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I have been considering adding some Rough Riders to my list + tactical genius but I am a little conflicted on how effective they would be with Overwatch rules. I imagine they would be effective against units with no ranged options, but many do. I don't have my rulebook infront of me but I think they have a 5+ save. Does anyone run with Rough Riders in their IG list? How do they fare with the overwatch rule?

I'd be less worried about overwatch, and more worried about the shooting phase. One squad with bolters will gut them before they have a chance to do anything.

Rough riders are fragile, but there are things you can do to protect them. Reserves, Chimeras and normal terrain can all be used to help protect them, along with running them up with other units to saturate the enemy with targets.

Given that RRs will die easily to most weapon types you should restrict yourself to charging units that are small or have few ranged weapons, or to units that are already in combat. This matches up quite well with their recommended use as counter-charge units to support your gunline.

Great suggestions guys, thanks for the replies. I hadn't even considered the possibility of using them as a counter charge unit.

Don't charge stuff with flamers.. but then that goes for any 5+ save model.

 Shandara wrote:
Don't charge stuff with flamers.. but then that goes for any 5+ save model.

Charging Burnaboyz can end badly even for Terminators.

Commissar Benny wrote:
I have been considering adding some Rough Riders to my list + tactical genius...

Unfortunately, tactical genius does not work on cavalry models, only infantry and vehicles. I suppose Creed just has no experience with mounted tactics.

RRs can make a reasonable counter charge unit, against things such as deep striking power armour. They are very fragile though, so have to be used carefully.

Dont bother with RR. If you REALLY want to run cavalry, grab IA12 and run death korps riders. Those are the real deal. 2W, 4+ and 6+fnp, 2A base+ 2CCW, reroll dangerous terrain tests, and have krak grenades after they kill a squad to go hunt vehicles.

They die like regular guardsmen in every situation, overwatch or no. Given that they have to be in close combat to be useful, and that CC is so difficult to do properly nowadays, I agree that they're generally best left on the shelf. At least until the next rules edition comes out, or they regain the ability to charge out of reserves again.

Were I to run RRs now, I'd run them as a cheaper, crappier form of stormtroopers - a 5-man squad with a pair of special weapons. Even then, though... they're only BS3, and they can only operate very well on their side of the board.

The fact that hunting lances got FAQed down to power lances just added insult to injury. They really need a new codex.

Sort of related, what about the Death Riders?

For 5 extra points and the loss of special weapons, you get +1W/WS/A, 4+ armor/6+ FNP, actual hunting lances that use the old profile

And the whole platoon thing

Meh. Better, but it doesnt' really fix the problems that much. FNP is too easy to ignore on guardsmen, and there are still Ap4 or better weapons. More durable over all, I suppose, but they're still not, well... THAT durable.


Moreover, you're starting to create a serious conflict with stormtroopers by that point. For only 1 point extra per model you lose half the wounds against small arms, but you gain BS4 special weapons, the ability to deepstrike, and the ability to reroll the scatter for said deepstrike. Plus, their other weapons are only Ap3, but they can use them the turn they arrive by deepstrike, while hunting lances can never be used from reserves.

 Ailaros wrote:
FNP is too easy to ignore on guardsmen, and there are still Ap4 or better weapons.

Of course, but that's why you have grenadiers and tanks to help with target saturation. The problem with rough riders wasn't getting shot to death by heavy weapons, it was basic infantry guns. Every bolter/pulse rifle/etc hit they took would wound on a 2+ with no save. The DKoK ones get a 4+ save against all of that and then two wounds to cut the casualties in half again. Now you have an 85 point unit that takes legitimate heavy weapons to bring down and can do way more than 85 points worth of damage if you ignore it.

Moreover, you're starting to create a serious conflict with stormtroopers by that point.

Not really. You're talking about two completely different roles. Stormtroopers deep strike in and hit targets (preferably vehicles) you wouldn't otherwise be able to shoot at, rough riders are a counter-assault threat that removes entire units from the table when they charge. The only similarity is they're both elite IG infantry, which is about as much conflict as the one between bikes and terminators.

And of course the DKoK list that gets legitimate rough riders doesn't get stormtroopers. Grenadiers are significantly cheaper and troops but lose deep strike and special operations (a fair trade IMO). So unless you're taking allies you won't ever have both of them in a list.

DKoK horsies still don't have the durability to charge across the field, though. No moreso than veterans with carapace.

And stormtroopers can be used defensively as well, but the difference is that they can be an offensive unit as well, and they don't need to be in close combat (which is far, far from certain that they'll be able to do) to use their killing power. Stormtroopers do most of what horsies do, but can also do more, and are more flexible. The only thing the cavalry do really better is killing terminators and monstrous creatures that both get into your deployment zone AND your opponent hasn't managed to kill them off before they can become a threat.

