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Multiple times when speaking to people who want to start imperial guard, they would like to play foot guard., with an endless tide of guradsmen charging across no man’s land. From reading on the internet and my own experience, foot guard is not very competitive and more so, if one does not want to play a gunline

Is possible to have an aggressive foot guard build?
So far, my ideas have centered on maximizing the number of bodies on the table, by only giving special weapons to squad. Heavy weapons would only encourage to stand still.

The problem is you're talking about a unit that doesn't have any real durability in the open, doesn't have any speed bonuses to get it up the table faster or cover that extra distance to move all the way into cover, and doesn't really have all that much damage even when you do get in range. Meanwhile if you play a gunline army (preferably with Vendettas and Vultures/Avengers giving you a mobile element) you can focus on maximizing firepower, deploy in good cover with plenty of LOS for shooting, and count on the fact that pretty much everyone that isn't playing a Tau gunline is going to want to get up close ASAP and bring themselves into range without you ever having to move a model.

I completely agree with you Peregrine, that aggressive footguard is full of flaws and has lots of disadvantages stacked against it.
If we only consider objective missions for the moment, could you not put so many bodies on the table, that you could contest/cover them all? For example at 500 Pts. It is possible to have about 70 guardsmen with a special weapon in each squad.

Geraan wrote:
If we only consider objective missions for the moment, could you not put so many bodies on the table, that you could contest/cover them all?

The problem is getting them across the table to objectives in your opponent's deployment zone without having all of your guardsmen killed. You're only moving 6+D6" per turn (less in difficult terrain of course), and that's only if you don't shoot at all. More realistically you're looking at at least 3-4 turns just for movement, and if you stop to shoot very much you'll be lucky to get there before the game ends. And then you're taking casualties off the front, so add some more to that. Guardsmen die quickly, especially if you have to put them out in the open because getting cover would slow your movement too much, so that's going to be a lot of casualties.

End result: blobs are great at holding "home" objectives, but not very good at getting the other ones. Leave the blob behind the ADL and use other units to claim objectives elsewhere on the table.

Peregrine has covered a lot of what the Footguard are capable of doing, primarily better off sitting back and holding objectives. I have a friend that runs a pure infantry Guard army and runs them either as a gunline (usually) but I have seen him play aggressive with it, however if you really want to run an aggressive Footguard list there is a decent way, but you will need some allies to do it, try the following:

- If you take Azreal from the Dark Angels, he can give a squad Fearless and every single person in the squad a 4+ ward save. Take a squad of x50+ Conscripts or Guardsmen with this and place them in front of your army and march them up the field. They will give the rest of your units cover and will be tough to kill. And if you want to keep your fluff, take him and only a squad of scouts as a "Imperial Guard Commander in Power Armor" and "Guard Snipers".

-Also Dark Angel Dark Shrouds would go a long way in keeping your army from getting shot to pieces but realize that it can get destroyed quite easily.

-Pack your ADL with Heavy Weapon teams with at least a squad of x20 Guardsmen protecting them as a solid firebase. Creed is a good choice for this army as well since he can issue so many orders and can help your weapon teams bring down any armor or MC you come across.

-I would recommend taking some Vendettas with Door Gunners and to fit the theme of your footguard run them as "gunships" basically as Air Support called in to assist your advance, this will also help with any enemy flyers you may come across.

Hope this helps, if you have any more questions just ask!

I have run Foot guard (Both Krieg and Imperial) in 10 man squads. Sometimes they get wiped out from a single unit shooting at them, other times just picked off 3-4 at a time. You can use go to ground and get back in the fight to get them cover out in the open. You give the enemy too much to fire at.

If your versing marines a lot then try veterans in carapace or stormtroopers, they can be expensive but get you an armour save.

The funniest list i have tried is with a full 50 man platoon with lord commisar in it going up the middle of the board and 5 penal legion squads outflanking/scouting

Why not ally with C:SM Librarian and use GoI to teleport a huge blob 24” right into the enemy’s face

Frankly, there's a lot of comical options when using allies. Without them, its a thankless task,but. As long as you're okay losing a lot, it can be amusing, and pretty cool to watch.

No, it's not.

As has been mentioned, without by-unit cover saves, they just don't have the durability to get where they're going, and they no longer have the hidden weapon upgrades, which means they're doing less damage when they arrive.

Add to that the fact that close combat horde units are basically pointless now, and you've got to ask the question, what do guard infantry units gain from their enormous risks of running forward? As best I can tell, it's to try and get a few lasguns to double-tap sooner, but that's all. Not worth getting your army wiped out for that.

