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So I stopped playing right when 4th ed started, and I had a Flesh Tearers army that did pretty well for itself (even playing with the old FT chapter approved rules!). I've recently started playing again but have yet to field that army. I was excited about having my Cretacia boys take to the field of battle again and am even considering getting myself Chapter Master Seth, but I see talk all over this forum about how weak the BA are in 6th. Why is that? What are the biggest changes or what about the BA dex makes them so weak? Since I've only made theorietical army lists and won't be able to play again for a few weeks, I want to get as much info as I can before I fight with my FT army.

In general armies that want to be ripping and tearing have trouble getting into combat. I never played 4th so i can't really speak as to changes, but from fingering through a BA codex they appear to really like beating things and that just usually involves being shot 2 or 3 times unless you are lucky enough to have your vanguard (or whatever the jump pack elites are called) deepstrike within charge range on turn 2 and even then potentially taking wounds from overwatch.

That said once they get into close combat they should be kings, until they need to get into combat again.

Problems with BA:

1) Assault in general got nerfed in 6th

2) FC lost +1 init

3) No assault out of non-assault transports, even if they didn't move

4) Universal rules nailed most BA HQs hard: Dante is init 1, Mephiston is AP3

5) FNP is less efficacious against small arms fire, like pulse rifles

6) New Xeno lists can put out crazy firepower and sometimes crazy overwatch

7) Stormraven, our primary anti-helldrake tech, sucks balls against the Vendetta

8) Speaking of which, the helldrake exists. That makes us weaker in and of itself.

9) Overcosted specialty troops. The BA have lots of things that cost more than the standard 18 pt assault marine, none of which are significantly more survivable. For example, the prevalence of plasma in the meta makes sanguinary guards super overcosted.

10) DC got better, but have flawed deployment options. Jump packs cost too much, drop pods don't allow assault, and the LR is very pricey. I prefer the LR myself, because sometimes you want a turn one assault (SW drop lists, I'm looking at you)

11) BA aren't even that good in HTH when faced with something like a plague marine squad or infantry blob. ASM on the assault only get three swings each at WS 4. Those that survive, that is. That's just not taking enough bodies off the field when faced with things like ATSKNF 50 man blobs.

Blood Angels were really good in 5th edition, but have suffered several nerfs from 6th.

- 50% of your force must start on the board now; so that hurts Descent of Angels style lists.
- Feel-No-Pain dropping to a 5+ reduced overall toughness.
- The Storm Raven is now no longer a vehicle that is special unto them.
- Blood-Lance wrecked the tank littered fields of 5th, but with lack of vehicles this power sees less play.
- Overall nerfs to close-combat hurt one of the Blood Angels primary battlefield focuses.

These are just the things that I can think of off the top of my head without the Blood Angels codex in hand. The army is not unusable, but you will need to focus a bit more on your shooting strengths with a bit of close combat thrown in. Fast rhinos means getting into double tap range quickly and fast predators are nasty. Baal Predators I imagine are also still relatively decent with their ability to shred infantry with more armies putting boots on the ground.

Actually, the BA were aging badly by the end of 5th. The GK could field much more potent lists and the other lists were easily adapting to BA shenangians. At least with players who were even average students of the game.

Descent of Angels never was that good, because you were never allowed to assault. Deep striking and reserves were still asking for trouble in 5th. I butchered every DoA list I fought in 5th. Piecemealing your own list and opening yourself up to free assaults was a disaster.

I don't care who gets the Stormraven. It's simply not that good for the cost. It's 200+ points for 3 HP. That's pretty fragile. The existence of the Vendetta makes this thing a dubious choice. I run them only because I fear the helldrake more.

Blood Lance was never a staple power for me; BA have access to tons of melta.

And, yeah, after the Eldar dropped, the BA are getting close to the "unusable" realm *if you play against people who know what they are doing; ie non-casual play*. Can't tell you how much fun it is getting shot up by pseudo-rending shuriken catapults and then getting overwatched by huge guardian blobs.

