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I have an upcoming match this coming Friday against GTKA666's Footdar Eldar. It is a practice game for The Golden Throne 2013. For those not familiar, the Golden Throne this year is 2000-pts with double-FOC's and Forgeworld allowed. For the practice game, I've decided to bring an off-shoot of my Hive Fleet Pandora (Tyranids) - the Splinter Fleet Pandorzilla - and it is going to be a monster of a list! It is another one of my hammer lists (unlike my more balanced Hive Fleet Pandora) that will table you if you don't have the tools to deal with it or which could potentially fall flat on its face if you do.

Also, I've been on somewhat of a losing streak lately against the new space elves, having 3 losses and 1 draw against them. The new elder are really good. However, are tyranids their kryptonite? With the older eldar codex, they really screwed up tyranids by making us roll 3D6 for our psychic tests. Now, the shoe is on the other foot. Eldar is going to get a taste of their own medicine. Now they will be the ones rolling 3D6 on their psychic tests. Is that enough to beat them, or are the space elves a much more balanced (and conversely, much less reliant on psychic powers) than that? We will find out in a few days.


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2000 Splinter Fleet Pandorzilla (Jy2)



Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers, Hive Commander
Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers

Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers (Note - Double-FOC's)

Doom of Ma'lantai - Mycetic Spore

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Toxin Sacs
11x Termagants
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants

Mawloc
Trygon - Toxin Sacs
Trygon - Toxin Sacs


Here's a closer look at some of my big bugs who have been on my shelf for a while. I used them primarily at the beginning of 5th Ed. and in Apoc games, but eventually replaced them in my armies with biovores and the tyrannofex.



2000 Eldar (GTKA666)


My opponent for the game, Sean, is actually quite new to the game. He's only been playing for 3-4 months and the Golden Throne GT will be his first major tournament. So I would say that I have quite a large experience edge over my opponent. However, one of his regular playing mates does run tyranids so he does have experience playing against them. He has faced flyrants, tervigons and the Doom before so it isn't as if this is an entirely new army for him. He has not, however, played against trygons and the mawloc before.


As for his army, it isn't quite finished yet. It is a WIP and he still has a lot of work to do. My opponent is using a unit of harlequins as a proxy for one of his warp spider units, but everything else in his army is WYSIWYG.


HQ:

Autarch- Death Spinner, ChainSword, and Spider Pack

Farseer

Troops:

10 DA- Exarch, Power Sowrd+Shimmer Shield- WS, TL SL, chin cannon, holofields

10 Guardians, WS, TL-SL, Chin Cannon, Holofields

10 Guardians

10 Guardians

Fast Attack:

Crimson Hunter-Exarch

8 Warp Spiders

7 Warp Spiders

Heavy:

3 WW, 2SL each

Big Daddy WK- Suncannon w/ Sl

Fortification:

ADL- Quad Gun


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PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:

I've learned to respect the new eldar. They pack some crazy firepower, especially at mid-range, and Sean's list is no exception. Once I get in close, his list has got the potential to wipe out 2-3 normal MC's a turn. I need to tread very lightly against his army. If I am not careful, I may end up getting tabled! Of course, if my opponent is not careful as well, I can end up tabling him as well. I'm going to turn up the pressure BIG time. How he deals with the pressure will tell me what type of player he is.

In this battle, you are going to see my strategy of Positional Dominance once again. While he's got good firepower, unlike other eldar lists that I've been playing against recently, his list is a little more limited mobility-wise (at least for his scoring units). I think I can control his movement to a degree. The 2 wave serpents will help, however, he will have to sacrifice some firepower if he wants to go fast with them (as in, moving flat-out). The eldar lists that I've been playing against recently all usually involve jetbikes, and there is really no way to box them in. With his list, I think I can trap his troops as long as I can anticipate where his serpents are going to move flat-out to.

Warp spiders and war walkers will definitely be priority targets. Their firepower is insane and I've got to deal with them quickly. His wave serpents have also got some awesome firepower. However, they will be slightly harder to deal with. I'm probably going to have to ignore them until I can close onto them with assault. I'm not really too concerned about the crimson hunter and I'm just going to have to ignore Big Daddy until he gets within assault range. The Wraithknight is going to be the X-factor for eldar in this game. Trygons should be able to take care of him, assuming they survive long enough. I'll save the delicious snacks - the guardians - for last. With their limited range, they are the least threatening though if they team up against my MC's, they can easily take out a MC.

As for my army, my opponent's got to watch out for my flyrants. They are going to do the majority of the heavy lifting. They are also going to absorb a lot of firepower. If he can ground them early, then he will kill them. If not, I am going to wreak havoc on his army. Finally, the Doom can potentially play a huge role in this game. He is my X-factor that could turn the tide of the battle if he is not dealt with.


Eldar:

Well I am well versed in the fire powa of the Flyrants and know that it is his only way of shooting, but little does he know that I don't run Eldar like a normal person. Who ever is first will dramatically dictate what dies and when in this game, unless one of us whiffs. This game can't have any errors in it in order to survive (for me mainly). Now I haven't gone against any trygons at all so this will be interesting to see, but I do know that once they get close I have to chose whether the spawn brooding Tervigons die and risk assault or take care of the big nasties in my face. Either way the Flyrants are TOP priority.

My opponent thinks I need movement . Warp Spiders are all the movement I need! In objective based games these guys shine with my strategies and will split up Tyranids once they are in the back field and control the flow of the flood. I am glad that Jim realizes that the WK may not have fire power, but he will have to be wary of him in combat since I have no need to smash and he might have to and see if I fail my invuls. Although I am very tempted to see how the WK does against the Mawloc. The WK will also look for any grounded Flyrant and make it disappear into thin air.

I am not too threatened by the Doom, but I am wary of it because he will most likely be targeting my fleshies on the objectives. The Quad gun will be crucial in this and the Crimson Hunter will have to take care of it since it doubles it out or the WK will have to punt it back to the filthy land it came from.


