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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 09:16:12
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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So, a situation the other day got me thinking; does the Shield Breaker rounds actually work on Abaddon? The argument for "no" that I had in mind goes as follows:
Abaddon's Invulnerable Save comes from his Terminator Armour. This can be negated as per the Shield Breaker rounds.
Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule as opposed to Wargear, states that the Invulnerable Save of his Terminator Armour is increased to 4+. Thus, would this not work regardless of whether he has an Invulnerable Save or not? You fire the Shield Breaker and take out the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour. You don't actually break the Terminator Armour, so Abaddon still has it. The next time he's hit by anything that requires him to take an Invulnerable Save, you look at his rules to find out what his Invulnerable Save is. As per the Shield Breaker rules, his Invulnerable Save from the Terminator Armour is set to nothing, or "-". The Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule and as such not negated by the Shield Breaker round, then increases this to a 4+, as per its own rules text. Legit?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 09:20:22
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No. There is no longer any invuilnerable save to increase
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 09:21:26
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:So, a situation the other day got me thinking; does the Shield Breaker rounds actually work on Abaddon? The argument for "no" that I had in mind goes as follows:
Abaddon's Invulnerable Save comes from his Terminator Armour. This can be negated as per the Shield Breaker rounds.
Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule as opposed to Wargear, states that the Invulnerable Save of his Terminator Armour is increased to 4+. Thus, would this not work regardless of whether he has an Invulnerable Save or not? You fire the Shield Breaker and take out the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour. You don't actually break the Terminator Armour, so Abaddon still has it. The next time he's hit by anything that requires him to take an Invulnerable Save, you look at his rules to find out what his Invulnerable Save is. As per the Shield Breaker rules, his Invulnerable Save from the Terminator Armour is set to nothing, or "-". The Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which is a Special Rule and as such not negated by the Shield Breaker round, then increases this to a 4+, as per its own rules text. Legit?
he loses the invul, because it says the invul provided by his terminator armour is improved to 4+, you can't Improve on something that is not there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 09:55:03
Subject: Re:Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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The rule book tells us that "-" is the same as having no save. Thus, the Shield Breaker means the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour is "-". The Mark would then increase it to 4+, no?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 10:00:11
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Where does it say he now has a save of "-"? Page and graph.
Where does it say "none" and "-" are equal? It tells you that "0" and "-" are equal.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/14 10:00:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 10:03:33
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation
Perth, Western Australia
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Mark of Tzeentch (CSM pg 30) is +1 to inv save, and a default 6+ inv save if the model does not have an inv.
Abaddon, after being hit by a Shield Breaker would have a 6+ inv save.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 10:04:34
Subject: Re:Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:The rule book tells us that "-" is the same as having no save. Thus, the Shield Breaker means the Invulnerable Save of the Terminator Armour is "-". The Mark would then increase it to 4+, no?
I think you will find that is specifically making reference to the Sv characteristic (a model's armour save) however, IIRC the MoCA also states that it counts as all four marks, which would that he would lose his 4+ invul, then, per MoT gain an invul of 6+ (as he would no longer have an invul to increase).
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DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 10:06:57
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Isnt the mark also an item of wargear providing a save?d
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 10:09:06
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan
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Nope, it's a special rule. So after being hit by a Shield Breaker Abaddon would have a 6++ invulnerable due to the Mark of Tzeentch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 11:02:48
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator
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On a related note, would the shield breaker work against eldrad? his save comes from a remnant of glory which, RAW, does not appear to be wargear.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 11:29:51
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
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Doesn't it come under the wargear section, just like the DA's artefacts and the CSM items?
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DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 11:30:55
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Nah, there is no wargear section in the eldar dex so RAW nothing in there is wargear
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40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 11:56:35
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
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Weird, very weird. Typo perhaps GW?
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DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 11:59:26
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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MarkyMark wrote:Nah, there is no wargear section in the eldar dex so RAW nothing in there is wargear
Unit entries don't have wargear listed?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 12:59:43
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan
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They do, but Eldrad's armour which gives him his Invulnerable Save is listed not under "Wargear", but under "Remnants of Glory." I'm pretty sure the Remnants are supposed to be considered Wargear as well, but it's a little more difficult to argue when they are explicitly separate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 14:31:13
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Where does it say he now has a save of "-"? Page and graph.
