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2000-pt Jy2's NEW Mechdar vs GTKA666's Footdar (Completed)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Which is the superior Eldar army?
Mechdar tastes great.
Eldar is eldar. It's a win-win for them.
Footdar is less filling.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

GTKA and I recently had a game with my tyranids against his elder:

2000-pt Golden Throne Practice Game - GTKA666's Footdar vs Splinter Fleet Pandorzilla

In that thread, I was talking about my new eldar army. Well, my opponent asked for another game this week and I decided to give my new mechdar a go. It is nowhere near complete as I scrambled to get all the pieces together. However, thanks to my friend SabrX, I was able to get the framework for the army - the wave serpents. I also had some eldar of my own that I have been collecting. There will be some proxies used in this game, but I was too eager to put my theory to the test. I also hope to show how competitive the new eldar codex can be. If you thought footdar was strong, wait til to check out my new mechdar.

This is also a practice game for the Golden Throne GT coming August 2-4 in Pleasanton, California. For more information, you can find the details here:

Golden Throne 40k GT Pleasanton, CA Aug 2, 3, 4, 2013


---------------------------------------------------------------------


2000 Craftworld Pangaea Mechdar Eldar (Jy2)


Warmaster Jy2.

Despite my experience in the game of 40K, this will be my 1st game ever as the space elves both in this and last edition of 40K. And while my opponent is a relatively new player, when it comes down to eldar tactics, he is the veteran and I am the noob.


Farseer - Jetbike, Singing Spear, Mantle of the Laughing God - Guide, Forewarning, Misfortune (Warlord)

Warlord Trait: Deepstrike within 6" of Warlord, no scatter

10x Guardians
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatter, Shuri-cannon, Holofields

10x Guardians
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatter, Shuri-cannon, Holofields

10x Guardians
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatter, Shuri-cannon, Holofields

10x Guardians
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatter, Shuri-cannon, Holofields

10x Storm Guardians - 2x Fusion Guns
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatter, Shuri-cannon, Holofields

3x Guardian Jetbikes - Shuri-cannon

9x Warp Spiders
9x Warp Spiders

Wraith Knight



2000 I.A.C. System Footdar Eldar (GTKA666)


My opponent for the game, Sean, is actually quite new to the game. He's only been playing for 3-4 months and the Golden Throne GT will be his first major tournament. BTW, he is trying to make his footdar work without the use of jetbikes.


This is an approximation of his list.


Autarch- Death Spinner, Chainsword, and Spider Pack

Farseer - Fortune, Guide, Prescience (Warlord)

Warlord Trait: Useless

10 Dire Avengers - Exarch, Power Sowrd+Shimmer Shield
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatter, Shuri-cannon, Holofields

10x Guardians
Wave Serpent - TL-Scatter, Shuri-cannon, Holofields

10x Guardians

Crimson Hunter - Exarch
7x Warp Spiders
7x Warp Spiders

3x War Walkers - 2x Scatter Lasers each

Big Daddy Wraith Knight - Suncannon, Scatter Laser

Nightspinner

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Is mechdar the superior eldar build, or are the footdar just as competitive. Love to hear what you guys think.


---------------------------------------------------------------------


PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Mechdar:

I must admit that I kind of blind-sided my opponent. Originally, I told him that I would most likely be bringing my Grey Knights + Necrons, but then all my eldar stuff started coming in. Moreover, SabrX was coming as well and he owns a mechdar army, so I thought this would be the perfect opportunity to try out my new army, mechdar. As for my opponent, in a tournament environment, you really don't know who you will be playing against. This will truly test how much of a Take-All-Comer's build his army is. Because believe me, mechdar is a tournament-capable army that you may just well face in a tournament.

