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I am continuously struggling to win the war of attrition against many different forms of high LD, stubborn, and fearless troops coverring the board.

I am not even looking for Mechdar's best answer to horde, I am looking for some options. Prisms and Serpents just aren't cutting it.

How do you feel about nightspinners? Their torrent mode can clear infantry in a brutal fashion.
Alternatively you can deliver your DA earlier in the game to do their magic.
Wraithscythes are awesome for killing any infantry from teq to geq.

The overall strategies against hordes are templates, rate of fire and large blasts (preferably ignore cover). The number of wounds and ability to ignore/negate cover are usually more important than any fancy stuff.

Nightspinners are good, not great due to low AP.

Vauls Wrath are actually pretty good, very similar in utility to the Thunderfire Cannon. Also they mesh well with Mech as they will require high strength weaponry to remove.

Are you opposed to allies?

I am opposed to allies personally...Are 3 shadow weavers beet or worse than a night spinner?

This is a question of durability.

Nightspinner wins the mobility argument and Batteries win the damage output.

I run warp spiders and guardians in Wave Serpents. Infantry? no problem. medium Tanks no Prob.

I'm a huge fan of Vaul's weavers. Night Spinners are ~140 points if you really want to make use of what they offer (you can't afford to get shaken with them), and Weavers don't need to be mobile since they can take 4 T7 wounds before losing any firepower. The Weavers ignore a lot of cover and offer more sniping opportunities. They also make excellent Farseer bunkers.

Look at it this way - Weavers give you 3 blast templates of Warp Spider shots that can reach anywhere on the table for the cost of 5 Warp Spiders.

It sort of depends on what you have to deal with and where you want to be. If the support batteries are your only non mobile elements they are going to be isolated and perfect DS or speedy unit bait. If you have other rear elements or do not tend to leverage the eldar mobility to great effect then the batteries will do great.

The nightspinner is awesome against enemies who depend on area terrain or KFF fields, tyranids, etc. as it ignores cover and it has a template mode (which is the awesome mode). Torrent templates allow you to get 5 models with every shot. If you are failing to do this then you are not placing the template correctly. Small blasts will only net ~3-5 models with 3 blasts all rolling near hits. They will usually only manage an average of ~4 hits per shooting phase.

The other thing to note is the nightspinner weapon is S7/8 (doubles out necron wraiths and ork nobz) vs the battery weapon S6/7. So they can both work but you need to know where they are going and what they are doing.

In order your best options, roughly in order of points per wound;
Warp Spiders
War Walkers
Dakka Serpents (doesn't factor in the cost of the squad inside, you usually do nothing, otherwise they drop down a bit)
Jetbikes (higher if you factor in the 12" burst, lower if its just the 24" range band)
Night Spinners

If you run Support Batteries then you have to bring something to which stops people just running straight at them. If you are staying pure Eldar then that probably means a Wraithknight, he is mobile enough to cover units Outflanking or Deep Striking in near your and not much is just going to walk into charge range of one. If you are ok with allies then something like the 10 Terminator blob with Coteaz is also a nice block to park in front of them to keep units away from the Batteries.

After the tourney yesterday i am in love with Vaul's support batteries. 2 out of 3 games vs tau i was hunting has ethereal in a squad. Both times i killed him that turn and pinned the unit he was in. Grab them and snipe out the commissars in guard blobs and such. Makes them no longer ld10 and subject to the pinning from the barrage weapon.

Im also starting to like the 121 point 6 man swooping hawks unit with exarch and sunrifle. You can drop in precisely with the AP4 large blast that ignores cover, have a 50% of blinding guard squads (66% for necron and tau fire warriors), and then run behind cover. Thats a lot of utility and damage in that one little 6 man unit.

then between wave serpents and your troops you should have dakka enough to deal with enemy hordes unless they are all behind ADLs. If they are, then you are going to have to go over there and punch them.

Harlequns squads are great because the enemy has a chance to just lose his shots unless humping the harlequn squad. Not necessarily relevant all the time, but your opponent will think twice about firing at them when they have another target that they could shoot, even if the 2ndary target is worse.

