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Hey Dakka, quick question:

The MoT in C:CSM states that it gives +1 to invulnerable saves to a maximum of a 3++, can this then stack with the grimoire?

For example, a unit of Warp Talons have a 5++, MOT = a 4++ and would the Grimoire then make this a 3++ or a 2++?

Thanks,

Iranna.

Yes it would stack - assuming it can be used on any allied unit, as well as units from the Daemon book.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes it would stack - assuming it can be used on any allied unit, as well as units from the Daemon book.

It can be used on any model with the Daemon special rule.

Also, I'm a little confused by what you mean - are you agreeing to a 2++ or a 3++? Sorry

Iranna.

I believe to use the book on a model/unit requires it to be a friendly Daemon, or an enemy Daemon if you choose to subtract 1 from their invulnerable save.

Steelpain wrote:
I believe to use the book on a model/unit requires it to be a friendly Daemon, or an enemy Daemon if you choose to subtract 1 from their invulnerable save.

CSM and CD are Battle Brothers, so treat each other's units as "friendly". Warp Talons also have the Daemon special rule, so are "Friendly Daemons".

Iranna.

The book can target any unit with at least one model with the Daemon special rule. The question is since they stack, is the invuln save a 2++ (5++ +1 from MoT +2 from GoTN) or is it a 3++ as MoT cannot improve an Invuln save past 3++.

I do see the confusion now, MoT states it can't increase the invulnerable save past 3++. So if we did the order of operations the Mark is already on and taking effect so 4++ plus the Grimoire afterwards for a 2++. Is there anything that states MoT is added after or before all/other modifiers? Sounds like they didn't plan on the ability to further increase the invulnerable save by other sources. I think you could argue that the MoT is first (4++) and then you choose to put the Book of Names on after adding a further 2 for a final save of 2++.

I don't think there's an "order" at all, and even if there is, it doesn't really matter. The Mark of Tzeentch won't contribute to any save past 3++, so once you hit 2++ it "poofs", and so to get a real 2++, you'd have to do it entirely without the benefit of the Mark.

Pyrian wrote:
I don't think there's an "order" at all, and even if there is, it doesn't really matter. The Mark of Tzeentch won't contribute to any save past 3++, so once you hit 2++ it "poofs", and so to get a real 2++, you'd have to do it entirely without the benefit of the Mark.

There is an order to it.

It actually makes sense as a 2++ which is silly.

The MoT confers a 4++. Than the "Book" can poof it to a 2++

I guess the only way to resolve it fairly is that the player whose turn it currently is gets to choose the order, which mens in the Daemon players turn it will be MoT then GoTN for a 2++. On the opposing players turn it will be GoTN then MoT for a 3++.

 Happyjew wrote:
I guess the only way to resolve it fairly is that the player whose turn it currently is gets to choose the order, which mens in the Daemon players turn it will be MoT then GoTN for a 2++. On the opposing players turn it will be GoTN then MoT for a 3++.

At this point, as the opposing player, I know I won't remember to make sure the CSM has a 3++ on my turn, and it's unlikely that my opponent has thought this through well enough to know he is supposed to play it that way. Any suggestions on how I can remember this for the six times in my future games it will happen?
It wouldn't affect me much in friendly games, but if I go to a big tourney and I happen to play a CSM/Daemon, I'd want to remember that since it could be significant.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I guess the only way to resolve it fairly is that the player whose turn it currently is gets to choose the order, which mens in the Daemon players turn it will be MoT then GoTN for a 2++. On the opposing players turn it will be GoTN then MoT for a 3++.

At this point, as the opposing player, I know I won't remember to make sure the CSM has a 3++ on my turn, and it's unlikely that my opponent has thought this through well enough to know he is supposed to play it that way. Any suggestions on how I can remember this for the six times in my future games it will happen?
It wouldn't affect me much in friendly games, but if I go to a big tourney and I happen to play a CSM/Daemon, I'd want to remember that since it could be significant.

In a tourney ask the TO first. He might just call it one way or the other.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
There is an order to it.

Citation needed. And even if it's true, the existence of any "order" is irrelevant; restrictions do not cease to apply just because you've already applied the benefit. The cap for application of the Mark applies at all times you're using it.

