Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My friend and I have been in a long disagreement of who the best CC SM army is; SW or BA. I've been telling my friend that BA have some pretty nasty CC guys while he believes the SW can just as equally be nasty and better at it. Which are better in Close Combat, SW or BA and if you want to say, how so?

Wolves are better overall but if you only compare the ability to fight in close quarter combat I´d say they are more or less equal.

BA have units which are some of the best CC units in the game. The blender Dread is a true monster in CC and the Death Company can tear face. Unfotunately BA can barely manage to get into CC with their good CC units.

SW have TWC and their CC weapon options are great. They can also get into CC as their TWC is pretty fast and resilient. The saddest part is that Grey Hunters laugh at BA assault marines as they beat them like naughty children.

I actually want to say BT but it wouldn't be true. If they get into CC though BT are awesome.

DA should be on there though as you can make an entire assault termie army with them. It is actually not bad either.

I have to go with Blood Angels. Both sides have highly mobile units that can shred face, but I think that the Blood Angels come out ahead, just barely.

BT is the top marines for CC I feel, yeah they are out dated now but if we compare all three during the BT times, I would choose them hands down without a blink every time. Even today tho, if you know what your doing they are the champ at choppy chop chop for power armour

Blood Angels have Death Company. Space Wolves don't.

Fluff-wise though it'd be the Templars, since that's all they do.

I really wanted my friend to play the BT, but my he refused because he "liked how the SW looked and thinks they will be better." And to be fair, the BT Codex is starting to show its age a little. Still wished he went for them though.

Blood Angels come out ahead of Space Wolves for close combat. Basic Marines (Grey Hunters and Assault Squads) are pretty comparable, and Blood Claws get as much of a nerf as a buff...so you have to look at the specialist units.

For the Wolves, this is really only Thunderwolves and Lone Wolves, everything else either has a BA counterpart or is geared towards shooting. Meanwhile, the BA units include Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, DC and Furioso dreads, and Vanguard vets. Lastly, most of these units can take jump packs.

From a troops perspective, SW pull ahead.

Being able to put a terminator in your squad gives a significant advantage, as you can 'tank' all the AP3 weapons.
Wolf standard is a big advantage. Its stupidly good when combined with the forementioned terminator armor.
You can take a model with MotW, and another model with a power fist.
They have counter attack so you can get your full attacks when charged.

BA have FNP.
BA have jump packs.

I did consider the wolf guard, but by contrast, if we're allowing adding minor characters then a Sanguinary Priest gives both FNP and Furious Charge, evening the playing field out again.

The banner, I will confess, I hadn't thought of and does give Grey Hunters a decent advantage.

Space Wolves. By a non-trivial margin. All the BA "HTH monsters" are overcosted. And counterattack and CCW is some of the most broken stuff I've ever seen on troops.

Ironically, the best BA dreadnought config is a shooting config. In the last calendar year, I've had exactly zero of my BA die to blood talon dreads. Real scary, those things. Oh wait, I think they killed a few with their HF. But probably not what people are looking for.

Close combat marines, that's cute.

Wolves shine at close range shooting and assault versus weakened units or gunlines, but fold against real close combat forces. Ba shine at being overpriced

my space wolves fought a BA at the start of 6th.

where I was ale to still shoot as we marched forward. the BA Jump packs and Bolt pistols couldn't get in range . since SW come with bolter BP and CCW. Allowing me to choose the time of assault. as I let him assault me I got over watch an counter attack. he didn't have the models left to do enough damage.

I am a more defensive player so do consider tactics as well.

both armies have there ups and downs.

My vote to the Space Pups.

I would say BA.
SW grey hunters with a terminator WG in front are the better troops, but they are slow and only really pull ahead because of the dual plasma gun for cheap(which isnt CC)

Thunderwolf Cav are ok, but ehh not that awesome.

Death Company are an insane CC unit

BA have TH/SS Terminators for less than 65 points per model, SW TH/SS are just too expensive.

BA have that 2+ save, jump troop unit (sang guard) which are a fun CC unit.

