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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 11:21:42
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23079276
The UK looks set to become the first country to allow the creation of babies using DNA from three people, after the government backed the IVF technique.
It will produce draft regulations later this year and the procedure could be offered within two years.
Experts say three-person IVF could eliminate debilitating and potentially fatal mitochondrial diseases that are passed on from mother to child.
Opponents say it is unethical and could set the UK on a "slippery slope".
They also argue that affected couples could adopt or use egg donors instead.
Mitochondria are the tiny, biological "power stations" that give the body energy. They are passed from a mother, through the egg, to her child.
Defective mitochondria affect one in every 6,500 babies. This can leave them starved of energy, resulting in muscle weakness, blindness, heart failure and death in the most extreme cases.
Research suggests that using mitochondria from a donor egg can prevent the diseases.
It is envisaged that up to 10 couples a year would benefit from the treatment.
However, it would result in babies having DNA from two parents and a tiny amount from a third donor as the mitochondria themselves have their own DNA.
'Clearly sensitive'
Earlier this year, a public consultation by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) concluded there was "general support" for the idea and that there was no evidence that the advanced form of IVF was unsafe.
The chief medical officer for England, Prof Dame Sally Davies, said: "Scientists have developed ground-breaking new procedures which could stop these disease being passed on, bringing hope to many families seeking to prevent their future children inheriting them.
"It's only right that we look to introduce this life-saving treatment as soon as we can."
She said there were "clearly some sensitive issues here" but said she was "personally very comfortable" with altering mitochondria.
Scientists have devised two techniques that allow them to take the genetic information from the mother and place it into the egg of a donor with healthy mitochondria
Method 1; Embryo Repair
1) Two eggs are fertilised with sperm, creating an embryo from the intended parents and another from the donors 2) The pronuclei, which contain genetic information, are removed from both embryos but only the parents' is kept 3) A healthy embryo is created by adding the parents' pronuclei to the donor embryo, which is finally implanted into the womb
Method 2; Egg Repair
1) Eggs from a mother with damaged mitochondria and a donor with healthy mitochondria are collected 2) The majority of the genetic material is removed from both eggs 3) The mother's genetic material is inserted into the donor egg, which can be fertilised by sperm
The result is a baby with genetic information from three people.
They would have more than 20,000 genes from their parents and 37 mitochondrial genes from a donor.
It is a change that would have ramifications through the generations as scientists would be altering human genetic inheritance.
Objections to the procedure have been raised ever since it was first mooted.
Dr David King, the director of Human Genetics Alert, said: "These techniques are unnecessary and unsafe and were in fact rejected by the majority of consultation responses.
'Designer baby'
"It is a disaster that the decision to cross the line that will eventually lead to a eugenic designer baby market should be taken on the basis of an utterly biased and inadequate consultation."
One of the main concerns raised in the HFEA's public consultation was of a "slippery slope" which could lead to other forms of genetic modification.
Draft regulations will be produced this year with a final version expected to be debated and voted on in Parliament during 2014.
Newcastle University is pioneering one of the techniques that could be used for three-person IVF.
Prof Doug Turnbull, the director of the Wellcome Trust Centre for Mitochondrial Research at the university, said he was "delighted".
He said: "This is excellent news for families with mitochondrial disease.
"This will give women who carry these diseased genes more reproductive choice and the opportunity to have children free of mitochondrial disease. I am very grateful to all those who have supported this work."
The fine details of the regulations are still uncertain, yet it is expected to be for only the most severe cases.
It is also likely that children would have no right to know who the egg donor was and that any children resulting from the procedure would be monitored closely for the rest of their lives.
Sir John Tooke, the president of the Academy of Medical Sciences, said: "Introducing regulations now will ensure that there is no avoidable delay in these treatments reaching affected families once there is sufficient evidence of safety and efficacy.
"It is also a positive step towards ensuring the UK remains at the forefront of cutting-edge research in this area."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 11:41:21
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Seems like a good solution to a unpleasant problem that some couples have encounted.
Cue bible thumping, pitchfork and torch wielding lunatics to piss on some other peoples fires.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 11:57:34
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot
Australia
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And yet threesomes still frowned upon....