Several things really. First is price. You're paying a premium for many special rules that worked great in 4th-5th ed, but not so much in 6th. Taking assault marines as troops is pricey; you can remove the jump packs & be regular infantry & take a Rhino/Razorback for free, but you can no longer assault out of a Rhino, even if it was stationary that turn. If you keep the jump packs, you get DoA, but all that does is bunch you up nicely for return fire. Also, there are a few models out there w/ the 'Interceptor' USR that allows your opponent to shoot your models coming in from reserve the turn they arrive (i.e. in your movement phase), so before they even get to shoot, they possibly have taken casualties. 6th is a largely shooting-centric edition & many people are moving away from mobile mech lists for more semi-mobile infantry lists.

Also, those Rhino's & Razorbacks mentioned earlier are paying a premium for being Fast. Which means absolutely nothing for Rhino's/Razorbacks. It no longer allows you to move further, it just means you can shoot an add'l weapon & full BS. So the only real benefit is for the Razorback, but not enough to justify points costs. I could see it providing a benefit to the pred's & vindi's, but again, probably not enough to justify the premium you pay for the rule.

Then, Furious Charge got a nerf - it no longer raises your initiative on the turn you charge. As most BA squads (especially the assault squads) were outnumbered by most other SM's, that initiative boost was a real game changer - it allowed your fewer models to strike first to mitigate return attacks. Not anymore. You may be stronger on the charge, but you still hit @ I4, so other MEQ's are hitting you simo, taking away a big advantage.

Their HQ's are insanely overpriced for what they do, so essentially, right from the start, you are @ a huge points difference between 'comparable' armies. They can still work (& well, there's a guy @ my FLGS who still does better than avg w/ them), but they've lost a huge part of their punch & are across the board more expensive than any other SM army, save of course GK.

~Vryce

Vyrce has the right of it.

One of the main problems we face is that we're very overcosted for the effectiveness shown on the table. Blood Angels are still viable but they're not competitive. 6th ed is an arms race for shooting prowess, BA just can't deliver the effective shooting needed to compete and we're now often cut down to be truly effectice in CC when we make it.

Another problem is all our 'fluffy' unirs are again really pointy, so it's difficult to write a decent list that follows the background.


I've still had a fair bit of success with my BA's in a friendly environment but you probably won't get far if it's really competitive in your area.

D

I constantly face off against a cocktail of Vendettas, helldrakes, and shooty Tau/Eldar. As you might imagine, I'm really sick of the 5th edition codex.

Its been said, and should be said again.

Helldrakes. As long as this model is in play, BA will be fighting a major uphill battle.

Actually, if either the Stormraven or the Vendetta were appropriately costed, I wouldn't mind using the Stormraven to hard counter the helldrake as much. But the IG are the whores of the galaxy and in the words of Adm Ackbar, "We can't repel firepower of that magnitude!". Either the Stormraven needs to be costed to reflect the Vendetta or vice versa.

I *almost* hate the Vendetta more than the helldrake.

In addition to the above, Blood Angels can't make a decent TAC list. They're ok if you're tailoring towards an opponent because they do still have tools at their disposal, but if they don't know what they're facing then they just don't have enough versatile options. Worst of all, they're an assault army with mediocre assault units.

 Vryce wrote:
Snip
Also, those Rhino's & Razorbacks mentioned earlier are paying a premium for being Fast. Which means absolutely nothing for Rhino's/Razorbacks. It no longer allows you to move further, it just means you can shoot an add'l weapon & full BS. So the only real benefit is for the Razorback, but not enough to justify points costs. I could see it providing a benefit to the pred's & vindi's, but again, probably not enough to justify the premium you pay for the rule.

~Vryce

You might want to reread Fast as it does let them go further...

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, if either the Stormraven or the Vendetta were appropriately costed, I wouldn't mind using the Stormraven to hard counter the helldrake as much. But the IG are the whores of the galaxy and in the words of Adm Ackbar, "We can't repel firepower of that magnitude!". Either the Stormraven needs to be costed to reflect the Vendetta or vice versa.

I *almost* hate the Vendetta more than the helldrake.