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Deployment:




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Eldar 1




Tyranids 1




Eldar 2




Tyranids 2




Eldar 3




Tyranids 3




Eldar 4




Tyranids 4




Eldar 5




Tyranids 5




Eldar 6




Tyranids 6




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POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Post-games to come tomorrow.

Going to give him another shot again, just like I gave Fateweaver another shot in my daemons list.

Come to think of it, I'm giving the trygons another shot again as well.

 Roci wrote:
You going to let heavies "feed" or you going to use one of the flyrants for Backfield synapse? Keep them around the front and sides for the pew pew.. DS in from behind....sounds like a lot of fun.

Little mawloc terror from the deep, little shooty from the trygons.. then rage for all and nom nom time.

I am interested to see the eldar list.

Yeah, they're better when they're feeding. Flyrants will be playing aggressively. I've got 2 tervigons for my backfield.

Rikoche wrote:
I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!

Massed shuriken could hurt, but honestly, I don't mind if he is shooting at my trygons or the mawloc. Flyrants are going to do all the heavy lifting anyways. The 'gons are just to soak up some firepower.

 DexKivuli wrote:

Rikoche wrote:
I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!

Bladestorm could be scary to the big bugs... particularly if combined with Doom.

However, I'd be afraid of wave serpents with D-Scythe wraithguard. The 'Nid list's main method of killing vehicles is monstrous creatures (as far as I can see), and the monstrous creatures fear instant death. Even without psychic powers, those units have good odds to kill the monsters.

Serpents will be a nuisance. However, I don't think I will see very many in a footdar list...unless, of course, he decides not to bring a foot-list. Wraithguard will get shot down. I'm not foolish enough to charge them with anything but gants.

 Reecius wrote:
I will be super interested to see this one play out. I used to have a lot of trouble with Nids with my Footdar in 5th. Both armies excel at close range, but now Nids have the Pyschic advantage where previously Eldar did. Also, Footdar are less assault now (generally no Harlies or Avatar) and more shooty (count on Guide and prescience) so the dynamic has shifted quite a bit.

Right now, I'd say tyranids have a slight advantage, though it really depends on the type of eldar build. Eldar's got enough firepower to shoot the bugs off the board. Whoever goes first will be crucial.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I choked on my tea when I saw the third Flyrant, I can see an exciting match on the way!

Good thing then I'm not bringing 4 flyrants. You'd probably drown on your tea.

 Reecius wrote:
That is a hyper aggressive list, Jim!

Yeah, it's a rather unbalanced, pure hammer list. I'll either table you because you don't have the tools to deal with my units, or I'll probably get tabled if you do.

BTW, I'd probably never take such a list to a tournament. In a tournament, it's all about balance.

 Ministry wrote:

 DexKivuli wrote:

Rikoche wrote:
I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!

Bladestorm could be scary to the big bugs... particularly if combined with Doom.

However, I'd be afraid of wave serpents with D-Scythe wraithguard. The 'Nid list's main method of killing vehicles is monstrous creatures (as far as I can see), and the monstrous creatures fear instant death. Even without psychic powers, those units have good odds to kill the monsters.

The D-Sycthe strength is only S4 so it depends on what its templating really. T5+ Nids make those wounds a lot rarer!

Right, though with 5 wraiths, the chances of him insta-killing a big bug (without Iron Arm) is pretty high. It's even worse with Overwatch.

Thanks for posting your list Sean. I will update the opening post. Looking forward to beating, I mean playing your space elves tomorrow. Nom nom nom.....

PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:

I've learned to respect the new eldar. They pack some crazy firepower, especially at mid-range, and Sean's list is no exception. Once I get in close, his list has got the potential to wipe out 2-3 normal MC's a turn. I need to tread very lightly against his army. If I am not careful, I may end up getting tabled! Of course, if my opponent is not careful as well, I can end up tabling him as well. I'm going to turn up the pressure BIG time. How he deals with the pressure will tell me what type of player he is.

In this battle, you are going to see my strategy of Positional Dominance once again. While he's got good firepower, unlike other eldar lists that I've been playing against recently, his list is a little more limited mobility-wise (at least for his scoring units). I think I can control his movement to a degree. The 2 wave serpents will help, however, he will have to sacrifice some firepower if he wants to go fast with them (as in, moving flat-out). The eldar lists that I've been playing against recently all usually involve jetbikes, and there is really no way to box them in. With his list, I think I can trap his troops as long as I can anticipate where his serpents are going to move flat-out to.

Warp spiders and war walkers will definitely be priority targets. Their firepower is insane and I've got to deal with them quickly. His wave serpents have also got some awesome firepower. However, they will be slightly harder to deal with. I'm probably going to have to ignore them until I can close onto them with assault. I'm not really too concerned about the crimson hunter and I'm just going to have to ignore Big Daddy until he gets within assault range. The Wraithknight is going to be the X-factor for eldar in this game. Trygons should be able to take care of him, assuming they survive long enough. I'll save the delicious snacks - the guardians - for last. With their limited range, they are the least threatening though if they team up against my MC's, they can easily take out a MC.

As for my army, my opponent's got to watch out for my flyrants. They are going to do the majority of the heavy lifting. They are also going to absorb a lot of firepower. If he can ground them early, then he will kill them. If not, I am going to wreak havoc on his army. Finally, the Doom can potentially play a huge role in this game. He is my X-factor that could turn the tide of the battle if he is not dealt with.


------------------------------------------------------------------




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:
Indeed, I hope the testing works out for you but adding some support weapons to Guardians is like adding special weapons to IG Veterans =). Good luck in your games and you should do fine, I heard nids and Jy2 suck . J/k!

No, really, I do, at least against eldar. I have a losing record against them.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
That Eldar list... is really weak.

Not really. It's not perfect, but it's got some scary firepower. It's good enough to give most armies a run for their money.