Other armies can still have a thesis that includes rushing forwards, but I have yet to see such a thing for 6th ed guard, especially given all the problems they have now.

 vim_the_good wrote:
Why not ally with C:SM Librarian and use GoI to teleport a huge blob 24” right into the enemy’s face

Because a blob worth taking has a huge footprint and the chance of a deep strike mishap is way too high.

Thank you for your comments, I feared the fotguard case would be hopeless.
Maybe I will try a foot horde at smaller point limits (~500), there I thin the dynamics might be slightly more advantagous.

I would not call it hopeless necessarily. Granted, it was a year ago, but Tony Kopach won the 2012 NOVA Open with an 1850 point SW/IG foot list.

HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker

Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist

Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist

Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner
Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Banner
Grey Hunters x5, Flamer

Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad

Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers
Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers

Njal (or any Rune Priest really; remember your allies!) brings cover saves in the form of Storm Caller or Forewarning. He also gives them Prescience and the Primaris Psyker goes on Biomancy (in one game giving him FNP for the whole unit via Endurance). ATSKNF and Saga of Majesty giving re-rolls on Morale checks helps keep the blob moving up field.

Lone Wolves escort the Blob. Long Fangs give covering fire, focusing on armor/MCs/flyers, Grey Hunters nab objectives and support the advance. PCS sits in cover by your home objective or what have you.

That many bodies is hard for most of the popular flyers to credibly threaten, and makes it hard for all of them to move about. Heldrakes would still be a problem, but Njal's powers hit flyers and if they shoot at guardsmen they aren't shooting your Long Fangs.


Of course, NOVA does table quarters so this isn't necessarily a perfect example. But its proven and readily available on the Internet. I'm not saying horde lists, let alone IG horde lists, are better than the alternatives found in-Codex, but I wouldn't discount them out of hand.

I don't know if winning a couple of games in a specific meta signifies a rebirth of aggressive foot guard, though. That list has a dump truck full of hard counters. Either the person in question was lucky during his games, or lucky that he was never paired off against someone who could instantly dismantle an infantry-heavy list like that.

Plain foot guard = not great
ATSKNF foot guard = awesome

Some combos you can do is take korsaro khan, a Libby, 2x5 tactical squad, 3x thunder fires, and 2 guard blobs and voila outflanking guard blobs with GoI, hit and run, furious charge and the like.

Or as said take the azreal blob, Or take a rune priest blob, see where I am going with this? I'm currently in the process of collecting/building 2 blobs to ally into my vanilla marines.

With Ailaros on this one. Whilst a very interesting build (Kopachs) a single (or perhaps 2-3 tourney wins) with that build dosent validate the question.
Remember NOVA et al, whilst large and varied tourneys, do use non standard missions, objectives and lots of other factors to determine a winner. Also they are purely US based (bar a few long haulers ).

OP - what sort of games are you playing? Friendly, LFGS, semi competitive, tournament?

@Cow - OP isnt really asking about horde lists - they are certainly viable, hes specifically asking about IG aggressive foot lists. (Dont know how Kopache played his but cant see them running 6" a turn every turn at the enemy - or some variation. Can you?).

Well, agro footguard could work if you saturate the field with more bodies than could possibly be killed.


1750 points

HQ
Lord Commisar-70

TROOPS

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250


331 models.

Luckily theres no "panic" rule in 40k.
LD could be a problem throughout no?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Well, agro footguard could work if you saturate the field with more bodies than could possibly be killed.


1750 points

HQ
Lord Commisar-70

TROOPS

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250

Inf Platoon-280
PCS(1)-30
IS(5)-250


331 models.

With not one single weapon above a flashlight? Not sure what this would accomplish other than wearing you out moving it all?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
331 models.

And not a single model that can even attempt to roll dice against a vehicle. I suppose it might be hard for some all-infantry lists to deal with, but you're going to automatically lose against mech lists.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
331 models.

And not a single model that can even attempt to roll dice against a vehicle. I suppose it might be hard for some all-infantry lists to deal with, but you're going to automatically lose against mech lists.

Well.. I dunno if I'd go that far. If the guard player goes second he can just attempt to win on objectives..

Either way, probably not the best strategy.

I'll act as an echo here and agree with most of the people saying aggro foot blobs aren't the way to go. Blobs are good as a relatively durable midfield scorer, but I wouldnt focus too heavily on bringing foot blobs. Plenty of weaknesses, especially with Tau being able to spam SMS/Markers and Eldar Serpent Shields.

 LValx wrote:
If the guard player goes second he can just attempt to win on objectives..