Actually I've said this before, the Stormraven is appropriately costed. The problem with it is that like many GW models you end up paying for things you don't really need or want, in many cases.

IF you look at the Vendetta. You get 3 lascannons twin linked at BS3, AV 12,12,10, transport capacity, the ability to jump out, or hover.
If you look at the Storm Raven You get 2 Twin linked weapons (lets say multi-melta and lascannon) and 4 Missiles S8 AP1 at BS4, you are AV 12,12,12, You are immune to Melta, you have a better jump out rule, you have machine spirit, you can transport 2 units (a squad and a walker)

So if you look at abilities the raven should cost more. It is fairly priced. The problem is you simply don't care about half that stuff. Certainly not all the time. Especially in 6th. If I want to be a gun boat, maybe I don't want to pay for carrying a dread, maybe I don't want to pay for melta immunity. BS4 twin linked is not all that much better than BS3 Twin linked (about 13% better, but you are already hitting 75% at BS 3.). Machine spirit is nice but not a neccessity, you don't have that many guns to begin with..

If say that started the Raven at 130 points with the Melta and the lascannon and 2 missiles and said you can take Cermite plating for 15 points, and Machine spirit for 30, and 2 more missiles for 10-15 points each. You can add a dread carrier (crane or something) for 25-30 points. So you could build it to fit what your purpose is for it. It would be a great flyer. (perhaps the best) The way it is now, you get all that stuff whether you want it or not and you pay for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is something GW does to a lot of units in this game, it gives them all kinds of abilites that are not great, or situational and you pay for those abilities.

By that definition, I agree with you. But too many of the bells and whistles do not contribute to combat effectiveness. Yes, if the Stormraven started at 130 and all that stuff was optional, then, yes, it would instantly become the best flyer because a skyfire MM is $$.

Unfortunately, we are forced to take the stuff and that makes the thing instantly a dubious take because of its HP/point cost ratio.

You are correct Breng. The problem with the Storm Raven is that you take a bunch of options you really don't want. 4 bloodstrike missiles? Sign me up, if I live to do a second fire phase I'll probably use all 2 each phase. Transport capacity? Pointless unless I WANT to die, as even a non-double pen melta has a good chance of penetrating.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
In addition to the above, Blood Angels can't make a decent TAC list. They're ok if you're tailoring towards an opponent because they do still have tools at their disposal, but if they don't know what they're facing then they just don't have enough versatile options. Worst of all, they're an assault army with mediocre assault units.

Pretty much this. All serious arguments that BA are still "middle tier" seem to involve list tailoring. You bring up TAC,and their arguments wither on the vine. The Vendetta/helldrake quandry is bad enough.

Thanks for all the input, everybody. Looks like I'll be trying out different tactics and switching around some weapons and units when I play. Let's hope for the best!

Fast transports do indeed have some utility. They can move a pretty impressive 24" in a single turn. That's not a terrible trick, but in the scope of how armies work in 6th edition, they will likely take horrid casualties after such a move.

Except it doesn't let them move farther in the movement phase (which is when it matters).. it lets them do a flat out which is inferior to normal movement.

No longer can we move 18" and pop smoke. I have 6 armies and none of them have been destroyed by such a large collection of nerfs as have my BA. Very depressing.

Yeah, and they are all subtle nerfs, too. They sneak up on you.

Martel732 wrote:
By that definition, I agree with you. But too many of the bells and whistles do not contribute to combat effectiveness. Yes, if the Stormraven started at 130 and all that stuff was optional, then, yes, it would instantly become the best flyer because a skyfire MM is $$.

Unfortunately, we are forced to take the stuff and that makes the thing instantly a dubious take because of its HP/point cost ratio.

Correct being appropriately costed does not a good unit make. Too often people equate, underpowered with over costed. You get what you pay for with the storm raven. You just don't want what you pay for. IS it terrible, not really, but it is too expensive to spam, and gets taken down by plenty of flyers that cost less.

That said when the Vendetta gets rebooted I expect a price jump for it.