 CKO wrote:
I think the nids win this one unless a lot of 6s are rolled to deny saves with the monofilament and blade storm rule..

With Doom and Guide/Prescience, that is actually much easier to do than you think. Of course, he's going to be casting them in the presence of Shadows....

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
That Eldar list... is really weak.

How do you figure?

Godless! Good to see you back here on the forums.

Oh, they may make an appearance if time allows....

I've got an interesting list I've been meaning to try. I call it my Chaos Herald-hammer list.

Don't want people to confuse them with my grey knights. I think that will give them a bad rap....


You are, of course, free to use that name....

Just finished our game and man, it was an unbelievable game. We both got very good psychic powers. GTKA got Fortune, Doom and Guide for his powers. I got 2 Iron Arms on my flyrants (but not on my Warlord) and Puppet Master for the Doom. My flyrant also got FNP on an objective for its Warlord trait.

And to top it off, we were playing the Scouring where I had no Fast Attacks and my opponent had 3. We checked his crimson hunter and the wings dip low enough to actually claim an objective!

Report to come out after I finish up on my 1750 RTT Tournament report.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
A rather uncompetitive list from the space elves. It lacks focus, and some sub-omptimal units were taken. To my eye it looks more like a try-out for all these new units, a test to see which make the cut for a more competitive list.

I think the nids will take it without too much difficulty.

I disagree. While it isn't fully optimized, it's got focus alright and its focus is awesome mid-range shooting. Rather, it's shoot and scoot a la Tau. Just when you think you've got them, they ebb away like the sea, all the while shooting the heck out of you. From my experiences with eldar so far, they are a deceptively good army. On paper, they may not look all that great, but playing against them is a whole different experience.

GTKA666 wrote:
Eldar Pre Game Analysis:

Well I am well versed in the fire powa of the Flyrants and know that it is his only way of shooting, but little does he know that I don't run Eldar like a normal person. Who ever is first will dramatically dictate what dies and when in this game, unless one of us whiffs. This game can't have any errors in it in order to survive (for me mainly). Now I haven't gone against any trygons at all so this will be interesting to see, but I do know that once they get close I have to chose whether the spawn brooding Tervigons die and risk assault or take care of the big nasties in my face. Either way the Flyrants are TOP priority.

My opponent thinks I need movement . Warp Spiders are all the movement I need! In objective based games these guys shine with my strategies and will split up Tyranids once they are in the back field and control the flow of the flood. I am glad that Jim realizes that the WK may not have fire power, but he will have to be wary of him in combat since I have no need to smash and he might have to and see if I fail my invuls. Although I am very tempted to see how the WK does against the Mawloc. The WK will also look for any grounded Flyrant and make it disappear into thin air.

I am not too threatened by the Doom, but I am wary of it because he will most likely be targeting my fleshies on the objectives. The Quad gun will be crucial in this and the Crimson Hunter will have to take care of it since it doubles it out or the WK will have to punt it back to the filthy land it came from.

Thanks. I've added your pre-game to the main rep.

 Nivoglibina wrote:
Who has first turn, and a couple of grounding tests might decide the game.
I'd love to be proven wrong but I think the Tyranids will take this.
GL both!

Eldar will be going first. BTW, it will be Night-fight on T1.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.

I certainly forgot. I don't know if my opponent remembered. But don't you lose the wraithcannons if you take the suncannon?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All flyers that are fast attack should score for the Scouring. I doubt GW intended it otherwise.

They are scoring, yes. However, the problem is that you only count the hull and most of the hulls are a lot more than 3" off the ground where the objectives are. Only the helturkey and the crimson hunter (maybe the stormtalons as well?) are low enough to claim objectives.

Of course, you could always put the objectives on top of a hill or on the upper levels of a ruin.

@Thread

It appears to be my opponent's wish NOT to dissect his list at this time so please respect his wishes. He heard your comments and responded in kind. Please do not push it further for the time being. At the very least, wait until after the battle report where you get a chance to see them in action before commenting on his list again. If he was truly looking for help with his list, there is an appropriate section where he could ask for it. Thanks.


I will finish my other batrep today and hopefully get started on this one. It was a very exciting game and I am just as eager to tell it as I am sure you are to reading it.

 ansacs wrote:
Should be an interesting game. Look forward to seeing the bat rep.

@Jy2 why no 4th flyrant? Run out of flyrant models? It actually would be interesting to see what would happen with a list like that. Either way looks like an interesting army. BTW if you ran four then you could call them the barbershop quartet.

Like I said in the intro, this game will be and has been played this past Friday.

There are a number of reasons why I didn't take 4 flyrants.

1. I wanted to experiment with the trygons/mawlocs once again.

2. Trygons/mawlocs make for great cannon fodder and fits my strategy of Positional Dominance really well. They will force you to direct your resources against them. You may kill them, but what most people don't realize is that their goal to to control/limit your Movement. They keep you boxed in in your own deployment zone and by the time you kill them, hopefully you will be out of position relative to the objectives.

3. While this is a practice game for a Tournament, I really don't know what type of player is my opponent. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is truly ultra-competitive and we have never even met or played each other until this game. Until I get to know my opponent a little more, sometimes, it's better not to bring a bazooka to a knife fight. Some people won't really appreciate it. 3 flyrants is already really tough to deal with.

 Red Corsair wrote:

All good reasons and I agree though you must admit a flyrant barber shop quartet does sound hilarious . Super pumped that you are giving the mawloc another go, I really think he gets over looked too often. Lets see how he does tough ha ha.

I decided to give the Mawloc another try thanks to this thread by Jifel:


Search for the anti-Tau: Mawlocs?

Naw wrote:
It is easy to overlook something when its usefulness can be decided by bad dice rolling. In our gaming group an Eldar player stopped using wraithguard after just two games, this under 5th edition rules. He played them correctly, but did not have luck.