BA dreads are better

BA have access to FNP buffers

BA are better in CC. SW have better troops, but are worse in CC. SW are a much better army, but are worse in CC.

I don't understand how SW have as many votes as they do. BA are obviously superior in CC.

The only serious competitors with BA are GK in certain builds, and khorne CSM.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't understand how SW have as many votes as they do. BA are obviously superior in CC.

The only serious competitors with BA are GK in certain builds, and khorne CSM.

SW are the better army, and people are voting on that. BA are better in CC.

Play the BA sometime. You'll find out why the Space Wolves have so many votes. It's not obvious at all. In fact, I get my ass handed to me consistently by Space Wolves. Newsflash: BA in 6th aren't that good at HTH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't understand how SW have as many votes as they do. BA are obviously superior in CC.

The only serious competitors with BA are GK in certain builds, and khorne CSM.

That's not true, either. Plague marines make BA look silly in CC. I know this, because I've tried to fight them.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't understand how SW have as many votes as they do. BA are obviously superior in CC.

The only serious competitors with BA are GK in certain builds, and khorne CSM.

Or half the daemon codex. Or wraiths with Dlord. Or massed gaunts. Or plague marines. Or any of the eldar/d-eldar Death Stars

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't understand how SW have as many votes as they do. BA are obviously superior in CC.

The only serious competitors with BA are GK in certain builds, and khorne CSM.

You need to take another look at Grey Hunters. They make BA look silly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fluff-wise though it'd be the Templars, since that's all they do.

Fluff-wise has to go to the Flesh Tearers. There were accounts of Orks on Armageddon avoiding fighting FT because of their CC ferocity...

From a troops stand point, Grey Hunters are better, than assault marines in CC by a lot.

Essentially because I have counterattack and can shoot I should essentially never charge, and I will Beat your Face.

Just Stock 10 Assault Marines = 190 points
10 Grey Hunters = 150

So for those including a Priest when the wolf guard is in there is not really a fair comparison since with a Termy wolf guardthe Grey Hunter squad still clocks in at 183.

So at fairly even points, the Grey hunters will get to shoot at least 1 round, Shoot over watch, accept the charge with counterattack.

So assuming no Assault Marines Die Prior to the charge subphase.

They charge and Eat 22 Bolter shots killing 0.6 on the way in, (so say 1)

Then We both swing at I4 with 3 attacks (you get 4 on your sarge)

So you get 28 attacks and I get 30 + 3 Power weapon (say sword) attacks.

So we swing you do 2.3 wounds, I swing doing 3.25. So you are down to 6 Assault Marines and assuming my Terminator does not tank wounds I am at 8 Grey Hunters.

Now if I have the banner chances are good that I don't take as many wounds (maybe not any)

Now Neither army really has good CC specialist units. BA are more CC focused, but I think it is pretty close.

I play Space Wolves [since 1989] and Blood Angels.

I would overall give it though to the Blood Angels Army [Note the key word here Army].
Model for Model you could go on for pages, but I think I can sum it up with this:
Blood Angels are a Close Combat Army.
Space Wolves are a Shooty Army with Excellent Counter Assault.

Blood Angels can pull off an all Close Combat Army by just showing up and being Aggressive.
Space Wolves have to pull out Special Units and Special Characters to become a Close Combat Army.

Martel732 wrote:
Play the BA sometime. You'll find out why the Space Wolves have so many votes. It's not obvious at all. In fact, I get my ass handed to me consistently by Space Wolves. Newsflash: BA in 6th aren't that good at HTH.

Playing BA only shows that BA are not a very good army. Playing BA against SW shows that BA are not as good an army as SW.

This is about CC, HTH. Do you think the results would be different if you played the game with no shooting phase and no overwatch? Grey Hunters are a great troop choice, becasue they are ok in CC and good at shooting. We are only talking about CC in this thread.

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't understand how SW have as many votes as they do. BA are obviously superior in CC.

The only serious competitors with BA are GK in certain builds, and khorne CSM.

SW are the better army, and people are voting on that. BA are better in CC.