Nightspear/Striking scorp combo is also fun. 2+ cover save infiltration to within 1" of enemy models. Go 2nd and assault that blob after sniping out some characters with barrage. Or be incredibly silly and steal the enemy quad gun with nightspear and precision shot all his characters out of their squad.

Could be wrong but i don't think nightspear allows the squad to infiltrate with him. It says HE can go close to the enemy. Then outflanking rangers can pop up next to him.

Mass infantry... 9 warwalkers that are twinlinked does a pretty good job. Prisms should do pretty good at S5 ap3 large blast.

 ductvader wrote:
I am continuously struggling to win the war of attrition against many different forms of high LD, stubborn, and fearless troops coverring the board.

I am not even looking for Mechdar's best answer to horde, I am looking for some options. Prisms and Serpents just aren't cutting it.

Could you please describe your struggle in more detail?

The moment I face an enemy with 40-60 infantry models dedicated to holding an objective I wince. Being able to take out those targets that would do me harm in addition to putting out enough firepower to reduce these squads enough for guardian fire is a concern. I do think a unit of support batteries would suit me well.

 ductvader wrote:
The moment I face an enemy with 40-60 infantry models dedicated to holding an objective I wince. Being able to take out those targets that would do me harm in addition to putting out enough firepower to reduce these squads enough for guardian fire is a concern. I do think a unit of support batteries would suit me well.

I speak on general culture and CSM playing, not Eldar first hand (for now !!), but it seems to me that there is cheap answers to you problems. 60 infantery model should be a third of the opposing army, give or take?

51 points jetbike units in reserve will steal their fun by turbo boosting -> contesting on the last turn?
Some rangers hidden in cover, half a table away, can force them all to go to ground?
Also, the improved WL can put quite a dent in a unit like this. Double flamers, SL / BL, rushing you way seems like somehting you have to deal with.
I also think a few WG with scythes, dropped 2' away leaves your enemy with a choice : either you don't charge and get burned, or you do and you get tied up with a resilient T6 3+ unit, that will counter burn you the turn you charge. Unless I'm mistaken, 5 WG in a WS can be dropped quickly anywhere on the table, and really put the hurt to any kind of massed infantery, from Ork boys to TEQ.

Finally, if you can't kill it, can you avoid it ? EJB or SH could contest last turn.

50 Guardsmen led by an IC is ~400 points. 30 Orks ~180..

It's a legitimate concern. The Shield doesnt have a good AP, so while ignores cover is nice, it doesnt help too much against certain infantry. Aside from that Mechdar doesnt generally have much in the form of Barrages and Templates.

Kroot Snipers, , Eldar Rangers, DE and Tyranid poison also in my meta make me say no no to Wraithlords...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I don't particulary like the Hemlock Wraithfighter...it may have a purpose in making objective campers flee?

It's just unfortunately the lesser of the two eldar fighters. It....can do that. That could be annoying. But it's slightly situational and suffers the problem of the Crimson Hunter on top of that, of getting screwed by AA.

 Titan Atlas wrote:
It's just unfortunately the lesser of the two eldar fighters. It....can do that. That could be annoying. But it's slightly situational and suffers the problem of the Crimson Hunter on top of that, of getting screwed by AA.

I agree completely, thus why I haven't mentioned it already. I also know that a comparison don't work with these two...it's like comparing A Psyker Battle Squad and some Lascannon Teams.

Was just wondering, how, if at all, it might help this problem.

 ductvader wrote:
I am continuously struggling to win the war of attrition against many different forms of high LD, stubborn, and fearless troops coverring the board.

I am not even looking for Mechdar's best answer to horde, I am looking for some options. Prisms and Serpents just aren't cutting it.

What do you run?

I just changed my list to deal with the horde-y lists I've been facing.

HQ
-Spiritseer
-Warlock (Singing Spear)

TROOP
-10 Guardian Defenders
---Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields)
-10 Guardian Defenders
---Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields)
-5 Wraithguard
---Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holo Fields)

ELITE
-7 Striking Scorpions
-7 Striking Scorpions

FAST
-Crimson Hunter
-Crimson Hunter

HEAVY
-Fire Prism (Holo Fields)
-Fire Prism (Holo Fields)
-Vaul’s Wrath Support Battery (Shadow Weaver x 3)

1848/1850

First off, I know how people feel about the Scorpions, Scorpions are what drew me to Eldar in the first place and so I want to work them into nearly every list. They just look too cool to me.