I keep refreshing these two threads by jy2, but still no batreps.

Yeah, bud luck/experience with a unit is the quickest way to shelve it. That's what I did with Fateweaver early on with 6th Ed. Daemons. However, recently I started using him again and now I don't think my balanced, competitive daemons will be without him any more.

The report is coming soon. I already started on it.

GTKA666 wrote:
Thanks Jim. Though I should have asked you to bring a bazooka to the knife fight because that is what I was looking for! You still brought a RPG launcher though and can't wait to go up against your ATC tourney list sometime soon.

Still wouldn't have brought 4 flyrants mainly because I wanted my 3 alien worms. But next time, it may be a whole different ballgame.

As of now, I really don't know how my ATC list will do. I've only played 1 game with it so far. I need a lot more practice with it.

toocool61 wrote:
I'd love to play to! I am also going to the Golden Throne and would love to test my list against your Eldar.

Aren't you currently in SoCal? Well, if you ever do come up to NorCal, just give me or GTKA a PM and maybe we can get a game on.

GTKA666 wrote:
o and jim I had the "seer of the shifting vector trait". the DS within 6" of warlord does not scatter.

Oh yeah....that's right....the warp spiders. Thanks.

Battle report updated.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Oh snap. Pop goes the Flyrant.

And they had such high toughness to.

Eldar are more broken than coffee mugs at a preschool.

That's too bad....because you need lots of coffee to stay awake in preschool.

GTKA666 wrote:
lol this battle will surprise most people and will put Eldar in a different light.

BTW, one of reasons why I think 10 naked guardians without any heavy weapon platforms is ok is this.

With a heavy weapon, you are encouraged to stay away to just fire it. That means may just 1 bright lance shot or up to 4 S6 shots.

Guardians are much more deadly when they're close up firing 20 rending shots while supported by Guide/Prescience and Doom.

Stay back and your chances of grounding MC's is much, much lower as you are less likely to hit. Up close, you have a much better chance to ground them because there are more units to shoot with higher chances to hit.

BTW, you played T2 brilliantly with all your units working together in unison in order to take out my flyrants.

Amerikon wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

BTW, one of reasons why I think 10 naked guardians without any heavy weapon platforms is ok is this.

With a heavy weapon, you are encouraged to stay away to just fire it. That means may just 1 bright lance shot or up to 4 S6 shots.

Guardians are much more deadly when they're close up firing 20 rending shots while supported by Guide/Prescience and Doom.

Stay back and your chances of grounding MC's is much, much lower as you are less likely to hit. Up close, you have a much better chance to ground them because there are more units to shoot with higher chances to hit.

Aren't Grav Platforms relentless? Unless the issue is being afraid to commit a more expensive unit (I don't know what the platforms cost) it seems like adding at least a Shuriken Cannon would a be a no-brainer. Play just as aggressively with your Guardians, but now if you put them up against a high-toughness target you've got more than just the hope for a few 6s in your arsenal.

All I am saying is that not having a weapons platform in a unit of guardians is ok. But that doesn't mean it is better than a unit with a gun platform. Now it is ok if you play your guardian squad up close with the rest of the army but the problem I am seeing is that many players who run the gun platforms tend to deploy them slightly further away from the rest of the more mobile army and just sit there and shoot. Honestly, that is a waste of all the bladestorming shots there as the unit can easily be avoided should the opponent choose to. So basically, each turn you are just firing 1 brightlance shot (or whatever). But deploy them with the rest of the force and now you can fire both your weapons platform as well as shurikens when the enemy gets close.

Naked guardians tend to be be 1) in wave serpents or 2) close to the main army to help support it. That is just how a lot of players play. You can also reserve them, but guardian jetbikes would do that better.

DarthDiggler wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
lol this battle will surprise most people and will put Eldar in a different light.

Nope. Games over. I mean dice are dice and the Doom can come down and wreck your whole Army, but that doesn't mean much. At this point the Eldar win 4/5 games and that's pretty good for a dice game. You can roll some dice, shoot a Trygon with 80 rending shots and miss with everything to lose the game. Still doesn't mean Eldar don't win this matchup 4/5 times from this point forward.

I think you are being kind. Losing 800-pts of your best units who also happen to be your best shooters, only means of anti-flyer and most mobile units while only being able to take out 70-pts of the opponent's offense....in most cases, your chances of a victory is 1 in 10.

djn wrote:
Ouch, game over then by turn 2? It'll be interesting to see if you can salvage anything from this, jy2.

The flyrants were exposed to a hell of a lot of firepower including the flyer and quad which are pretty much guaranteed to ground two tyrants. However with those iron arms rolls plus FNP I wouldn't have thought on average he had enough shots to take that 12 wounds off.

I notice there doesn't seem to be any Los blocking for the flyrants, I'd have preferred waiting till turn 2 reserves were in the Eldar deployment zone before exposing the flyrants but I guess that wasn't possible. All with the benefit of hindsight and armchair generalship of course.

It's not over yet. Like I said, this was a very good game.

My rolling was pretty bad on Turn 2. I would fail all my Grounding tests (where is Fateweaver when you need him!?!) and I don't think I passed a single FNP save. Moreover, I had no cover against the majority of his rending shooting as well as the Wraithknights and crimson hunter's AP2 shots. His list actually has quite a lot of short-to-mid-range firepower and T8/9 means nothing to rending shuriken weaponry.

There was a LOS-blocking terrain. I just chose not to use it, opting for an aggressive alpha-strike instead and thinking that I should be able to survive his shooting with maybe just 1 or at most 2 dead flyrants. If I had made even 1 grounding test, I probably would have had at least 1 flyrant survive.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Wow. Poor ol' Flyrants, thats almost half the points of this army out the window. It will be interesting to see the recovery.