Now which is the most competitive eldar build? Currently, there are 3 major builds IMO. First is the one that most people seem to be running currently - footdar with possible light mech (perhaps 1-2 serpents like GTKA's army) or with allies (especially with Tau like z3n1st or Dark Eldar like Reecius) or perhaps even both. Then there is the deathstar build like Grant Theft Auto's Seer Council Deldar army. Finally, there is what I consider the most balanced eldar TAC army, mechdar, with 5-9 AV12 skimmers. This type of army has a perfect blend of firepower, mobility, resiliency and anti-assault (i.e. get the heck out of there or just sacrifice a unit and then shoot them some more!). With all the twin-linked shooting, it can easily handle flyer armies as well (and FMC's). IMO, mechdar will be the predominant, successful tournament build for eldar. As some people have said here, it may be equivalent to necron flyer-spam in terms of army strength.

Now I don't consider my mechdar a full mechdar list. A full mechdar army will have up to 7-10 skimmers IMO. Instead, I'm running more of a hybrid mechdar build with only 5 skimmers and actually the majority of the army invested in foot units. While the wave serpents are good, the foundation of the army is still boots-on-the-ground. You may just surprise yourself if you think all you had to do was to kill some serpents. I've actually got a decent foot fire-base that can be somewhat resilient if near or in cover. I've got a beast of a giant in the army and I've got 2 very dangerous and very good units in warp spiders. Lastly, I've got a nigh unkillable (at least to shooting that does not ignore cover) force-multiplier with almost unlimited mobility. And if you want to ignore all the serpents and spiders in order to try to kill him, be my guest.

This will definitely be a tough fight for my opponent. It's not impossible for him, but he's got a steep mountain to climb. Moreover, I will be going 2nd in an objectives game. While he has the better chance of getting First Blood, I'm going to have the final say on who takes what objectives.


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Crusade - 3 Objectives


Deployment: Vanguard Strike


Initiative: Footdar


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Spoiler:
Night-fight is on.


Sean's deployment. He deploys his farseer outside of a wave serpent in order to cast his psychic powers.

He will be deep-striking his warp spiders + autarch.


Nightspinner hides behind the ruins.


I deploy everyone but my spiders and jetbikes. Storm guardians will be in the far-left serpent. Laughingseer will be hiding behind the ruins.

BTW, the TL-bright lances on some of my serpents are just TL-scatter lasers for the purposes of this game.

I tell my opponent that I will be playing my wraithknight very aggressively. With insta-killing wraith cannons, Forewarning and Misfortune, I pretty much have the advantage against his more expensive wraithknight.


Overview of our deployment.

My opponent then does his scout move for his walkers and I decline to seize the initiative.




-------------------------------------------------------------------


Footdar 1

Spoiler:

Footdar movement. Everyone gets a little closer because of Night-fight. Farseer casts his psychic powers before getting into his ride (with the dire avengers). I believe he puts Fortune on his own ride.


It takes practically his entire army, but my opponent manages to wreck the far-right wave serpent for First Blood.

Nightspinner is just barely out of range to shoot at the disembarked guardians, but the wraithknight does manage to see the closest guy. He shoots and I go-to-ground for 2+ cover and lose 2 guys only.

Not a bad start for my opponent. First Blood may come in handy for him, but it's still going to be a tough fight for him IMO.




Mechdar 1

Spoiler:

I cast Guide and Forewarning on the dreadknight. He then advances 12". Serpents slide along the board edge.


All my scythes move 6-12" along the board edges. I am doing this to protect my a$$ from his spiders next turn.


Farseer then turbos up the middle, making sure to keep out of LOS of his serpents and their cover-ignoring serpent shields.


War walkers don't stand a chance against all that S6/7 shooting. 1 serpent actually has no target so I move flat-out with it instead.


I also manage to take off 2 HP's from the left serpent (the non-fortuned one and without his farseer Warlord).

Wraithknight shoots at a serpent but he makes his jink saves.




Footdar 2

Spoiler:

Both units of spiders come in. The black unit (with autarch) scatters and almost mishaps.


Crimson hunter comes in and goes after my wraithknight. I felt this was a mistake by my opponent. If it was me, I would have gone after the wave serpents with it since all but 1 of my serpents fired their serpent shields last turn.


The rest of his army moves.


Both spiders battle focus and then shoot, taking off 2 HP's from the left storm guardian serpent and 1 HP from the right guardian serpent.


