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Does anyone else thing that the heldrake would be allot more fair if it were subject to grounding checks? It already gets to vector strike as if it were a FMC, why not give it the one drawback FMC's have?

I know it would make it a little over costed, but I'd also happily let it ht back in CC with its vector profile if it had to take grounding checks, (and of course, not be locked in the combat if it lived)

Why the hell isn't that thing a flying monsterous creature already?

The solution is simple: make the flamer hull-mounted (like it is on the model) and require the entire template to be placed within the weapon's firing arc.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Why the hell isn't that thing a flying monsterous creature already?

I imagine it is because as a vehicle it can be taken out in one hit if the shooting player is lucky. If it was an FMC that wouldn't be possible except by force weapons (unless it had a T of 5 or less which would be doubtful imo).

I think making the drake an FMC with T6 and 3 or 4 wounds plus its 5++ would be OK.

Yeah with a 360 tolerant flamer, there's just no where to hide.

sam918 wrote:
Yeah with a 360 tolerant flamer, there's just no where to hide.

Except in metal boxes, like a coward, A FOOL! Until they...they take away your metal boxes.

Just wait untill more codexes come out they will get better and Chaos will suck again. Tau has huge anti flyer potental and eldar can run then shoot.

Being AV 11, but otherwise unchanged (even the firing arch, which sort of makes sense, what with the neck), would go a long way to balancing the Helldrake.

sam918 wrote:
Yeah with a 360 tolerant flamer, there's just no where to hide.

I would say that the flamer isn't tolerant at all! Completely intolerant actually!

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

sam918 wrote:
Yeah with a 360 tolerant flamer, there's just no where to hide.

I would say that the flamer isn't tolerant at all! Completely intolerant actually!

Gosh, didn't even realise until you pointed that out.

It wouldn't fit to be an FMC. Its a demon engine. Making it a FMC would go against the fluff a bit and then what would become of maulerfiends and the like? Just bump up the points a little, that's all thats required.

I think fixing it to AV11 would be the better fix honestly. Right now the problem most lists have with it is how reliable it is to kill any infantry unit it likes first turn it arrives. Making it AV11 means that Str 6 and 7 Interceptor has a better chance of at least doing enough to the Helldrake for it's wielder to play it with tactics and allowing proper tactics to try to keep squads safer from its flames.

How about no Torrent?

Lucarikx

I don't know if anyone have noticed it, but the problem is not the Heldrake, but the baleflamer. You can make the baleflamer AP4 and a +30 points upgrade, and the Heldrake is fixed.

I'm not sure if the lack of Torrent would affect it much. It is, as a Flier, pretty fast and mobile.

I think AV 11/11/10 and/or the removal of It Will Not Die! would be a good fix.

Maybe just a points hike to 215?

I'm completely cool with paying 15-30 points for the baleflamer. Just as long as Riptides go up to ~200ish points base,wraithlords jumping to about the same price, and every single elder model with a shuriken weapon going up by 2-3 points for infantry, and vehicles by 10.

I'll never say drakes are weak. EVER. But there are entirely feasible ways to dispose of it. Rather than pulling a Cruddace and nerfing something into the ground because you don't like it, actually take your anti-flier units and/or bring your own fliers, which, in my experience, my drake has issues with bringing down. Plus, aside from 'drakes, what the heck else does the CSM codex have with any potential to kill anything without dishing out a ridiculous amount of points to make it happen?

I think 170 points is fine for the heldrake + Baleflamer. The Vendetta is actually capable of killing other fliers and terminators, has the same armor, a transport capacity, and is a good 50 points less. Yet people have since stopped attempting to fix it.

So how about we just bring some AA to the fight?

Trying to justify the price of the Heldrake by pointing to the other most undercosted flier in the game doesn't make much sense.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I don't know if anyone have noticed it, but the problem is not the Heldrake, but the baleflamer. You can make the baleflamer AP4 and a +30 points upgrade, and the Heldrake is fixed.

This Makes the Heldrakes completely Useless, it's not a fix.


Either making it 11/11/10 or making the Baleflamer a +25-30 point upgrade would go a long way in balancing it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Trying to justify the price of the Heldrake by pointing to the other most undercosted flier in the game doesn't make much sense.

I'm not trying to justify the cost, I'm trying to justify not raising the price because you don't happen to compensate for it. It doesn't matter if the Heldrake is 10 points or 300 points. If you bring the proper tools to handle it, you don't have to worry about the heldrake devaastating huge swaths of your army because you forgot to bring a quadgun or flier of your own.

I havent let my mates drake survive a single game yet. Ever.

A couple months back there was a tournament here in Buffalo. The winner took a single Heldrake. Afterwards his biggest opponent ranted in his face for two hours about how the Heldrake is broken (this was right after the FAQ that made the Baleflamer a Torrent turret). Upon hearing this I suggested the following changes to the CSM player:
Drop points to 70 points per model
Squadron of 1-3 Heldrakes.

 McNinja wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Trying to justify the price of the Heldrake by pointing to the other most undercosted flier in the game doesn't make much sense.

I'm not trying to justify the cost, I'm trying to justify not raising the price because you don't happen to compensate for it. It doesn't matter if the Heldrake is 10 points or 300 points. If you bring the proper tools to handle it, you don't have to worry about the heldrake devaastating huge swaths of your army because you forgot to bring a quadgun or flier of your own.

Heldrake comes in, I fire the Quadgun at it and do 0,8 Hull Points. Heldrake kills one of my Troops. I fire a Stormtalon (which assumes mine isn't shot down by enemy AA) at it and do another 0,84 hull points. Heldrake kills another troops choice and regents a hull point. My flimsy 2HP AV11 flier is swatted out of the sky. The Heldrake's at 0,64 lost HPs and still rampaging through my army.