I sure hope so. I try not to be a hater, but the Vendetta is beyond the pale for the price.

It's just... really dated. The codex isn't priced for 6th (no surprise) and the mechanics for getting them into the CC they want have been changed.

Martel732 wrote:
I *almost* hate the Vendetta more than the helldrake.

The Vendetta will be fixed when the IG book comes out. At the rate GW is going, that should be at the end of the year.

On that note, I find the stormraven to be a very good vehicle for its points. It really has a lot of flexability that you can bring to the party, and I would take them over land raiders for C:SM and BA lists.

Look at all the new flyers. They are all expensive, and all of them are considered 'meh' by most players. DA and Tau flyers in particular. The new Eldar flyer packs a lot of punch, but its very fragile.

I expect that is the trend we will see. The real test will be to see what the cost of flyers is for C:SM when the new books is released.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I *almost* hate the Vendetta more than the helldrake.

The Vendetta will be fixed when the IG book comes out. At the rate GW is going, that should be at the end of the year.

On that note, I find the stormraven to be a very good vehicle for its points. It really has a lot of flexability that you can bring to the party, and I would take them over land raiders for C:SM and BA lists.

Look at all the new flyers. They are all expensive, and all of them are considered 'meh' by most players. DA and Tau flyers in particular. The new Eldar flyer packs a lot of punch, but its very fragile.

I expect that is the trend we will see. The real test will be to see what the cost of flyers is for C:SM when the new books is released.

The Talon has already been repriced since 6th dropped and they could have done the same to the Raven at that time if they wanted to. I assume both Marine fliers will stay right where they're at. You're right that, by 6th ed standards, the Raven is excellent and appropriately priced. Until the next IG book though, it is irrelevant to compare the Raven to the DA and Tau fighters, because the only comparison that matters is the Vendetta. For only about 100 points, you can upgrade your Raven to a better AA flier that includes a scoring unit and a decent psyker (that is, plasma vets and a primaris)

Tomjoad is right; the only comparison is the Vendetta, because that's what you will see. Not the other ones for the most part.

My fear is that the Vendetta will not be repriced in the IG book, since GW passed on repricing it once already. The goodies forced upon the Stormraven make it a mediocre unit maximum. I can't call it good even stretching hard.

Other people have already stated what's currently wrong with the BA better than I can right now, so I'll just quickly go over some of the stuff that they still have that's interesting.

Front AV13 Dreads/CC Dreads. Furioso Dreadnoughts are still quite good, as they can't get Krak'd to death. Blood Talons are still great against any non-terminator infantry, and with a Libby nearby giving you Prescience, you can tear through large blobs really really fast.

Mephiston is AP3 now on his weapon, but other than that he's not terrible. Just avoid getting him into terminator squads and he'll still make it happen. It largely depends on your meta.

Fast Predators and Baal Predators. You can do a semi-AV13 wall that moves 12" every turn. This is actually probably the most interesting thing to me right now about BA. Normally Predators are just static gun platforms, but with BA they can still be effective on the move.

You can still do Sternguard in Drop-pods, or Furiosos in Drop-pods.

Mech lists seem like they could be an interesting and viable choice if you're playing BA. As people take more plasma and less melta, pressuring them with an AV13 Front Armor 12" move or drop-pod vehicle list could still do quite well.

Librarian w/ Divination, Jump-pack.
2 x Furioso w/ Blood Talons in Drop Pod
3 x Baal Pred
3 x Predator
Assault Marines hiding behind the Predators
Sanguinary Priests (They're still good, just not stupid good)

Something like this would be interesting to me, using the remaining strengths of Blood Angels.

AV 13 wall is decent, but Vendetta air-cav crushes it. Among other builds. But Vendetta air-cav is the first one that comes to mind.

Martel732 wrote:
AV 13 wall is decent, but Vendetta air-cav crushes it. Among other builds. But Vendetta air-cav is the first one that comes to mind.

The necrons don't particularly seem to care about that, although when they do it Anni barges are deceptively good at anti air.

And also Ghost ark+Res orb warriors are more or less unkillable.