As long as the Doom is able to draw a lot of firepower from his army, thus giving my Heavies some breathing room, I think I still have a slim chance.

 jifel wrote:
Final prediction is a narrow Eldar victory. Mawloc, Tyrgons and DOOM all do enough damage to hold back Eldar, but Tervigons and other elements can't make it far up enough to contest/claim the Eldars superior objectives.

The Eldar list ends up being more formidable than it looked, in line with most of the lists used by Reecius. Eldar is a very tricky, synergistic army to be sure! There still isn't an emerging single "meta build" better than any other.

Wait til Wave Serpent-spam comes out. I guarantee you that is a top-tier tournament-winning eldar army build.

The question is, how will it look like? I don't believe it is a 9-AV12 build like pure CronAir. Rather, think of it more like my wraithwing crons - a hybrid build with 4-5 wave serpents and some other good units.

I will probably test such a build with SabrX's mechdar when he returns to gaming.

Turn 2 completed.


Turn 3 coming a little later tonight.

 BladeWalker wrote:
Both of these lists look great on the battlefield, the Eldar list is diverse and really fills the board with units/threats. Great game so far! 40k at 2K+ is really a different game and loads of fun.

Thanks. Yeah, there definitely is a lot more toys you can play around with at 2K. Personally, 2K is my favorite points level to play at, though it does take around 3+ hours of casual play.

Eldercaveman wrote:
And the Mawloc proves it worth. I'm happy someone has shown this to the Internet as it is a unit I have always stood by. But I tend to run my list as triple maw locks, 2 x 7 ymgarls, doom in a pod. Then 2 x tervis, with the needed gants. And a flyrant.

I think when playing againt "maw-gins" (i.e. mawloc virgins - people who have never gone up againt a mawloc before), you can pull off such shenanigans. But rarely will you be able to pull off the same maneuver against the same opponent again. They'll usually learn the 2nd time, especially after losing a 400-pt unit just like that.

 jifel wrote:
Excellent showing by the Mawloc! I'm currently bouncing back between him + gants and a third Flyrant for 2250... its very tricky! I'm very glad that I opened up that thread on the Mawloc, I'm seeing real utility in this guy!

Quick question, did you DS that Trygon there to block his Serpents "path of escape" before the Mawloc came in? If so, that is just pure evil!

Yes, I did. In order for the mawloc "trick" to work, you need to block off all exits. That was exactly what I tried to do. Almost gave him an "out" with the spore pod scattering. Fortunately, I was able to disembark the Doom and still be able to block an "exit".

In addition, the trygon was in range to shoot at the war walkers. He just made his cover saves/invulns.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Well, the mawloc sure paid for himself.

Yeah, he can do that to an unsuspecting opponent....even after I told my opponent about the "trick" before we even started playing.

Turn 3 updated.


Sorry, will finish the report tomorrow. Time to go to sleep.

Report updated to Turn 5.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Wake up jy2, sleep when your dead. Looking forward to seeing how this one ends. I find your battle reports by far the easiest to follow of all the ones I read online, so thanks and keep it up!

Quick question; Where in the rules does it state that FMCs cant start the game flying? There was some debate over this in my group and we couldnt find a definate answer.

LOL.

Wished I could play more games as well when I'm dead.

Don't have my book with me, but flying for MC's is done on their Movement phase. If you aren't going first, then you haven't had the chance to fly yet as you have not had your Movement phase yet.

 jifel wrote:
Page 49, "Deployment:" A FMC that is deployed starts in in Glide mode.


And, I'm very happy to see the turnaround! I'm still thinking adraw, although I'd have to go back and check how many points each objective was worth. I hold to my prediction though, Eldar can't muster the forces to kick Nids off the objective.

Currently, my opponent only has the 1-pt objective.

I've got (or will get when I move) a 4-pt, 3-pt and 2-pt objective. I've also killed 2 scoring FA units. If the game ends on 5, it will be a crushing victory for my bugs. That's quite a turnaround.

However, I need for the game to end before he shoots down my tervigons and I need to start testing for Instinctive Behaviour!

Battle report completed.


Post-games to come tomorrow.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I've seen the same mawloc trick done in 5th but using lictors or Ygnarls to pin gun line units in their corner before popping up. Also glad to see you burrowed turn 1 like any smart player though you may want to add that to your turn one so others know the same trick. Never reserve the mawloc. If he lives the mawloc will be crucial by the end of this game due to burrowing and hit and run, he is a great end game contester.

Don't sell that trick short btw, with three flying MC's, a spod/doom and two trygons you have great odds at trapping even hardened players. As I've said I've seen it done even to suspecting players using lictors though I'll agree it is hit or miss but when it goes off, like in this game, it is awesome.

Looking at the eldar list again I think he would benefit more with a Bastion. It's cheaper, gives his quad gun better visibility, protects a unit inside while adding heavy bolter support and on top of all that allows his WW to battle focus behind it each turn so he can use his seers powers elsewhere.

Funny game so far, a lot of unlikely things have happened which I find make the most fun game.

That is true. Sometimes, you can make it happen even when your opponent knows about it. You just need the reserves to come in almost all at the same time. A note about ymgarls though. That would only work if the enemy unit is in or near area terrain where the ymgarls come out from because if the ymgarl has to move to block off the enemy unit, then that is already pass the beginning of the movement phase.

Also, people still run lictors? Lol. Must be a really casual game.

Yeah, I like the Bastion for eldar. Gives those walkers and others a hiding place.

This game was nerve-wracking....to be down so much for me initially and then to find yourself with not enough scoring units or offense to get rid of tyranid scoring units for my opponent. It was a very back-and-forth game, which made it very exciting.

Amerikon wrote:
I agree, but I see this as less of an argument for naked guardians and more a call for people to wake up and stop letting the grav platform tail wag the dog.

That's right. Personally, I would give them a gun platform as well, but it isn't the end of the world if you don't. They can still function well if you use the unit properly.