Seriously, you can take your l2p argument and stick it somewhere else. There is no way to hide from a Heldrake and unless you have Vendettas you aren't going to kill it reliably as any MEQ Codex. Pretending that all it takes is a flier of your own or a Quadgun to stop a Heldrake (let alone two or three!) is just ignorance of the highest magnitude. The Heldrake and the Riptide between them more or less spelled the end of having a chance as a non-Chaos MEQ Codex, because all your troops are going to die to AP3/2 Ignores Cover.

The Heldrake and the Riptide between them more or less spelled the end of having a chance as a non-Chaos MEQ Codex, because all your troops are going to die to AP3/2 Ignores Cover.

Quite sure there will be new toy (MC) for marines in the new dex with a $100+ model to fix that. That's the way for more money.

AV11 would be a quick and logical fix to helldrake and vendetta, but then you will use the 100+ marines you already have and keep your money instead giving it to GW.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Trying to justify the price of the Heldrake by pointing to the other most undercosted flier in the game doesn't make much sense.

I'm not trying to justify the cost, I'm trying to justify not raising the price because you don't happen to compensate for it. It doesn't matter if the Heldrake is 10 points or 300 points. If you bring the proper tools to handle it, you don't have to worry about the heldrake devaastating huge swaths of your army because you forgot to bring a quadgun or flier of your own.

Heldrake comes in, I fire the Quadgun at it and do 0,8 Hull Points. Heldrake kills one of my Troops. I fire a Stormtalon (which assumes mine isn't shot down by enemy AA) at it and do another 0,84 hull points. Heldrake kills another troops choice and regents a hull point. My flimsy 2HP AV11 flier is swatted out of the sky. The Heldrake's at 0,64 lost HPs and still rampaging through my army.

Seriously, you can take your l2p argument and stick it somewhere else. There is no way to hide from a Heldrake and unless you have Vendettas you aren't going to kill it reliably as any MEQ Codex. Pretending that all it takes is a flier of your own or a Quadgun to stop a Heldrake (let alone two or three!) is just ignorance of the highest magnitude. The Heldrake and the Riptide between them more or less spelled the end of having a chance as a non-Chaos MEQ Codex, because all your troops are going to die to AP3/2 Ignores Cover.

I'm not telling YOU, I'm telling the general "you." Also, I'm well aware that the Heldrake isn't that easy to take down. I'm not telling anyone to l2p, but its a point that needs to be made. The Heldrake is a powerful tool that does better when you try to glance it to death. It, like the Vendetta, need to be shot out of the sky in a turn or else you'll get burned. That means you either need a quadgun and another flier to both focus solely on the HD, or maybe a Vindicare and Icarus LC, or a Stormraven with a TL MM and TL AC, or a Stormtalon with a LC and AC. The TL LC on the Stormtalon glances on a 3 and pens on a 4+, the Assault Cannon glances on a 6, but actually pens on a 6 because of rending.

All I'm saying is that instead of saying its overpriced and we need to fix it, maybe we could suggest ways for people to deal with it in a game. The AV12 is a problem, but nothing that can't be accounted for.

If you want a AV12 flier, you better be looking at a 200+ point cost or mediocre firepower. Add in a 5+ inv and IWND and you better be having some drawback. Helldrake as none. The problem is that AV12 fliers are tougher to kill than land raiders to a lot of armies. AV11 really helps bring the fliers down to levels that AA can deal with. Lascannons are anti-tank, but autocannons are largely the AA. S9 to S7 is a huge jump in AT potential. Armor and defensive capabilities should drop the same. You dont see a land raider for 175 points with a 5+, so why is the helldrake?


Vendetta and Helldrake should drop to AV11, Stormraven should remain the only flier with AV12 simply because its firepower is pretty weak/mediocre for the cost already.

 McNinja wrote:
I'm not telling YOU, I'm telling the general "you." Also, I'm well aware that the Heldrake isn't that easy to take down. I'm not telling anyone to l2p, but its a point that needs to be made. The Heldrake is a powerful tool that does better when you try to glance it to death. It, like the Vendetta, need to be shot out of the sky in a turn or else you'll get burned. That means you either need a quadgun and another flier to both focus solely on the HD, or maybe a Vindicare and Icarus LC, or a Stormraven with a TL MM and TL AC, or a Stormtalon with a LC and AC. The TL LC on the Stormtalon glances on a 3 and pens on a 4+, the Assault Cannon glances on a 6, but actually pens on a 6 because of rending.

All I'm saying is that instead of saying its overpriced and we need to fix it, maybe we could suggest ways for people to deal with it in a game. The AV12 is a problem, but nothing that can't be accounted for.

So to fight said 175 point model you suggest bringing 300+ points to counter it? In a tournament environment, would we then bring 500+ points to deal with the common scenario of 2 Helldrakes with their cost of 350 points? I think this is the problem most of the population sees with the Helldrake that you don't seem to understand. You CAN counter it, but the points involved to meta against it in a TAC list that is required for tournaments is crazy.

You could always just potshot at them. Last game I played against one, I had a solo Cryptek snap shot it up the arse, and destroyed it outright in one shot

that LasPred? itll get one hit off between four LC shots
Landraider, itll get one hit from a Lascoannon, and probs about 2 from an assault cannon + that multimelta if you get lucky.
that allied Guard gunline, turn the autocannons skywrads and see how well they do.

just put out enough shots, and youll down it no problem

Best way to fix it is to make the firing arc 180 instead of 360

+25 points,
but -25 points for the autocannon version.