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4th company
The Screaming Beagles of Helicia V
Hive Fleet Jumanji
I'll die before I surrender Tim! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 12:22:48
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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Mitochondria have tiny amounts of DNA, this really is a mountain out of a molehill.
I'm sure that he usual suspects will be complaining about 'playing god' though, as usual.
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The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 18:07:09
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
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This is the first thing that jumped into my mind.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 18:17:11
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Other than the few diseases they can cause, does mitochondrial DNA even have a real impact on who you are as an individual?
If it wasn't called "DNA", this wouldn't even be given a second glance. Of COURSE you should use someone else's mitochondrial DNA if you carry a mitochondrial disease.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/28 18:17:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 19:13:42
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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Rented Tritium wrote:Other than the few diseases they can cause, does mitochondrial DNA even have a real impact on who you are as an individual?.
Extremely unlikely. Mitochondrial DNA codes for enzymes which produce ATP (the body's main power source) and for molecules that move RNA around during protein synthesis. Its highly unlikely that they will have much of an impact on an individual if they are working correctly, IMO anyway.
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The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 19:38:28
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Mitochondrial DNA has no effect on you as a person, it isn't part of the DNA in the nucleus that determines your phenotype but part of the DNA in the cell that runs operations like respiration. Mitochondrial DNA is only passed down the female line (because the cell of a fertilised embryo comes from the female) meaning that the DNA of the third person is lost if they have boys.
Not all DNA codes for your physical makeup and the tiny fraction that certainly cannot is Mitochondrial DNA. The DNA in it is for metabolic functions, you might as well complain if the Golgi in your cells come from someone other than your parents. Ultimately it doesn't matter. When they start splicing DNA from other people into your nuclear DNA let me know, the objections to this are scaremongering and ignorant. The illnesses, disabilities and suffering that can be avoided are quite significant.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 21:19:40
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator
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The bigger concern is the animal/human hybrid embryos.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 21:41:28
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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Concern for its AWESOMENESS, I'm sure you meant?
Ocelot-human hybrid. Called it first, called it here.
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[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 21:43:25
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Of course, but at that point, why not just get rid of ethics as a whole?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 21:48:47
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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Mr Hyena wrote:Of course, but at that point, why not just get rid of ethics as a whole?
If there's something unethical about ocelot-human hybrids, then I don't want to know what's ethical.
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[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 21:58:48
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Never seen the movie Splice?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 22:04:39
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Huge Hierodule
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
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Screw that.
Look at the koala. It spends 23 hours a day asleep, and the remaining 1 hour either eating or bonking. It has no natural predators. It is completely adorable.
If I'm gonna be spliced with an animal, I'm picking a koala.
On topic...Umm...So what?
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Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote:I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 22:08:05
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Kovnik Obama wrote:
Concern for its AWESOMENESS, I'm sure you meant?
Ocelot-human hybrid. Called it first, called it here.
Humanity will have reached it evolutionary zenith.
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 22:12:45
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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Dude, does this : looks like this : ?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/28 22:17:47
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/28 23:51:18
Subject: Re:UK government backs three-person IVF
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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so... women who get this Mitochondria thing done are going to give birth to kittens?
THAT'S AWESOME!!!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/28 23:51:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 02:49:42
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Howard A Treesong wrote:Mitochondrial DNA has no effect on you as a person, it isn't part of the DNA in the nucleus that determines your phenotype but part of the DNA in the cell that runs operations like respiration. Mitochondrial DNA is only passed down the female line (because the cell of a fertilised embryo comes from the female) meaning that the DNA of the third person is lost if they have boys.
I think just a slight mistake there.
If they have boys, the donors Mitochondrial DNA is still present in that child. He still has mitochondria after all. Now if that boy has a child, then the donor mitochondrial DNA leaves the gene pool for that family and the child will have the mitochondrial DNA of whoevers egg he fertilized.
If they have a daughter then her children will have the mitochondrial DNA of the donor and it will continue to be passed down to any female children.
Not that this has any real bearing on the story though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 03:43:20
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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One real concern is the long-term health of the individual that is born from this procedure. I would like to see the results of numerous studies of other primates and mammals that were long term.
