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Hey all,

The other day I played against my friend's very unusual CSM list, and I have to say, it did not go too well. Albeit I rolled worse than average, but it was clear to me that my army had no way to counter his HQs, who just roflstomped my whole army. Game was at 1500 pts.

His list was something like:

Daemon Prince with power armor, wings, BLACK MACE (here is where the discussion begins) gift of mutation (?)
Juggernaught Lord with axe of blind fury, gift of mutation etc (not really important)
Two squads of 10 (or 8 don't remember) x Khorne bikers w/ champion with lightning claw.
4 squads of 22 cultists (to make 88... oh Khorne).

I was not afraid of the cultists at all, and the bikes were a threat, but beatable. The real issue came down to his Daemon Prince and Jugger Lord just wrecking my entire force single-handedly.

First game I played was with 15 terminator DW list + Black Templar allies (this is just a fun list I threw together, not my usual). My BT absorbed most of the bikes and my chaplain o' murder managed to kill just about anything he touched in a challenge (aka he karate chopped bikes in half all game long). So he was boss. HOWEVER, the CSM Daemon Prince absolutely trashed my entire army. I managed to deal one wound to him with an assault cannon before he charged a squad of TH/SS terminators and killed the sgt in a challenge. Killed another two via the black mace's AOE thing, and then wiped the remaining two terminators the following turn without ever even giving me a change to strike back (due to my initiative 1). So, my tank squad that should be able to absorb all those ap2 hits died in one turn. From there, he managed to just fly up to each terminator squad I had on the table and kill the whole squad with challenges, forcing that AOE strength test, and then striking first against the whole squad. I never got to swing against him and he killed 10 terminators + Belial. I even focus fired him with everything I could the turns he wasn't in combat and never took a wound past the first assault cannon wound I caused.

Second game I used my standard DW + Green list of 15 termies, Belial, Ladn Raider, twin whirlwinds and a wniper scout squad with aegis and icarus cannon. Again, same thing happened, dropped in the terminators near my lines, twin linked fired everything I had at the DP and he took ONE wound. Fired the Land Raider, everything. Nothing happened. Next turn he and the bikes charged my termintors / land raider and the same thing happened. Challenged the sgts, AOE got a kill or two, challenged Belial, murdered him easily, AOE got another kill, etc. No swings in retaliation occured and his list basically just got to wipe me off the field if we kept playing any further.

So, how do I beat this stupid seemingly OP Daemon Prince. It wasn't even like he looks all that amazing on paper or anything, but he can wipe my whole army almost single handedly. Even TH/SS terminators just got pulped bc of his high initiative and the AOE. There was literally nothing I could do it seemed. So, what are all of your best strategies against this. My main answers are: Deathwing Knights and/or Black Knights, and / or plasma vets in a drop pod. Just need to focus this thing down before it can even move, but that seems to be easier said than done.

Thanks for any help

- VardenV2

Deathwing Knights should just stomp a DP out. He challenges, you decline. He fights your squad at int 8. Somethings will live to swing back. Lets just say 2 models live to this point. You swing back with 4 attacks, use smite to make them Str10 AP2. You hit on 4's so avgs. say 2 hit. Now you wound on 2's. You put him on invulns and if one slips through you insta death him for doubling his toughness. After combat the mace ability doesn't trigger now since he's dead.

Bloodthirsters... well that's another story.

Well for a start he can't take gifts of mutation on his daemon prince, and MUST take a Chaos Mark. A unit or 2 of Terminators with TH/SS should sort it out.

Focussing fire on it for a turn or 2 should deal with it too. remember that he only has a 5+ invulnerable save.

Daemon Princes can't take chaos marks, they take the slightly crappier (or better in some cases) Daemon of- rules.

So, how do I beat this stupid seemingly OP Daemon Prince. It wasn't even like he looks all that amazing on paper or anything, but he can wipe my whole army almost single handedly. Even TH/SS terminators just got pulped bc of his high initiative and the AOE. There was literally nothing I could do it seemed. So, what are all of your best strategies against this. My main answers are: Deathwing Knights and/or Black Knights, and / or plasma vets in a drop pod. Just need to focus this thing down before it can even move, but that seems to be easier said than done.

Well, the Black Mace states that if a model suffers an unsaved wound, it immediately takes a toughness test. However, the additional tests for models within 3" are done at the end of the phase. If the DP assaults a unit of SS TH termies, you should be receiving some attacks back before the test. A Daemon Price has five base attacks, which means six on the charge +D6 from the Mace. Even with 10 attacks, the net result should be around 5 wounds, which only equates to around 2 dead SS TH termies. The attacks back may not kill the Prince, but it will likely get very crippled by the combat.

In addition, you can dedicate a large amount of your shooting against it to stop it before it hits combat. If you ground the Prince, it should be easy to finish off. If it gets into CC and kill off one of your units, it will be on the ground again.

 Castiel wrote:
Well for a start he can't take gifts of mutation on his daemon prince, and MUST take a Chaos Mark. A unit or 2 of Terminators with TH/SS should sort it out.

Focussing fire on it for a turn or 2 should deal with it too. remember that he only has a 5+ invulnerable save.