GTKA666 wrote:
Well when the mawlock came in (for some reason it didn't occur to me that I had trapped my WS. Thats what I get for saying "ah that will never happen.") and he put the pie plate down he had this grin on his face and when he said "I put it here. Now your Serpent is destroyed." I literally tried to find every nook and cranny to try and save the damn thing....whats worse is that I was thinking of disembarking the unit out of the WS in case the flyrants had lived though the onslaught...O' how deep that wound cut. Mark my words though....this will not happen to me again!

I think T2 is the turn of proving a units' worth. Not to mention the turn that I am still kicking myself for XD.

As for the Bastion....I don't own one . I also use the Quad for the scare factor and less for actual fire power, well with the crack shot gone and whatnot. This game of course would have been perfect for it though.

You actually still had 2 openings, which I then plugged up with my reserves. It's really hard to foresee that without first-hand experience playing against a mawloc. And I rolled really well for my reserves despite losing Hive Commander. If even 1 less unit came in from reserves, I wouldh't have been able to pull it off.

Eldercaveman wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
Well when the mawlock came in and he put the pie plate down he had this grin on his face and when he said "I put it here. Now your Serpent is destroyed." I literally tried to find every nook and cranny to try and save the damn thing....whats worse is that I was thinking of disembarking the unit out of the WS in case the flyrants had lived though the onslaught...O' how deep that wound cut. Mark my words though....this will not happen to me again!

I think T2 is the turn of proving a units' worth. Not to mention the turn that I am still kicking myself for XD.

And so the Mawloc has done its job. The thing I have found with Nids, is more than any other army half the battle is won off the table. You need to be able to control the psychological warfare going on. And now any time you come up against a Mawloc, you will have this in your mind, and your opponent will already be controlling what you do, just by showing you a list.

The hive mind is watching.....

Yeah, nids are masters of psychological warfare. They've got so many disruption units that most people don't realize how much they make you think until they play against you, and then they are sweating. I believe this psychological factor is the true X-factor for the bugs. Sometimes, it is enough of an edge to give me the victory in many of my games as my opponents under-estimate my army and makes mistakes, especially when it comes to target prioritization.

Baktru wrote:
Holy Macquerel.

Three Flyrants gone in a single turn. I didn't expect to see that happening. As jy2 said, 1 or at worst 2 of them. But the whole bunch...

Good showing by the Mawloc though! Maybe I should add one of those to my to-build list.

I guess the next round of Eldar shooting will be crucial in how many more Tyranids are blasted off the table..

The mawloc is a support unit. Go with the core units first, which are the flyrants and tervigons. The mawlocs/trygons are situational units and can be good in some games against certain opponents, but the flyrant/tervigons are good against all the opponents almost all of the time. They are the foundation for a balanced, TAC (Take-All-Comer's) tyranids list.

 Valek wrote:
ouch, that was a scary turn of shooting for the Eldar, it just proves how deceptively competitive that codex is... and i am sure that list can be optimized a lot.

On the other hand really curious how the Eldar will take out the superheroes team ... (trygon, mawloc, doom) they have the power to cripple the backfield, which they already did half by killing a waveserpent and molesting a unit of warspiders.

However i predict the power of shuriken catapults will be seen now... (one of the reasons my nids will change owner...)

He did roll well with hist shooting initially and you know what the scary part was? He didn't even really use the psychic buffs of his farseer! If his farseer had survived, no doubt I would have lost this game. But the way he was shooting, he didn't really need his farseer. Lol.

My "superheroes team" just wasn't "super" enough. Lol.

 Redemption wrote:
Ouch, painful to see all 3 flyrants go down in a single turn. The Mawloc trick looks like fun, but seems very situational to me with so many things that could go wrong, the most probably one being either the Mawloc scattering off target, or one of the other models that are required to box in does so. Or am I missing something.

Interested in seeing the rest of the fight.

Bronzino88 wrote:
Why did the doom get to disembark 6"? the rule for spore pods is only a 2" disembark, unless I missed it in a FAQ?

Without that 6" disembark looks like the WS would have had plenty of room to move out of the mawlocs way.

It was errata'd in the January FAQ update to be 6":
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940052a_Tyranids_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

The damage output of the mawloc isn't the most important thing. I really wasn't expecting him to do a lot of damage. Rather, I was expecting him to take some hits and then die. However, what I really like about him is that he is another disruption unit that can psychologically affect the way your opponent plays. And there is the potential gem of a strategy of wiping out a unit if the opponent isn't careful.

One of these days, I would love to burrow and come out from under a surrounded land raider filled with terminators (or some expensive unit) and an uber-character. That is my dream with the mawloc.

Bronzino88 wrote:
The crimson hunter being shot down illegally actually had a huge impact on the game.

Things that would have most likely happened if the crimson hunter lived:

Last tervigon would have died, losing the 4pt objective
said tervigon explodes killing the lone gaunt and losing jy2 the 3 pt objective and line breaker
the explosion would also kill most if not the entire unit of gaunts fighting the wraith knight, freeing him from combat or letting him finish the squad easily.
Jy2 would not get the extra point for killing a fast attack.

So if all those things were to happen (and the chances are very high they would have if the crimson hunter wasn't shot down) that would make the score 5-4 in the Nids favor still.

That would be a best-case scenario for my opponent had the crimson hunter not been shot down. But realistically, it wouldn't be that easy.

- Both units of gants were more than 6" away from my tervigon (but were still within 12" synapse range). Hence, no explosion for them. The unit in combat with his wraith knight moved out of 6" when they piled into the wraith knight at the end of combat.

- It isn't easy to kill a tervigon at full health and with FNP. He only had the crimson hunter and 2 war walkers that could shoot at it. Hunter would do: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds after FNP. Walkers would do: 11 hits, 6 wounds, 1.3 unsaved wounds after saves and FNP. He'd have to roll really well and I really bad for that to happen.