Just added the batteries.

Shuriken Cannon is on the Wraithguard Serpent because its bound to be close up and in infantry face...and wants its shields up.

Are you aware that as long as you move 6" or less the waveserpents can shoot 3 weapons at full effect?

Are you having problems getting the scorpions into CC with the large blobbs you are having trouble with? Those scorpions should whittle them down considerably.

The batteries will help against any massed infantry but are they going to end up sitting alone in your backfield or do you have something else to keep them alive?

Well I do have the Warlock for conceal when needed.

The scorpions can be placed as a threat vector to force enemies back.

I am aware of the serpent shooting too.



I have just added the scorpions...I had them in their own serpent and it was too difficult to get the assault. I haven't played since I added foot scorpions and the battery.

I think you will still struggle with massive hordes of infantry.

I'll ask this:

What do you see more, massed infantry or massed tanks? Prisms are very inefficient infantry killers and may be the best way to free up points for more templates.

Let me post my general meta

2 x infantry tau
2 x mech tau
draigowing
2 x ravenwing bikes
2x mech gaurd
2 x infantry guard
infantry space wolves
jump pack ba
terminator dark angels
chaos cultists
necron flying circus
choas daemons flying circus
necron fliers / gk infantry
infantry necrons
occassionaly Bill Kim's daemons
2 x Bling Wing
Coteaz razorback Henchmen
Deffrolla truck orks
Mech SoB
Alternating mech and infantry Ultramarines

As you can see...I need to be ready for a bit of everything.

I know you don't like the idea of allies, but I think Tau allies would really shore up the weaknesses that you currently have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A few SMS would go a long way.

So the problem lists would be 2x infantry IG, infantry necrons, and perhaps infantry tau?

Foot scorpions infiltrated in can be pretty interesting units. They draw massive amounts of fire and really punish any deployments that allow you to deploy out of LoS near their gunline.

I personally would probably go with a nightspinner or two. You can even use the fireprisms to proxy them first so you can try them out. Fireprism's can actually be converted to allow swapping the main gun to the nightspinner loadout fairly easily.

I feel that most lists will have a DS/fast assault threat which can close with the battery and take it out if it is a threat. You just don't have anything to stay back with the battery and act as bubble wrap for them without making the bubble wrap completely useless.

I don't think the Weavers are that big of a liability at all. If someone wants to use their deepstrikers or assault units to go for a 90 pt unit, so be it. It probably won't be an efficient trade though.

It is though if they are your big Anti-infantry unit in the list.

Additionally it is not like they have to send something good. Even outflanking penal legion would do it with even a little luck.

Well, the batteries do depend on warlock psychic powers and which enemy I am facing. As I said, Scorpions can work as a countercharge unit to anything I know is coming my way.

This was all brought up though because we were evaluating if I really needed the Prisms.

In my first ever Eldar game I was able to nuke the Draigowing without Prisms, massed bladestorm and Scatters finished them off. Not to mention the Hunters kill about 4 a turn.

If I lose the Prisms I think I still need lances to be put in...I could be wrong


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LValx wrote:
a 90 pt unit

My goodness, for some reason I calculated them as 40pts a model.


I have 30 more points to put into the list

With wraithguard and 2 crimson hunters you probably will not have AV13+ troubles.

AV12- can be handled fairly well with WSs and even the monofilament weapons.

I just have this picture in my head of you playing against the 60 kroot list Tau and them outshooting you at range but when your guys close their kroot outflank next to your spinners and remove them leaving you largely without the ability to remove the 3++/2++ kroot. Scorpions can definitely counter charge but do not have the numbers to bubble wrap.

I would actually recommend leaving a guardian squad back to bubble wrap if it is necessary. They have the bodies to actually deny area to an opponent.

Couldn't my vehicles do this as well?

Would Warlock Protect be a worthwhile use here if I were to get it? I always have conceal too?

Just realized a Warlock can shoot the battery at BS5.