Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello,

I am about to take my first steps into Xenos by picking up some Tyranids, and I am curious to get some input from veteran Tyranid players on a couple upgrades.

1 - Are Tervigon Crushing Claws worth it? It seems like a decent upgrade if you don't have anything bigger than Termagants protecting the mommas, as it gives 1-2 extra Smash attacks depending on the roll and doesn't affect their Initiative. Do you find Crushing Claws to be helpful or a waste of points?

2 - Is it a good idea to put Toxin Sacs on Hormagaunts? I plan to use mine chiefly as a distracting screen or to hunker down as a giant mob to scare the enemy away from a particular piece of terrain, but there are so many T4+ models out there I am considering the extra points to make my full squad poisonous. Do Toxin Sacs often make the difference to you, or are Hormagaunts cannon fodder that should be as cheap as possible?

Thanks!

Tervigons do only have WS3 so they're not really combat oriented. I find a pair of scything talons for 5 pts has always earned it's point back, but claws on top of psychic powers and upgrades just makes them too expensive for me. Extra attacks for a unit that only hits on 4s is not worth it at that points cost.

On tervigons AG and TS should always be taken - not necessarily for the tervigon itself but for the gants - S4 on the charge and then 4+ to wound (rerollable against T4 on the turn they charge).
On the tervigon itself this often gives them a 2+ rerollable to wound, but again there are better units in CC.

Tervigons are a difficult to kill troop choice that spawns free troops, gives a AG/TS bubble to gants and casts feel no pain once a turn. Anything else they achieve is purely bonus

Hormogaunts though don't benefit from the tervigon so you need to pay for upgrades and it's 2 points a model rather than 1 for the termagant (if you ever paid for it, which you wouldn't). I find that more termagants is almost always better than hormogaunts. if you're going to lose masses of troops on the advance due to T3 and 6+ armour then make it free ones I say. Hormogaunts and genestealers are back on the shelf for me and have been since 6th came out.

I take one tervigon with CC and one with ST, as I use the CC one to advance it often gets into combat, so its useful.

For my part I find Crushing Claws to be very useful.

The reason being that generally the Tervigon will be a priority target, she will be growing the army as long as her tubes aren't tied and will attract an awful lot of firepower. For this reason I usually keep her either out of sight or in very heavy cover meaning the enemy may be forced to try and assassinate her in CC. If her tubes do tie then you will want to use her more offensively

Also your opponent may not count her as a true combat threat and may stray within charge range. She might have 3 biomancy powers so a good chance of warp speed.

With crushing claws and warp speed on the charge she can have a serious number of attacks, a squad of terminators, a walker or a tank can often be swept away regardless of only hitting on a 4+

I reckon the extra damage potential hidden in a basically defensive unit makes it worth the gamble on the points.

Crushing Claws can be nice, but they'll never be necessary. If your opponent can make it into combat with your Tervigon with something that wants to be in combat...you've done something wrong. You can easily surround her with free Termagants if necessary.
You can get a surprising number of attacks, especially with Warp Speed - something like a potential 8 smash attacks. Again, it's not needed. She'll never be great in combat with WS3 and Initiative 1. And against her preferred target (vehicles, some lone characters), the 2 smash attacks is often enough.

Hormagaunts should always be taken with Toxin Sacs. I even give mine Adrenal Glands - they can swarm vehicles and glance them to death and they re-roll to wound against most infantry. Most people believe that they're weak (and they are overcosted), but I think they can be very scary when used properly.

I've found Crushing Claws very useful. It make the Tervi and actual CC threat and not a complete pushover. When push comes to shove a good player will look at the Tervi and realize that without being tooled for CC they go down really easy in melee.

Crushing Claws vs Scything Talons

CC attacking MEQ:
3+2 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.6 wounds.

ST attacking MEQ:
3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.58 after re-roll, just over 1 wound.

CC Smashing against T8 or less:
2+2 attacks, 2 hits, 1.6 wounds

ST Smashing against T8 or less:
2 attacks, 1 hit, 1.08 hit after re-rolls, .9 wounds.

Thanks for the responses everyone, you've given me a lot to think about!

Not having used poison weapons before, it seemed superfluous to take both Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs, but I didn't think about that reroll! Definitely taking both now, thanks Ruminator.

You all make good points on the Crushing Claws--I had initially planned to take Catalyst and Crushing Claws, do you guys generally save the points and just roll for powers in the rulebook? It sounds like Biomancy is popular for Warp Speed. I will probably try it out with and without Crushing Claws, because as Ozziee said, once she's out of babies, there is sometimes a use for her on the offense.