Then I guess the SW voters are also illiterate. The title of the thread and the OP are crystal clear. Whom are better at close combat? It doesn't say anything about whom has the better codex.

DC on the charge are pretty damn hard to beat.

Wolves. Far more versatile in CC than BA are.

+ThunderCav

I suppose that if we remove the shooting phase and overwatch, then BA furiosos would mulch every SW on the board. I just find that to be an answer to a very useless question.

So is the question:

1) Which codex is *functionally* better in CC? The Space Wolves. Because in a real game, those DC are never going to get to charge against a good player. I guess if you buy them a LR. But in general, they are going to be shot to death.

2) Which codex is better at CC in a game with no shooting? The BA. Furiosos (which would be shot normally) get to rofl stomp the Wolves. Doesn't seem very to be a very fair question to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SickSix wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't understand how SW have as many votes as they do. BA are obviously superior in CC.

The only serious competitors with BA are GK in certain builds, and khorne CSM.

SW are the better army, and people are voting on that. BA are better in CC.

Then I guess the SW voters are also illiterate. The title of the thread and the OP are crystal clear. Whom are better at close combat? It doesn't say anything about whom has the better codex.

DC on the charge are pretty damn hard to beat.

But extremely hard to use.

 Super Ready wrote:
I did consider the wolf guard, but by contrast, if we're allowing adding minor characters then a Sanguinary Priest gives both FNP and Furious Charge, evening the playing field out again.

The banner, I will confess, I hadn't thought of and does give Grey Hunters a decent advantage.

What you do is pop the banner on first turn of the assault (well, technically you pop it just before the assault round...)

You then take every wound thats not AP2 or AP1 and throw it on the terminator. The terminator can reroll failed saves of a 1, so has a 35/36 chance of tanking each wound.

I used this trick to once eat 15 wounds from an ork boy squad that charged. You should have seen his face when not a single wound was done to the wolves, who then chewed up the boys in the assault.

I have to give the advantage to the Wolves for two reasons.

1) Blood Angels are way overpriced per wound and per attack.
2) The +1 Strength from Furious Charge measures up extremely poorly compared to Wolf Standards.

As for Black Templars, with the change to AACNMO, Templars suck in combat. Having Rage only helps when you get to charge, and when you don't have to multiassault. Also, the BA and BT special weapon troopers have to give up an attack to take their meltaguns and flamers. Grey Hunters give up their longarm, but keep their axe and their secondary, meaning that they end up throwing more attacks back into the enemy than they take from an equal number of Astartes.

Tack on the TDAWG pack leaders, and the much more effective short range shooting, and the Wolves beat the BA and BT in face punching with their rank and file.

Moving to other slots, the Wolves have deathstars of Thundercav, and that's about it. BA have lots of options for grossly overpriced MEQs with an extra attack. BT have grossy overpriced MEQs with an extra attack, who have to pay for grenades.

 SickSix wrote:

Then I guess the SW voters are also illiterate. The title of the thread and the OP are crystal clear. Whom are better at close combat? It doesn't say anything about whom has the better codex.

DC on the charge are pretty damn hard to beat.

We are not illiterate. we just probabaly define CC defferently. What are you taking in to account for a good CC unit??

For me. its ablity to get in to CC. Number of attacks in CC. Survivablity. Number of models that get to CC. and im sure there is a few more.

Aside from BA's FNP i feel SW win out every time. cheeper better equiped models. BA can get ASMs as troops but they are to expensive for my tastes. Banner gives more attacks damage and saves. MotW gives more attacks.

i will admit that if you just slapped any squad of BA in to CC with SW the wolves would probabaly loose. But, the game is not defines as one action or phase its the whole game.

So before you start just randomly calling us names for having an oppion which every human is intitled to, you may want to explain why my Wolves beat BAs every time right now.

 SickSix wrote:
.

DC on the charge are pretty damn hard to beat.

on the charge

When was the last time you saw that happen?
It's not like any SW unit would be scared to charge DC and take away their only real advantage.