Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Assuming each takes the pair of Greater Rewards and LoC is upgraded to ML3, both are nearly the same price.

I was initially drawn to the 'Thirster for straight killing power but is the added utility of the LoC really worth more?

Depends on the rest of your list, i.e do you want princes in as well with pyshic powers, or cheaper princes, what are you likey to be facing, LoC doesnt have a normal save unless you roll a 6 on the greater reward. Do you have another HQ or prince to put the grimoire on fatey etc.

Personnaly I prefer the LoC of Fateweaver as my princes as the ones doing the killing, LoC/fatey can fly around shoot some stuff and buff/de buff as needed. Everytime I have faced a BT I have killed it from firepower or from enfeeble and smash attacks or vectors then hoping for one of three ml2 princes having warp speed then charging in.

I feel that the LOC is better in almost every circumstance.

A level 3 LOC with 2 Greater Gifts and a lesser gift runs you 305 points

A Thirster with 2 greater gifts runs you 290 (300 if you also want a lesser gift.)

The Blood Thrster generally has better stats, but in many cases they are better to the point of being useless. I9 is not that much better in most cases than I6

WS 10 is better defensively than WS 6, but adds little to the game offensively.

The 3+ save is nice on the thirster, but the LOC is plenty durable (moreso in many cases) than the thirster.

Looking at the Greater gifts The LOC gains Durability on the 3+ save (at which point he is more durable than the thirster) as well as the other durability upgrades. He also benefits from Divination so can gain a 4++, Re-rolls to hit, Re-rolls hits wounds and saves. He also supports your army with those powers. Furthermore the LOC is more resilent against pychic powers due to being ML 3.

Just looking at Damage Output assuming the charge with Each.

Thirster 6 S7 attacks= 4 hit= 3.333 wounds

LOC with staff form lesser gift = 6 S8 attacks= 5.3333 hits (prescience is pretty much a given, if not precog) = 4.444 wounds= (5.15 with Precog), The LOC also doubles out T4 without smashing.

Do you memorize that or have a program that does these calculations for you?

Ah I forgot about that Breng, luckly I never do in games. On Tzeentch LoC and princes a lesser gift is auto take, why staff of change, instant str 8 means you are instal killing t4 (i.e Wraiths) with each wound unsaved that alone is worth 10pts.

Plus they blow up nicely.

I'd agree with most of your assessment breng, but I will point out that Bloodthirster is likely to end up more durable because it comes stock with the 3+ save, so it has the likely potential of three defensive upgrades to the LoC two.

Also, the ability to instant death things on a 6 gives it an edge fighting other big nasties.

Lastly, a BS10 plasma shot isn't negligible damage.

It really depends, remember that if the LOC gets a 3+ it re-rolls 1s, and Divination also can give it a 3rd Defensive Buff (Precog- re-rolls saves, so if you ahve a 3+ re-rolla ble or 5+ re-rollable, or Forewarning for a 4++)

I agree the instant death on 6s is nice against some armies (like nids.) but similarly the LOC wounds them on 2s without smashing.

Unfortunately there just isn't much of a reason to use a blood thirster in an edition that is shooting and psychic power heavy. As stated above, for a few more points you get massively better abilities as WS10 rarely matters nor does another attack.

S8 is a huge deal as are divination powers.

I agree the Thirster is hardly bad, but the LOC is (as I have said elsewhere) a better tool box. If you need to deal with hordes take some shooting powers, if you need to buff another unit you can, if you need to fight, the LOC is as good or better against most things. The thirster is a good beatstick, but Daemon Princes do the better in a lot of cases.

To be honest, i'd take the LoC every time.
Combat monsters really are nice, but combat isnt really the best right now.
You want to be sat back shooting, which is something the LoC does well.

Even if you get drawn into combat, the LoC can hold his own just fine.

Its sad to say, but the thirster isnt what he used to be anymore.
He is still a flying battle tank, he is just alot easier to kill now, which really is a big loss.
Even worse is the fact that 90% of ID causing weapons work in CC, which is where the thirster thrives.

Picking fights is an option, but some times the thirster will be at a loss for units he can smash without fear of being killed in return.

Minor negative on LoC is more perils tests throughout the game.

But really, I'm feeling like there is no obvious winner here.

Pretty much all the posts say that the LOC is better. The problem is there isn't much the thirster does that the LOC can't do. Ontop of that the LOC does a lot the thirster cant.

Is the thirster bad? No, but there is a pretty big winner and thats the LOC. He's a CC machine in an edition that heavily penalizes CC, and that's *all* he can do.