Where does it say "none" and "-" are equal? It tells you that "0" and "-" are equal.
Page 2 of the BRB tells us that a model with an armour save of "-" means that the model doesn't have an armour save. Page 17 barely describes how Invulnerable saves work (it doesn't even, strictly speaking, tell you how to take roll an invulnerable save) but seems to equate an invulnerable save with an armour save that can't be negated by the AP of weapons. Thus, an invulnerable save of "none" would be represented in-game with a "-". Further, page 3 lends further credence to this, as it equates "-" with "0" and "none", although only in the case of characteristics (which as per page 17 may or may not be a subset of armour saves).
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/14 17:39:09
Subject: Re:Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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All the mark of chaos ascendent does is improve his terminator invuln save.
If the terminator invuln save doesn't exist anymore, it cannot be improved.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/15 00:51:51
Subject: Re:Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation
Perth, Western Australia
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Grey Templar wrote:All the mark of chaos ascendent does is improve his terminator invuln save.
If the terminator invuln save doesn't exist anymore, it cannot be improved.
He would still have a 6+ inv as per Mark of Tzeentch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/15 01:45:34
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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I am with the people saying 6+ in this situation, even if it does remove the terminator armors invulnerable save. The sentence in question started with the words 'note that' and this indicates it is meant to be a reminder that you need to take the fact terminator armor provides an invulnerability save and adds on top of that. To try and read it as a rule in and of itself would mean other "note that" sections can be interpreted as rules, and then we end up with crazy things like shrouded giving you 3+ in the open. The rule clearly states he has all four marks and nothing more. If you check what the Tzeentch mark does you won't find 'gives Abaddon a 4+ save' but the fact it improves invulnerable saves by 1. To try and state it does anything different would be the same as stating Abaddon gets nothing from the other three marks. All because the rule has nothing written about what they do when combined into a Mark of Chaos Ascendant.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/15 01:49:12
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:22:33
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Sinister Chaos Marine
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JinxDragon wrote:
The rule clearly states he has all four marks and nothing more. If you check what the Tzeentch mark does you won't find 'gives Abaddon a 4+ save' but the fact it improves invulnerable saves by 1. To try and state it does anything different would be the same as stating Abaddon gets nothing from the other three marks. All because the rule has nothing written about what they do when combined into a Mark of Chaos Ascendant.
The OP obviously knows this already, and I'm certain he's only looking for approval from the community that he's cool enough to have possibly found a small loophole in the rules, even though logic dictates that no opponent or tournament official would be likely to ever let that happen.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:46:54
Subject: Re:Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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He's got the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Part of the rules of the MoCA is that it counts as all four marks; that doesn't have to be all it does, and indeed doesn't appear to be all it does, according to RAW. Again, a save of "-" is the same as not having a save. A normal Mark of Tzeench upgrades your "-" Invulnerable Save to 6+. Abaddon's MoCA says it upgrades his Terminator Armour's invulnerable save to 4+. If you fire a shield breaker, it sets the Invulnerable Save to none, or "-". The MoCA then upgrades the "-" save to a 4+.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 13:03:34
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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That's not really what his rule says.
"Note that, due to the Mark of Tzeentch, The invulnerable save provided by Abbadon's Terminator Armour is increased to 4+"
So its a Mark of Tzeentch that's responsible for the increase. His Terminator invulnerable save is increased to 4+, but from what? A 5+.
Also note that the rule you're referring to is not a rule, but a note. A clarification of how 2 rules combine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 13:06:23
Subject: Abaddon and the Vindicare's Shield Breaker
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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grendel083 wrote:That's not really what his rule says.
"Note that, due to the Mark of Tzeentch, The invulnerable save provided by Abbadon's Terminator Armour is increased to 4+"
So its a Mark of Tzeentch that's responsible for the increase. His Terminator invulnerable save is increased to 4+, but from what? A 5+.
Also note that the rule you're referring to is not a rule, but a note. A clarification of how 2 rules combine.
And it's specified that it's SPECIFICALLY the MoT that does it. Not an extra rule to his own mark. So even if it was not a note, but a rule, it would still be referencing the MoT rule, and still be a 6+ after shield breaker.
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