For the Hormagaunts, I am still not sure that the upgrades are worth the points. I've played a couple games with someone else's minis, and I found them really effective in scaring people away from objectives and taking fire for the rest of my army without upgrades. If there is a Relic or some mid-table objective in cover, the Hormagaunts can typically make it there turn 1 with Hive Guard just behind, forcing a more cautious approach for the enemy and usually leaving an opportunity for a counter-assault. Again, I will probably try them with and without upgrades, but they seem pretty effective as a deterrent without the upgrades, and they get shot up so quickly it seems like it may be a waste to put the upgrades on them. When I used them to charge headlong into the enemy's zone they all died quickly, when I used them to hold a midfield objective in cover, I had a lot of success.

Thanks again!

My standard setup on tervigons is:

- crushing claws
- all 3 powers (roll on the biomancy table)
- adrenal and toxin
- cluster spines

The main reason I take the claws is that it forces the opponent to think twice about what they want to risk putting into that charge bubble.

Also, one thing a lot of people get wrong is when you smash, you only halve your statline attacks. Due to the order in which you do modifiers, you never halve the bonus attacks from charging, warp speed, or the claws.

I've always taken claws in the past but I think I'm going to try Talons in the future. Saving those 40 points is pretty big

Iron_Triangles wrote:
Hello,

I am about to take my first steps into Xenos by picking up some Tyranids, and I am curious to get some input from veteran Tyranid players on a couple upgrades.

1 - Are Tervigon Crushing Claws worth it? It seems like a decent upgrade if you don't have anything bigger than Termagants protecting the mommas, as it gives 1-2 extra Smash attacks depending on the roll and doesn't affect their Initiative. Do you find Crushing Claws to be helpful or a waste of points?

I think crushing claws are worth it if going triple psychic power with your tervigons, almost mandatory with this setup imo. You have already spent a ton of points going for the biomancy spam, may as well go that extra bit and leverage warp speed and/or iron arm to its fullest (I am assuming you know what these powers do and why people go for them, if not please ask). Doing so though assumes you are going to play the tervigon(s) a bit aggressively, which at ~200 points a model minimum they need to do more then just poop gaunts and score.

However, its perfectly fine to take a simple tervigon with catalyst and maybe toxin sacs and use it more passively. And in that case the crushing claws aren't doing much and I wouldn't take them.

tl;dr crushing claws are for biomancy spam tervigons used aggresively. Otherwise leave em off.

Vet tip -- use small rare earth magnets to allow you to swap out the claws for talons or whatnot. Its a must with tyranid MCs and warriors as you never know what is gonna be good in the next iteration of codex/rulebook and it allows you to get the most out of your expensive model.

2 - Is it a good idea to put Toxin Sacs on Hormagaunts? I plan to use mine chiefly as a distracting screen or to hunker down as a giant mob to scare the enemy away from a particular piece of terrain, but there are so many T4+ models out there I am considering the extra points to make my full squad poisonous. Do Toxin Sacs often make the difference to you, or are Hormagaunts cannon fodder that should be as cheap as possible?

Thanks!

In my opinion 10 point termagants are not worth it. I'd just go with toxin sacs if it were me. Allows them to take on anything but vehicles. If you want the poison/fc then Swarmlord is your man (he can give it to them if they need it, rather then spending the 2pts a model).

Yes and yes.

Tervigons + crushing claws + biomancy using a smash attack is insane. The Smash halves your A to 2 (from 3, rounding up) + D3 (+ a 2nd D3 if you have the right psychic power) all at S10

Horms have so many attacks with scytals, those toxin sacs are excellent to ensure you can wound anything easily.

If I'm going vs marines, I even take a brood with adrenal glands and toxin & charge them at terminators. The rerolls to hit on misses of a 1, followed by rerolls to wound on a 4+ (furious charge S4 / poison) - My favourite way past 2+ saves, is making them take enough, to fail them

"Also, one thing a lot of people get wrong is when you smash, you only halve your statline attacks. Due to the order in which you do modifiers, you never halve the bonus attacks from charging, warp speed, or the claws."

This is incorrect. As per the rulebook, you apply modifiers in the order: Multiply/Divide (like Smash), then Add/Subtract (like CC, Charging or Warp Speed), then apply any set values (like I1 from Unwieldy).

Howconfusing wrote:
"Also, one thing a lot of people get wrong is when you smash, you only halve your statline attacks. Due to the order in which you do modifiers, you never halve the bonus attacks from charging, warp speed, or the claws."

This is incorrect. As per the rulebook, you apply modifiers in the order: Multiply/Divide (like Smash), then Add/Subtract (like CC, Charging or Warp Speed), then apply any set values (like I1 from Unwieldy).

Due to bad grammer you are misreading him (not your fault). He is saying that people (incorrectly) think the order is (A+bonuses)/2. He posted the correct order right after.