- Had I remembered about the rules mistaken, my tactics would have been much different. I would have moved the tervigon (and run him) towards the flyer instead while making sure to still stay in claiming range of the 4-pt objective. This way, the hunter would have to fly over my tervigon as it would need to move at least 18". Also, if at all possible, I would try to move the tervigon into area terrain as well. His base is big enough that I might have been able to have him touching area terrain as well as be within claiming range of the objective.

- The smart thing for my opponent to do would be to fly his hunter to claim the 3-pt objective, thus forgoing its shooting, and hope for the game continue. He would have finished with the 2+3-pt objectives + 2 bonus VP's. I would have finished with the 2+4-pt objectives + 2 FA + 2 bonus VP's.

GTKA666 wrote:
jy2 said that the explosion happens in a 6" radius. the guy was more than 6"away...i think

Correct. I was careful to try to keep my gants more than 6" from my tervigon....except for the gants in combat with the wraith knight. Them, I wanted to stay within range of my tervigon so that they can benefit from his Poisoned buff. However, at the end of combat, they had to pile in, thus taking them out of 6" from my tervigon. Then next turn, I had to move my tervigon towards the gants in combat so that they had the Poison buff again.

 Redemption wrote:
Oh I know, I play 'Nids myself, it is my first army.

But for me they usually don't do much unless I get lucky. The 2-3 S6 AP2 Large Blasts he can do over the length of a game are usually mitigated or negated by cover saves, scatters or just placing any juicy targets inside a transport or in the upper levels of a ruin. They're a fun concept though, so I sometimes run 'em in friendly games for gaks and giggles.

Yeah, I love running them in my Apoc games where there are so many units and the board is cluttered. They tend to have a much bigger impact in those games. I'm still looking to kill a land raider full of expensive guys inside with my mawlocs.

 jifel wrote:
Note to self: Monstrous creatures, Deep Struck next to Eldar, will die horrible and painful deaths. Statistically, a Shurikan catapult within 12" will do the same number of wounds as a DE Splinter Rifle... Ouch o.O

I think one of your "standard" Nid lists would have fared much better here. This game is just screaming for Biovores! But this has also almost completely shaken me off Trygons. I never really liked them, but in todays Meta Nid reserves need to all arrive at once, and they need to do things THAT TURN. The threat of "I'm big and scary!" just gets you killed without doing enough damage.

That Nid list was designed as an "MC overload" but I think it played right into the hands of the Eldar list. Ymgarls, Biovores, the Doom in a Pod, Zoeys in a Pod, all of these could do a lot of damage if together. Of course, losing those Flyrants in one turn is horrendously bad luck and pretty much triggered your doom, but I think you (and I admit I did too) underestimated the Eldar v. Nids matchup. It looks like we may want to stay in that ~24" gap with our monstrous creatures until we've killed enough infantry to matter.

To me, trygons are bullet magnets to look scary and distract the opponent. Honestly, I really don't expect them to do much but die. However, if they do make it into combat somehow, that is usually a bonus in my book. But yeah, nidzilla builds can be good, but in a tournament, I'll prefer to take a more balanced tyranid army.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
While the eldar have some good tricks in their codex, from what i've seen in the batrep Jy2's biggest enemy in this battle is his own dice. Yes, shuriken weapons ignore armor saves on a 6, D-weapons cause instant death on a 6, mono-filament weapons are ap1 on a 6, etc etc, but it looks to me like between failing so many normal dice rolls like armor saves and grounding checks, Jy2 would be in dire straits with any army.

Interested to see how it plays out, but man those first 3 turns were absolutely brutal.

The game would have definitely been a much different one if my dice wasn't so bad in the beginning. If even 1 flyrant had survived, I would have used him next turn to finish off my opponent's mobility. Mawloc takes out his Warlord's serpent. Flyrant would have moved to get rear shots on the other serpent where he does not have the protection of his energy field.

But it is what it is. The fact that Sean was able to take out 7 out of 8 MC's is a testament to the powerful shooting of the eldar.

rigeld2 wrote:
And this is exactly what I've seen happen running Nidzilla against Tau and Eldar...

I can hold my own against anything else (so far) but I can't even make it halfway across the board against a good Tau list.

I don't DS my fexes though (and I use fexes instead of trygons because I dislike the snake look). Maybe I should (but that means more pods...)

Tau....yeesh. Another deadly army for tyranids to go up against. To survive against their shooting, tyranids would have to get incredibly lucky with their psychic powers and get a lot of Iron Arms. You're also going to have to consider those drop units. That is their best chance against Tau.

If there's any army that gives my bugs pause, it would be Tau. I would have to think about whether they taste better with BBQ sauce or just ketchup.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Baktru wrote:
Three Flyrants gone in a single turn. I didn't expect to see that happening. As jy2 said, 1 or at worst 2 of them. But the whole bunch...

I'm afraid to say this doesn't surprise me one bit. At our local shop my brother's Eldar have absolutely annihilated all flying tyrants they have come across in one round (generally their first turn of shooting - as happened here), to the point that killing them is more of a sport than an actual tactical priority to him...

Still nice to see the Mawloc getting that one-in-a-million hit with Terror From the Deep!

That's quite a feat. Honestly, I think that killing 3 flyrants in just 1 turn for a 2K army - and considering those flyrants were buffed by 2 Iron Arms and 2 FNP's - would actually require a lot of luck. Keep in mind that in normal games, he only has to deal with 2 flyrants unless you guys normally run double-FOC games.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

HQ: Farseer or Spirit Seer - stock (depending on what disciplines he wants or if he wants a unit of D-scythe wraithguard, generally brings a Farseer in the second slot points permitting)

ELITES
(generally neglected, occasionally brings Fire Dragons + Serpent in place of a DAVU serpent)

TROOP: 5x Dire Avengers + Serpent - Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
TROOP: 5x Dire Avengers + Serpent - Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
TROOP: 5x Dire Avengers + Serpent - Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
TROOP: 5x Dire Avengers + Serpent - Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields

FAST: Crimson Hunter - stock

HEAVY: Fire Prism - stock, maybe holofields if points allow
HEAVY: Fire Prism - same as above
HEAVY: Wraithknight - stock

The firepower output is quite alarming to put it mildly. The last game he had was called turn 3 as the enemy didn't have anything really left to fight back with.