They can take a gift. They just are not champions of chaos and recieve no further boon table rolls.

 Castiel wrote:
Well for a start he can't take gifts of mutation on his daemon prince, and MUST take a Chaos Mark. A unit or 2 of Terminators with TH/SS should sort it out.

Focussing fire on it for a turn or 2 should deal with it too. remember that he only has a 5+ invulnerable save.

Princes can take GoM but after the begin of the game they are not able to roll on the boon table as they lack Champion of Chaos. It's probably not intended but as they have access to gifts and artifacts they are able to buy GoM without being normally able to roll on the table after a kill in a challenge.

 JGrand wrote:

So, how do I beat this stupid seemingly OP Daemon Prince. It wasn't even like he looks all that amazing on paper or anything, but he can wipe my whole army almost single handedly. Even TH/SS terminators just got pulped bc of his high initiative and the AOE. There was literally nothing I could do it seemed. So, what are all of your best strategies against this. My main answers are: Deathwing Knights and/or Black Knights, and / or plasma vets in a drop pod. Just need to focus this thing down before it can even move, but that seems to be easier said than done.

Well, the Black Mace states that if a model suffers an unsaved wound, it immediately takes a toughness test. However, the additional tests for models within 3" are done at the end of the phase. If the DP assaults a unit of SS TH termies, you should be receiving some attacks back before the test. A Daemon Price has five base attacks, which means six on the charge +D6 from the Mace. Even with 10 attacks, the net result should be around 5 wounds, which only equates to around 2 dead SS TH termies. The attacks back may not kill the Prince, but it will likely get very crippled by the combat.

In addition, you can dedicate a large amount of your shooting against it to stop it before it hits combat. If you ground the Prince, it should be easy to finish off. If it gets into CC and kill off one of your units, it will be on the ground again.

Ok thank you, that helps me a lot. We did the AOE rules incorrectly if that was the case then. In both combats he managed to roll a 5, and a 6, so he got something like 11 attacks on the charge and caused 10 wounds. I failed 4 I think so :/ I guess slightly bad luck on my part. But we were ruling the AOE at the initiative 8, so he killed the squads before I could hit back. That makes the TH/SS combo better as longas I cause one wound he becomes initiative 1 thanks to the hammers

I will inform my opponent of our error and see how it changes things. He was still tough though, and I didn't seem to have enough shooting to be able to really do anything to return. It was also that I was committing half my army to kill this one guy, which allowed his bikes to freely rampage across the whole board.

- VardenV2

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Daemon Princes can't take chaos marks, they take the slightly crappier (or better in some cases) Daemon of- rules.

CSM Deamon Princes Can take marks as stated in the codex, due to them being CSM Deamon Princes they are out of CSM Codex

stichfitz wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Daemon Princes can't take chaos marks, they take the slightly crappier (or better in some cases) Daemon of- rules.

CSM Deamon Princes Can take marks as stated in the codex, due to them being CSM Deamon Princes they are out of CSM Codex

Nope, they have to choose "Daemon of..." and they carry different rules then the marks of chaos.

 Goat wrote:

stichfitz wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Daemon Princes can't take chaos marks, they take the slightly crappier (or better in some cases) Daemon of- rules.

CSM Deamon Princes Can take marks as stated in the codex, due to them being CSM Deamon Princes they are out of CSM Codex

Nope, they have to choose "Daemon of..." and they carry different rules then the marks of chaos.

Correct. It dosent say anywhere in the CSM DP entry that they can take marks, they can only (and must) take "Daemon of X".

In this case he chose Daemon of Khorne, which I believe gave him Hatred, for all those re-rolls in cc. It really hurts x___x especially when coupled with a 6 for his daemon weapon roll.

There is not much you can do against a good daemon weapon roll but if he takes DoK you just should try to force grounding tests and shoot him before he is cc.

 VardenV2 wrote:
In this case he chose Daemon of Khorne, which I believe gave him Hatred, for all those re-rolls in cc. It really hurts x___x especially when coupled with a 6 for his daemon weapon roll.

Khorne gives Furious Charge.

DPs have VotLW that gives Hatred for Marines.

 minigun762 wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:
In this case he chose Daemon of Khorne, which I believe gave him Hatred, for all those re-rolls in cc. It really hurts x___x especially when coupled with a 6 for his daemon weapon roll.

Khorne gives Furious Charge.

DPs have VotLW that gives Hatred for Marines.

Ah, yes, you are correct. Either way, he has anger issues bc apparently daddy Khorne wasn't very nice to him growing up in the warp.

 Goat wrote:
Deathwing Knights should just stomp a DP out. He challenges, you decline. He fights your squad at int 8. Somethings will live to swing back. Lets just say 2 models live to this point. You swing back with 4 attacks, use smite to make them Str10 AP2. You hit on 4's so avgs. say 2 hit. Now you wound on 2's. You put him on invulns and if one slips through you insta death him for doubling his toughness. After combat the mace ability doesn't trigger now since he's dead.

Bloodthirsters... well that's another story.

accepting the challenge sounds like the problem.

Oh a KDP is going to be a ragey little jerk!
Even worse when he has AoBF that adds actual Rage.

Then he'll Furiously Hate you with all of his Rage!