And in the case of DKoK, it's even worse, because you have even better shooting to compete with points. Why bother grasping for a few horses to maybe but probably not make it into close combat because otherwise they're useless, when you could just blow your opponent off the board with all the other gadgets DKoK gets?

 Ailaros wrote:
DKoK horsies still don't have the durability to charge across the field, though.

I don't see how this matters, unless you're a really stupid player who thinks that elite IG play like green tide orks. You hold the death riders back as a counter-assault unit that can move 12" and charge with fleet, they can just sit in cover/out of LOS and wait for their target to come to them. You don't just run them out into the open and hope they get there alive.

and they don't need to be in close combat (which is far, far from certain that they'll be able to do) to use their killing power.

But they really do. You have a maximum range of 12" for the plasma, 9" for the AP 3 lasguns, and 6" if you want to use their melta effectively. Meanwhile the death riders have double the movement and fleet for assaulting so it's actually easier to get them into range (outside of deep striking).

Stormtroopers do most of what horsies do, but can also do more, and are more flexible.

No, they really don't. Let's consider marines:

105 points worth of storm troopers gives you six STR 3 AP 3 shots, two STR 8 AP 1 shots, all of them hitting on 3s. That's an average of 2.44 dead marines.

85 points of death riders gives you five STR 3 AP - shots, five auto-hit STR 3 AP - hammer of wrath hits, and then sixteen* STR 5 AP 3 attacks at WS 4. That's an average of 7.49 dead marines, three times as much as the more expensive melta stormtroopers.

So no, storm troopers can not do what death riders do.


*And add another five attacks if you agree that lances having "specialist weapon" when codex lances don't is a typo, since death riders have pistol + CCW.

What if your opponent doesn't bring anything over onto your side of the board to get countercharged? What if your opponent kills the rough riders while they twiddle their thumbs waiting for something to stray into range?

Stormtroopers go anywhere on the board, and get to attack at least once. Rough riders have to hide in your deployment zone and hope that they have a target before they're killed.

And even if the riders do get to attack, they can only do it in close combat, which is just begging for failed charge rolls or overwatch killing the one model close enough to make the charge in. And they can't charge anything with heavy flamers, or certain other weapons. And there are a few things that they plain old won't beat in close combat, like anything with I6.

Setting up a scenario of marines standing around in your deployment zone against rough riders that your opponent hasn't touched yet doesn't really matter when in a vast majority of situations, the stormtroopers (or a big myriad of other shooting options) are just better, even if you can find a single example when they're not.

 Ailaros wrote:
What if your opponent doesn't bring anything over onto your side of the board to get countercharged?

Then you don't make good use of a countercharge unit. In my experience this isn't really much of a problem, and even if you're playing against gunline Tau it's only an 85 point unit.

What if your opponent kills the rough riders while they twiddle their thumbs waiting for something to stray into range?

Then I'm happy my opponent spent all that effort getting around a LOS blocker to take a shot at an 85 point unit that isn't even in range yet instead of shooting at all the other things I have that are in range?

Stormtroopers go anywhere on the board, and get to attack at least once. Rough riders have to hide in your deployment zone and hope that they have a target before they're killed.

The point is that stormtroopers go anywhere on the table, but don't do that much when they get there (except against vehicles). Death riders get a one-shot attack but tend to wipe entire units off the table when they hit something.

And even if the riders do get to attack, they can only do it in close combat, which is just begging for failed charge rolls or overwatch killing the one model close enough to make the charge in.

You do realize that infantry and cavalry are very different, right? 12" move + 3D6 pick highest charge = very consistent charges.

And they can't charge anything with heavy flamers, or certain other weapons.

Not at all true. A heavy flamer averages less than one dead death rider, which is hardly something to be terrified of. And of course not many units have even a single heavy flamer, and even fewer get multiple heavy flamers (or equivalents).

Setting up a scenario of marines standing around in your deployment zone against rough riders that your opponent hasn't touched yet doesn't really matter when in a vast majority of situations, the stormtroopers are just better, even if you can find a single example when they're not.

Why are we talking about "standing around" when we're discussing a unit that has a consistent 20" threat range in assault? If my opponent is staying outside that 20" bubble because of a single 85 point unit I've probably won the game before it even began.

 Peregrine wrote:


*And add another five attacks if you agree that lances having "specialist weapon" when codex lances don't is a typo, since death riders have pistol + CCW.

Codex lances have ''can't take extra attack from having extra CCW'' tho

 Bobthehero wrote:
Codex lances have ''can't take extra attack from having extra CCW'' tho

Not anymore. The FAQ removes the codex text and replaces it with different rules, which do not include a restriction on getting extra attacks.

(My guess is the FW author read the codex but didn't have access to the FAQ in time to get it into the book.)