It's good, but there are actually some out there that is even nastier.

As a matter of fact, you're going to see my nasty mechdar list in a battle report coming soon.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Page 49, "Deployment:" A FMC that is deployed starts in in Glide mode.


And, I'm very happy to see the turnaround! I'm still thinking adraw, although I'd have to go back and check how many points each objective was worth. I hold to my prediction though, Eldar can't muster the forces to kick Nids off the objective.

How did I miss that!? Its right there in the FMC rules.

Thanks for all the responses.

I am no longer surprised by jy2's amazing come backs. I am begining to think he throws the early turns for dramatic effect.

Lol. Nah, I'm not thaaaat good.

But what I do have is a much larger experience edge over my opponent. I know what my army can still do even after I've lost all my teeth. Those tervigons are just amazing in an objectives game. You really can't count them out until you literally take them out.

djn wrote:
Great turn around jy2. That's what I love about nids, shove a load of hard hitting scary stuff in people's faces to deal with and all the while the tervigons are spawning gants and taking the midfield. Well done GTKA666 for bringing the hive fleet to the brink! Looking forward to the last instalment. Nid victory against the odds?

I do think that this game highlights the usefulness of the skyshield for nids. Placed dead centre when the flyrants come out to play the 4++ can be an absolute life saver from the inevitable return fire. However I think the torrent of S6+ from eldar and tau really has limited their effectiveness. 116 point skyray = dead 260 point flyrant.

Yep, that's the tyranid way. It's also why tyranids have been successful on the whole in tournament play and why they normally average pretty higher than normal in tournament standings. You're fighting threat after threat but what most people fail to realize until it is too late is that the biggest threat is the non-threatening tervigons and the humble gants. They are usually what wins the game for me.

That's an interesting idea, getting the skyshield. I like it!

GTKA666 wrote:
ummmmm...I still consider it a loss lol, regardless of using the quad...though I might have just shot down the tervigon instead, but I definitely made mistakes that will be fixed. Our next game though....that quad might be better protected and no mawlocks in sight!

You may have just earned a shot at my quad-flyrant list next game.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Bloody hell, wasn't expecting that much of a comeback. Kudos to you sir

Thanks.

In all honesty, I wasn't expecting such a comeback as well.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Since even a best-case scenario does not end with an eldar victory, then why call it a draw?

Because while the chances are low, there is still a chance, if a long-shot one.

In any case, if the mistake wouldn't have made an impact on the end result, I would stick with the win. But this mistake had a chance, however small, of changing the outcome. Hence I declared it a draw.

 hippesthippo wrote:
For an unsuspecting opponent, it can be quite easy to lock an opponent into their deployment zone with Nids. In a 5 turn game, that alone can win you the match. Gargoyles are really good at it, as are spawned gants if momma bug stays fertile.

It's a tactic which Necrons also excel at thanks to Wraiths, Daemons with Dogs, etc., etc. In other words, you need to be prepared for that playstyle in a tourney and should have a plan in place for it.

For example, with my Chaos/Crons I have a squad of 10 Immortals which is joined by a Teleporty Cryptek 90% of the time. When I see this is going to happen to me, my Overlord will also join up with them, so they can teleport across the board and force my opponent to backtrack. When it works, it at least buys me a little room to breathe.

Just something to think about..

That is right. You always have to have a mobile component to your list in order to break away from the clutches of a MTO build. For eldar, I really, really like the jetbikes as just such a unit. IMO, they just may be the single most important unit in the codex. They don't have much offense and all they really do is hide, but more often than not, they are going to win the game for you. Alas, my opponent is trying not to use jetbikes in his list.

I can tell you this much. When I run allies, it'll either be necrons for the night scythes or eldar for their jetbikes. I don't need any other type of allies (with the exception of Chaos+Chaos).

 Janthkin wrote:
No ketchup with fish-men. Heretic.

Perhaps with fish sauce, then?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:
Jy2, have you ever considered not advancing your Flyrants turn 1? I find that they often do get shot down, or take damage, when I do this, and its often not worth it unless I'm facing a list specifically unsuited towards taking them down (Like template spam IG).

With such a heavy reserve presence, I think you would have been much better off taking on e turn to hide your Flyrants behind LoS blocking terrain or out of range. After all, you have a 42" threat range, there's no need to get close immediately. I have had a lot of success however with my Flyrants buckling down for one turn, then advancing turn 2 with all my reserves at once. Usually this is just WAY too overwhelming for opponents, and I can sink his army in one swift move. I just find that we Bugs do best with all our "attack" forces arriving all at once, piecemeal we tend to suffer.

Yeah, but a number of reasons caused me to play more aggressively:

1. First Blood.

2. A chance to diminish his offense, especially if I could wipe out a unit like the war walkers. It would also help to keep my guys alive if his offense gets reduced.

3. Getting in a position to kill his skimmers. The only way to do that is to fly over them and shoot them in the rear. That is why I needed to be in a forward position instead of waiting in the rear.

4. I was only expecting to lose 1, maybe at most 2 flyrants.


But next time, I think I'm going to play the waiting game.

GTKA666 wrote:
if you play the waiting game then you can call the the list "The Calm before the Storm"

I like that!

And that's pretty much most of my armies - necrons, daemons and tyranids.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Great game, btw. I agree, he really needs a unit of gjb with his farseer on a bike as well.

In my eldar list that I am working on, you're going to see a farseer on a jetbike....though all by himself and with the Mantle of the Laughing God. He is going to go around casting psychic powers with impunity.

The eldar list I am working on is going to be a tournament-winner. It really is a nasty piece of work.