Yeah, but "win on objectives" is a pretty optimistic plan when you literally can't roll any dice on offense to stop your opponent from shooting you with their whole army every turn, tank shocking your units off the table, etc. I just can't see this army having enough models left at the end of the game to claim a majority of the objectives.

How can you win on objectives without being able to do much to take them?

Chancetragedy wrote:Plain foot guard = not great
ATSKNF foot guard = awesome

This would be true only if the main problem with foot guard was leadership. Leadership, though, has never been the biggest problem with foot guard in this codex.

No, the problem is that you're going to be up against a leafblower and the Sv3+ models are going to dissolve to colossuses and plasma guns, and the Sv5+ models will get instantly vaporized by chimera heavy bolters/flamers and a variety of other firepower. Worse, your opponent brings venom spam or a khrone list and everything is wiped out by a few hundred dice thrown at you.

The plain fact is that aggressive foot guard doesn't work because guardsmen die too fast. Even if you give them azrael, a 4++ is still only a 4++, and on T3 models, they're still needing to make those rolls a lot.

If you wanted to flood the board with troops then you should get SiNW conscripts. Then you actually can say you will definitely keep your objectives. Otherwise 331 models is not an impossible number of guardsmen to remove for some armies (SoB do pretty well) and any mechvet list will laugh at you as they tank shock you off your own objectives and keep all of theirs.

Aggro swarm can work at a casual/pickup game level with the help of DA Azzy 4++ blobbs, SoB FnP blobbs, and even SW cover save storm blobbs but in a tournament setting it is not used to aggressively push forward as templates of any kind will just remove you.

I tried out a new list style this week. The idea was russ tanks with conscript meat shields, advancing up the table. It worked quite well, as the 30 conscripts kept my demolishers safe for a couple of turns, before a lone warp spider exarch swept the 15 that were left alive. By that time they had already kept some fire dragons outside of their 2d6 range, so were quite useful. They then walked back on and claimed an objective.

My infantry were far more useful for other tasks than actually trying to kill things though. They stopped warp spiders and war walkers from deep striking/outflanking behind my russ advance. It was not exactly a foot horde, with only 30 conscripts, Chenkov, 30 guardsmen and a Lord Commissar as allies for my 1800 ABG list, but I did manage to play quite aggressively with them. The russes, vulture and manticore had all of the killing power, the infantry protected the tanks.

 gmaleron wrote:
- If you take Azreal from the Dark Angels, he can give a squad Fearless and every single person in the squad a 4+ ward save.

-Also Dark Angel Dark Shrouds would go a long way in keeping your army from getting shot to pieces but realize that it can get destroyed quite easily.

The two points are very true.
Guard blobs become extremely good with fearless or ATSKNF. Giving them a 4+ invuln save makes them twice as durable since they are usually denied their 5+ save anyway.

A dark shroud sitting next to a LRBT squadron, sitting behind an ADL is an nut that won't be cracked at range.

for aggressive guard try the IA 12 assault brigade and run 2 or 3 2 squad platoons.

Not saying it would be acceptable in a tournament though.

Geraan wrote:
Is possible to have an aggressive foot guard build?
So far, my ideas have centered on maximizing the number of bodies on the table, by only giving special weapons to squad. Heavy weapons would only encourage to stand still.

Just remember that aggressive can mean moving up to get within 24" so you can shoot your lasguns. Massive firepower is key.

Start your heavy weapons platforms in the forward 3rd of your blob. Keep them still while you move your blob foward (but keeping coherency) Shooting heavy weapons is on a per-model basis, not a per-unit basis, so if your autocannon models did not move, they can still shoot.

I've found that getting into range is no problem really. start on the deployment line. move forward 6". The enemy usually starts on the line aswell. That gets you 18" away. Frfsrf nets you 2 shots at up to 24" range, same as if they were in rapid fire. The problem then is hitting and wounding

I played a game recently where i was charging Rhinos 1st turn after they moved full then popped smoke.

Use a lord commissars leadership bubble or Creed and Kell to get orders out. For the honour of Cadia order and assault weapons would be interesting to play.

It's possible but it's success greatly depends on what you primarily face in your meta. I think for some, the assumption that aggressive foot IG means assault is flawed. The sweet spot for an aggressive style like this is 18"-24". An all out attack style can work but at the same time not everything needs to advance and get into assault. Allies can help this list, but in the long run it takes points away from cheap and deep that would be needed. :shrug:

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't know if winning a couple of games in a specific meta signifies a rebirth of aggressive foot guard, though. That list has a dump truck full of hard counters. Either the person in question was lucky during his games, or lucky that he was never paired off against someone who could instantly dismantle an infantry-heavy list like that.

Yikes. So Tony Kopach has lucked into his last couple of big wins. Gotcha.