For some reason everybody I have ever used a bloodthirster against just targets it relentlessly until it dies. A useful fire magnet yes but a frijin expensive one. People seem to take less interest in the LoC probably because they are under the impression it will be less "in their face".

LoC is pretty good in combat still, especially at low points. Say 750 and voila, beast away. I won a 750 tourney with LoC and he was in combat a fair amount, even taking on a Flyrant and winning As well, his supportiness to the army makes him better IMO, and the fact that if you dont want to engage in combat at all during the game then your main asset isnt wasted.

I think the LoC is almost strictly better. There are a few instances where the BT might be preferred, but they are rare. The defensive potential of a LoC is also huge - with a Telepathy psyker it can grab a 2+ rerollable cover save, with a Grimoire it can get a 2.5+ save (3+ reroll 1's) and if it grabs precognition it becomes a monster. If it gets a 3+ armor save it is brutal.There are so many ways for the LoC to be good - and with Divination to make itself or other units even better.

The worst case scenario is to roll up Foreboding and Scryers Gaze - in which case it becomes a a 4d6 S5 skyfire shot platform at BS 6.

I'm with the Lord of Change too. It's a jack-of-all trades. Psychic power support, shooting, and for 10 points, a Strength 8 weapon that will not go away after the initial charge that blows characters up.

Bloodthirster for 250 is a bargain, LoC is for more heavy duty work and more versatile if you're taking Heralds.

What's everyone's thought on the GUO?

Bloodthirster...for the fear tactic.

LoC...doesn't really scare me...I'll handle him eventually.

Bloodthirster...something I need to move far far away from...now.

Finesse versus Fury

 ductvader wrote:
Bloodthirster...for the fear tactic.

LoC...doesn't really scare me...I'll handle him eventually.

Bloodthirster...something I need to move far far away from...now.

Finesse versus Fury

Interesting... the person who fears the bloodthirster (at least based on the sig) is the person who uses a multiwound army ('nids) and a small model count army (GK).

Obviously meta dependent, but I think the LoC is better in most cases. 5+ invuln rerollable 1s. Better deny the witch. Decent CC offence where it matters (lesser WS and I isn't a huge deal), and actually has more strength (with staff). Psychic buff potential, and potential rerollable 2++ with the right gear and spells.

LOC

 whembly wrote:
What's everyone's thought on the GUO?

Biggest drawback I see is the slow speed. Deepstrike helps that but it's still the slowest GD overall.

I know a lot of people LOVE the idea of ML3 with Biomancy for the wicked T8-10 monster but I'd keep him simple and cheap. Take the Nurgle Prime power for a cheap template (because you're only BS3) and maybe take the flail for a little extra S and extra wound chance.

 minigun762 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
What's everyone's thought on the GUO?

Biggest drawback I see is the slow speed. Deepstrike helps that but it's still the slowest GD overall.

I know a lot of people LOVE the idea of ML3 with Biomancy for the wicked T8-10 monster but I'd keep him simple and cheap. Take the Nurgle Prime power for a cheap template (because you're only BS3) and maybe take the flail for a little extra S and extra wound chance.

He can be a great Warlord (you're probably not going to lose him unless your opposing a lot of force weapons or eldar with distort) and if you can stick the deepstrike confidently he's good... but if you roll up Terrible Accident or Misplaced, it's basically wasted points.

He fills a very different roll to the Bloodthirster/LoC.

DrCrook wrote:
Do you memorize that or have a program that does these calculations for you?

He's a follower of Tzeentch, he just listens to the numbers getting whispered into his ear.

 minigun762 wrote:
Assuming each takes the pair of Greater Rewards and LoC is upgraded to ML3, both are nearly the same price.

I was initially drawn to the 'Thirster for straight killing power but is the added utility of the LoC really worth more?

I've tried both, and they can both work very well.

I like the LoC a little more because there are a number of divination abilities that can combo stupidly well with gifts. In one game my LoC got the following
* 4+ FNP
* 3+ Armor Save
* Precognition
* Forewarding
My LoC was then rerolling failed saves, giving him a 8/9 chance to make normal saves, and a 3/4 to make invulns. Half of those he was able to FNP away. He was rerolling failed to hits and wounds, so was hitting 8/9 of the time and wounding 35/36 of the time.

In that game the LoC walked completely through the enemy army killing nearly every model my opponent had, and took everything he could throw at it and laughed.

 DexKivuli wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Bloodthirster...for the fear tactic.

LoC...doesn't really scare me...I'll handle him eventually.

Bloodthirster...something I need to move far far away from...now.

Finesse versus Fury

Interesting... the person who fears the bloodthirster (at least based on the sig) is the person who uses a multiwound army ('nids) and a small model count army (GK).

Fair point!