On the face of it, it has been described in a rather simplistic and mechanical fashion. Clearly, fertilization techniques and manipulating the DNA of an egg are very advanced but there is also a process of going from an egg to an adult and then many years of life as an adult.
It is in no way anti-scientific to be concerned that this procedure could lead to downstream negative health effects of the child. Many people that object to cloning, are concerned about this kind of risk as well. The immediate result of the procedure may appear reliable but as developmental change occurs, things are less predictable.
To me, the troubling ethical issue is wrapped up in the decision to have a child that requires an unproven medical intervention that may result in poor health for the child. I think it is extremely selfish for a person to take the risk. It is the child being created that is at risk and the only reason that they are having a child of their own instead of adopting is pure ego.
Thus, there are definitely scientific and ethical reasons beyond the objections of religious fanatics that need to be discussed in this application of molecular biology to human reproduction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 06:47:28
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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JWhex wrote:
To me, the troubling ethical issue is wrapped up in the decision to have a child that requires an unproven medical intervention that may result in poor health for the child. .
Mitochondrial disease can be quite literally crippling and leaves sufferers with a very poor standard of life (and often leads to an early death). The small risk of deleterious consequences is more than outweighted by the benefits. There has also been succesful animal studies, and in vitro human studies, on this procedure.
DNA will not be manipulated, mitochondial DNA and nuclear DNA are completely distinct and are located in discrete organelles within the cell. All that happens is that the nucleus of a fertilised egg is transfered to a donor egg that has had its nucleus removed but which still has the rest of its cellular machinery intact.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/29 06:48:23
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 12:01:57
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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Palindrome wrote:JWhex wrote:
To me, the troubling ethical issue is wrapped up in the decision to have a child that requires an unproven medical intervention that may result in poor health for the child. .
Mitochondrial disease can be quite literally crippling and leaves sufferers with a very poor standard of life (and often leads to an early death). The small risk of deleterious consequences is more than outweighted by the benefits. There has also been succesful animal studies, and in vitro human studies, on this procedure.
DNA will not be manipulated, mitochondial DNA and nuclear DNA are completely distinct and are located in discrete organelles within the cell. All that happens is that the nucleus of a fertilised egg is transfered to a donor egg that has had its nucleus removed but which still has the rest of its cellular machinery intact.
Yeah, yeah I understand all that, my post doc was in molecular evolution and specifically the study mtDNA and rRNA sequences. The choice is not just between having the treatment or not, the choice is between treatment, no treatment or adopting. Guess which choice poses zero relative risk to the infant? You cant say there is no risk to the child, we wont know that for decades after many have been born.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 12:16:11
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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That argument could be used against all IVF. And I can see validity in that, medical science should surely prioritise the living rather than help people have children when that isn't essential or a moral right to have your own children. I say that as someone who has had to face fertility issues and accept how unlikely it is to have children with my current partner.
I suppose the question is how much medicine should prioritise quality of life, and how much having your own children does improve your quality of life. People generally seem to prefer the idea of having their own children, how much medicine should facilitate that could be debated, but the use of hybrid embryos is a tangent of a bigger issue.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 12:28:43
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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Howard A Treesong wrote:That argument could be used against all IVF. And I can see validity in that, medical science should surely prioritise the living rather than help people have children when that isn't essential or a moral right to have your own children. I say that as someone who has had to face fertility issues and accept how unlikely it is to have children with my current partner.
I suppose the question is how much medicine should prioritise quality of life, and how much having your own children does improve your quality of life. People generally seem to prefer the idea of having their own children, how much medicine should facilitate that could be debated, but the use of hybrid embryos is a tangent of a bigger issue.
No, you cannot make that claim against all IVF treatments at this stage of the game. Thats just not an accurate reflection of where medical science is in 2013.
There have been huge failures in ethics surrounding IVF treatments and fertility drugs though, no doubt about that. The Pharm industry knows how weak some people are and how desperate they can be to have children, and they prey on that weakness.
I am criticizing the Pharm industry here, not people that are preyed upon.
When a woman has 4, 5 or more babies at once it is not a miracle as reported on the news, its biology gone wrong, usually due to a fertility treatment. Human women have two boobs, so one or two babies is what you expect. Human females should not be birthing a litter.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 14:06:36
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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I think we might be talking at crossed purposes, I don't disagree with anything you said.