That's not exactly true, either, because the rules pertaining to trading out wargear on certain units who can be upgraded to a different kind of unit very much depends on the order in which you purchase the upgrades.

Remember this only matters for CSM+daemon combo armies, and only units from CSM with the daemon rule as well as MoT. Basically warp talons and obliterators and possessed. Not great targets for the grimoire which also means not using it on good units like hounds and FMCs.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's not exactly true, either, because the rules pertaining to trading out wargear on certain units who can be upgraded to a different kind of unit very much depends on the order in which you purchase the upgrades.

I don't really think that's relevant, but for the record, I'm consistent in that respect: I'm firmly of the opinion that you cannot buy a Dark Eldar Warrior a Splinter Cannon and "then" upgrade him to a sybarite so you can get precision shots and LOS! on your weapon upgrade. In that case like in this one, the restriction still applies.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Remember this only matters for CSM+daemon combo armies, and only units from CSM with the daemon rule as well as MoT. Basically warp talons and obliterators and possessed. Not great targets for the grimoire which also means not using it on good units like hounds and FMCs.

Dont forget the myriad of Daemon engines CSM have, they can make use of it too.

 Happyjew wrote:
The book can target any unit with at least one model with the Daemon special rule. The question is since they stack, is the invuln save a 2++ (5++ +1 from MoT +2 from GoTN) or is it a 3++ as MoT cannot improve an Invuln save past 3++.

Why cant it improve it past a 3++?

MarkyMark wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The book can target any unit with at least one model with the Daemon special rule. The question is since they stack, is the invuln save a 2++ (5++ +1 from MoT +2 from GoTN) or is it a 3++ as MoT cannot improve an Invuln save past 3++.

Why cant it improve it past a 3++?

Part of the Mark of Tzeetch rule, it can't improve a save past 3+

Cyvash wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Remember this only matters for CSM+daemon combo armies, and only units from CSM with the daemon rule as well as MoT. Basically warp talons and obliterators and possessed. Not great targets for the grimoire which also means not using it on good units like hounds and FMCs.

Dont forget the myriad of Daemon engines CSM have, they can make use of it too.

We're talking about a 2++ here and no, none of the daemon engines can take mark of tzeentch.

A hovering helldrake that flats out could achieve a 2++ then eh?

A hovering heldrake that flat outs is my favorite kind - its not killing my army.

jmswargaming wrote:
A hovering helldrake that flats out could achieve a 2++ then eh?

No. Grimoire buffs a daemon invuln. Jink and flat out are cover saves.

Fair enough

Then an IC with the Aura/TDA and a Mark of Tzeentch. Abaddon, Ahriman, Sorceror, etc. joined to a unit with the Daemon rule.

Come on folks, this board lives off of hypotheticals. Don't dismiss a thread because you don't like the tactics involved. Maybe it's the last turn of Big Guns Never Tire/The Scouring and you REALLY need them to survive.

 grendel083 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The book can target any unit with at least one model with the Daemon special rule. The question is since they stack, is the invuln save a 2++ (5++ +1 from MoT +2 from GoTN) or is it a 3++ as MoT cannot improve an Invuln save past 3++.

Why cant it improve it past a 3++?

Part of the Mark of Tzeetch rule, it can't improve a save past 3+

Ah so has no bearing on daemons of Tzeentch then, although didnt know that about Mark of tzeentch!

Best you can get is a 3++ since the mark of tzeentch doesn't work beyond a 3++

But a 3++ is still damn damn damn good, plus the grimoire can help out against enemy heldrakes, by reducing their invun.

But yeah, the grimoire works better on codex chaos daemons units, due to this.

Then an IC with the Aura/TDA and a Mark of Tzeentch. Abaddon, Ahriman, Sorceror, etc. joined to a unit with the Daemon rule

Nope none of them have the Daemon Rule. Remember you haveto target a unit consisting entirely of models with the Daemon rule. So as soon as you attach an IC you can't grimoire the unit.

It is a 3++ as Mark of Tzeentch turns off as soon as you get back past 3++. As there is no way for a Tzeentch model to get better than a 3++ without some later addition to the save the clear rule is designed to stop this type of rule getting you a 2++.

Heldrake had 5++ so 3++ with Grimoire.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Heldrake had 5++ so 3++ with Grimoire.

Or you can make an enemy heldrake drop to a 6++