW and FW's current stance is more towards Skarbrand and An'Ggrath being the greatest bloodthirsters, while the Black Library favors Ka'Bandha.

Where does Kyras and the Malefactor stand anyway?