One point though, we're coming at this from different cultures. In the US all healthcare is private so I suppose people can pay for what they want. In the UK we have nationalised healthcare and when you use that, there is the question of value for money. You can always go private, but if you want treatment on the NHS then it has to be justified. In that sense, fertility treatment could be pushed aside in favour of treating the living. As it happens, there is fertility treatment on the NHS but it isn't unlimited. When I posted the above, I was thinking that if you refuse hybrid embryos on the NHS then the argument would likely apply to all fertility treatments. I don't have an issue with fertility treatment being free, just that I can see logic in the argument against it. Automatically Appended Next Post: d-usa wrote: Howard A Treesong wrote:Mitochondrial DNA has no effect on you as a person, it isn't part of the DNA in the nucleus that determines your phenotype but part of the DNA in the cell that runs operations like respiration. Mitochondrial DNA is only passed down the female line (because the cell of a fertilised embryo comes from the female) meaning that the DNA of the third person is lost if they have boys.
I think just a slight mistake there.
If they have boys, the donors Mitochondrial DNA is still present in that child. He still has mitochondria after all. Now if that boy has a child, then the donor mitochondrial DNA leaves the gene pool for that family and the child will have the mitochondrial DNA of whoevers egg he fertilized.
If they have a daughter then her children will have the mitochondrial DNA of the donor and it will continue to be passed down to any female children.
Not that this has any real bearing on the story though.
You are correct, I said that the boys wouldn't have the third-party mitochondrial DNA when in fact they would but couldn't pass it on. But I was drunk when I wrote that so I did ok IMO.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/29 14:10:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/29 14:57:03
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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Howard A Treesong wrote:I think we might be talking at crossed purposes, I don't disagree with anything you said.
One point though, we're coming at this from different cultures. In the US all healthcare is private so I suppose people can pay for what they want. In the UK we have nationalised healthcare and when you use that, there is the question of value for money. You can always go private, but if you want treatment on the NHS then it has to be justified. In that sense, fertility treatment could be pushed aside in favour of treating the living. As it happens, there is fertility treatment on the NHS but it isn't unlimited. When I posted the above, I was thinking that if you refuse hybrid embryos on the NHS then the argument would likely apply to all fertility treatments. I don't have an issue with fertility treatment being free, just that I can see logic in the argument against it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: Howard A Treesong wrote:Mitochondrial DNA has no effect on you as a person, it isn't part of the DNA in the nucleus that determines your phenotype but part of the DNA in the cell that runs operations like respiration. Mitochondrial DNA is only passed down the female line (because the cell of a fertilised embryo comes from the female) meaning that the DNA of the third person is lost if they have boys.
I think just a slight mistake there.
If they have boys, the donors Mitochondrial DNA is still present in that child. He still has mitochondria after all. Now if that boy has a child, then the donor mitochondrial DNA leaves the gene pool for that family and the child will have the mitochondrial DNA of whoevers egg he fertilized.
If they have a daughter then her children will have the mitochondrial DNA of the donor and it will continue to be passed down to any female children.
Not that this has any real bearing on the story though.
You are correct, I said that the boys wouldn't have the third-party mitochondrial DNA when in fact they would but couldn't pass it on. But I was drunk when I wrote that so I did ok IMO.
I think pushing all fertility treatments aside for your NHS policy just because one or more methods were not allowed does not make any sense whatsoever. I am not against fertility treatments as a general principle at all.
There are so many reasons why a couple may not be able to conceive that a blanket policy against fertility treatments would be draconian and probably cause more harm than good by a wide margin because then it would just make people even more desperate and subject to fraud or dangerous medical treatments.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/30 15:25:12
Subject: UK government backs three-person IVF
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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JWhex wrote: Guess which choice poses zero relative risk to the infant?
None of them? The relative risk of using this treatment is almost certainly much smaller than it is with having a child naturally who will have a mitochondrial abnormality and that is the main thing. You could simply say that people can adopt yet in reality that is quite a poor alternative for people who want to thave their own children.
If I was in a situaion in which my children would benefit from this treatment I would be all over it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/30 15:25:58
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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