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So, a situation the other day got me thinking; does the Shield Breaker rounds actually work on Abaddon? The argument for "no" that I had in mind goes as follows:

Abaddon's Invulnerable Save comes from his Terminator Armour. This can be negated as per the Shield Breaker rounds.

Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule as opposed to Wargear, states that the Invulnerable Save of his Terminator Armour is increased to 4+. Thus, would this not work regardless of whether he has an Invulnerable Save or not? You fire the Shield Breaker and take out the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour. You don't actually break the Terminator Armour, so Abaddon still has it. The next time he's hit by anything that requires him to take an Invulnerable Save, you look at his rules to find out what his Invulnerable Save is. As per the Shield Breaker rules, his Invulnerable Save from the Terminator Armour is set to nothing, or "-". The Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule and as such not negated by the Shield Breaker round, then increases this to a 4+, as per its own rules text. Legit?

No. There is no longer any invuilnerable save to increase

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, a situation the other day got me thinking; does the Shield Breaker rounds actually work on Abaddon? The argument for "no" that I had in mind goes as follows:

Abaddon's Invulnerable Save comes from his Terminator Armour. This can be negated as per the Shield Breaker rounds.

Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule as opposed to Wargear, states that the Invulnerable Save of his Terminator Armour is increased to 4+. Thus, would this not work regardless of whether he has an Invulnerable Save or not? You fire the Shield Breaker and take out the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour. You don't actually break the Terminator Armour, so Abaddon still has it. The next time he's hit by anything that requires him to take an Invulnerable Save, you look at his rules to find out what his Invulnerable Save is. As per the Shield Breaker rules, his Invulnerable Save from the Terminator Armour is set to nothing, or "-". The Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule and as such not negated by the Shield Breaker round, then increases this to a 4+, as per its own rules text. Legit?

he loses the invul, because it says the invul provided by his terminator armour is improved to 4+, you can't Improve on something that is not there.

The rule book tells us that "-" is the same as having no save. Thus, the Shield Breaker means the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour is "-". The Mark would then increase it to 4+, no?

Where does it say he now has a save of "-"? Page and graph.

Where does it say "none" and "-" are equal? It tells you that "0" and "-" are equal.

Mark of Tzeentch (CSM pg 30) is +1 to inv save, and a default 6+ inv save if the model does not have an inv.

Abaddon, after being hit by a Shield Breaker would have a 6+ inv save.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The rule book tells us that "-" is the same as having no save. Thus, the Shield Breaker means the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour is "-". The Mark would then increase it to 4+, no?

I think you will find that is specifically making reference to the Sv characteristic (a model's armour save) however, IIRC the MoCA also states that it counts as all four marks, which would that he would lose his 4+ invul, then, per MoT gain an invul of 6+ (as he would no longer have an invul to increase).

Isnt the mark also an item of wargear providing a save?d

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Isnt the mark also an item of wargear providing a save?d

Nope, it's a special rule. So after being hit by a Shield Breaker Abaddon would have a 6++ invulnerable due to the Mark of Tzeentch.

On a related note, would the shield breaker work against eldrad? his save comes from a remnant of glory which, RAW, does not appear to be wargear.

Doesn't it come under the wargear section, just like the DA's artefacts and the CSM items?

Nah, there is no wargear section in the eldar dex so RAW nothing in there is wargear

Weird, very weird. Typo perhaps GW?

MarkyMark wrote:
Nah, there is no wargear section in the eldar dex so RAW nothing in there is wargear

Unit entries don't have wargear listed?

 grendel083 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Nah, there is no wargear section in the eldar dex so RAW nothing in there is wargear

Unit entries don't have wargear listed?

They do, but Eldrad's armour which gives him his Invulnerable Save is listed not under "Wargear", but under "Remnants of Glory." I'm pretty sure the Remnants are supposed to be considered Wargear as well, but it's a little more difficult to argue when they are explicitly separate.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where does it say he now has a save of "-"? Page and graph.

Where does it say "none" and "-" are equal? It tells you that "0" and "-" are equal.

Page 2 of the BRB tells us that a model with an armour save of "-" means that the model doesn't have an armour save. Page 17 barely describes how Invulnerable saves work (it doesn't even, strictly speaking, tell you how to take roll an invulnerable save) but seems to equate an invulnerable save with an armour save that can't be negated by the AP of weapons. Thus, an invulnerable save of "none" would be represented in-game with a "-". Further, page 3 lends further credence to this, as it equates "-" with "0" and "none", although only in the case of characteristics (which as per page 17 may or may not be a subset of armour saves).

All the mark of chaos ascendent does is improve his terminator invuln save.

If the terminator invuln save doesn't exist anymore, it cannot be improved.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All the mark of chaos ascendent does is improve his terminator invuln save.

If the terminator invuln save doesn't exist anymore, it cannot be improved.

He would still have a 6+ inv as per Mark of Tzeentch.

I am with the people saying 6+ in this situation, even if it does remove the terminator armors invulnerable save. The sentence in question started with the words 'note that' and this indicates it is meant to be a reminder that you need to take the fact terminator armor provides an invulnerability save and adds on top of that. To try and read it as a rule in and of itself would mean other "note that" sections can be interpreted as rules, and then we end up with crazy things like shrouded giving you 3+ in the open.

The rule clearly states he has all four marks and nothing more. If you check what the Tzeentch mark does you won't find 'gives Abaddon a 4+ save' but the fact it improves invulnerable saves by 1. To try and state it does anything different would be the same as stating Abaddon gets nothing from the other three marks. All because the rule has nothing written about what they do when combined into a Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

JinxDragon wrote:

The rule clearly states he has all four marks and nothing more. If you check what the Tzeentch mark does you won't find 'gives Abaddon a 4+ save' but the fact it improves invulnerable saves by 1. To try and state it does anything different would be the same as stating Abaddon gets nothing from the other three marks. All because the rule has nothing written about what they do when combined into a Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

The OP obviously knows this already, and I'm certain he's only looking for approval from the community that he's cool enough to have possibly found a small loophole in the rules, even though logic dictates that no opponent or tournament official would be likely to ever let that happen.

He's got the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Part of the rules of the MoCA is that it counts as all four marks; that doesn't have to be all it does, and indeed doesn't appear to be all it does, according to RAW. Again, a save of "-" is the same as not having a save. A normal Mark of Tzeench upgrades your "-" Invulnerable Save to 6+. Abaddon's MoCA says it upgrades his Terminator Armour's invulnerable save to 4+. If you fire a shield breaker, it sets the Invulnerable Save to none, or "-". The MoCA then upgrades the "-" save to a 4+.

That's not really what his rule says.

"Note that, due to the Mark of Tzeentch, The invulnerable save provided by Abbadon's Terminator Armour is increased to 4+"

So its a Mark of Tzeentch that's responsible for the increase. His Terminator invulnerable save is increased to 4+, but from what? A 5+.

Also note that the rule you're referring to is not a rule, but a note. A clarification of how 2 rules combine.

 grendel083 wrote:
That's not really what his rule says.

"Note that, due to the Mark of Tzeentch, The invulnerable save provided by Abbadon's Terminator Armour is increased to 4+"

So its a Mark of Tzeentch that's responsible for the increase. His Terminator invulnerable save is increased to 4+, but from what? A 5+.

Also note that the rule you're referring to is not a rule, but a note. A clarification of how 2 rules combine.

And it's specified that it's SPECIFICALLY the MoT that does it. Not an extra rule to his own mark. So even if it was not a note, but a rule, it would still be referencing the MoT rule, and still be a 6+ after shield breaker.