His serpents then kill another 1 of my wave serpents!


Crimson hunter takes off 2W from my wraithknight.

His wraithknight fires at my wraithknight as well but fails to wound.


Finally, the night-spinner shoots at my guardians and kill 4.


They would then fail morale and run away.


His autarch's unit then jumps into the ruins. The other unit of spiders jump into area terrain as well.

For the firepower that my opponent has, he is actually doing really well. 2 serpents down, 2 near death and 1 unit of troops gone. This is almost a best-case scenario for him. My opponent is actually making it a much tougher fight than I thought.

But it will all be over soon when my spiders come in next turn. Heh, heh....




Mechdar 2

Spoiler:
Unfortunately, none of my reserves comes in this turn.


Could this be an upset in the making? Stay tuned for more hot eldar-on-eldar action that would even make Slaanesh envious.....



Again, my Warlord cast his powers on Big Scary. However, I forget to cast Misfortune on his spiders.

Wave serpent then moves 6" and immobilizes itself. The guys get out.


As a matter of fact, all my guys get off. Serpents move as well.


Now here is the move that surprises my opponent. Originally I was going to advance my wraithknight, but since my spiders refused to come in, instead I move Big Scary back to deal with his autarch.


My farseer then turbo-boosts into the corner of my opponent's deployment zone. With his warlord trait (deepstrike within 6" no scatter), I'll let you take a guess as to what my tactics will be next turn.


I have to allocate more firepower than I thought (3 wave serpents) but I finally manage to take down his flyer.


Guardians run and then shoot down his warp spiders in 1 volley.


The rest of my army focus on his autarch's unit....I can't wipe them out! I do end up killing his autarch. However, his spiders make a ton of saves and then fail morale, thus, depriving Big Scary out of his assault.




Footdar 3

Spoiler:

My opponent's Warlord casts powers on his own unit. Eldar moves towards their objective.


Goldmember (my opponent's wraithknight) and the other serpent moves towards his other objective.

His spiders regroup.


Serpent down. I repeat, serpent down (by enemy serpent fire).


Actually, both of the serpents with 1 HP remaining gets shot down. The ensuing explosion kills 6 guardians from 2 units.


Night-spinner then kills another 4 guardians.


Finally, 1 unit of guardians fail morale and fall back.




Mechdar 3

Spoiler:

Say good-night Irene.

Both units of spiders (using fire dragons proxies) come in and deepstrike within 6" of my Warlord. I lose 2 to dangerous terrain.

My Warlord would cast Guide on 1 unit of spiders, Forewarning on another unit and Misfortune on Sean's unit of guardians by his quad-guns.

He tries to intercept them with his quad-guns but I make all 2 of my saves.


Jetbikes would come in as well and hide behind a building.


Unit of guardians continue to fall back but stay on the table. The larger unit of guardians move underneath the ruins to protect themselves from the night-spinner's barrage.


Storm guardians (using count-as guardsmen as I didn't have enough eldar infantry models) go after his spiders.


Finally, Big Scary goes after his Warlord's serpent and his objective.


Finally, my Warlord would turbo-boost behind his Warlord's ride. I am planning for an assault next turn.


Warp spiders run forwards and then shoots down 7 guardians. Fortunately for my opponent, they would pass Morale.


My other spiders run forwards as well but not all of them are in range to shoot. With Misfortune, I manage to kill 4 guardians. Again, they would pass morale.


My serpent finally manages to shoot down my opponent's first serpent.



Spiders then spread out with their assault moves.


Finally, storm guardians shoot down 2 spiders, who pass Morale. I then assault them....


....and lose by 1! Fortunately, my guardians would pass Morale as well.




Footdar 4

Spoiler:

I've got 4 serpents down. My opponent tries to make it a sweep as Goldmember goes after my last serpent.


Sean's last serpent goes after my Warlord. Remember that his serpent shields ignore cover. He would then disembark his dire avengers (who are Guided as well as Fortuned) and Warlord to go after my spiders.


Dire avengers go after my serpents. My opponent is really going all-out in a desperate gambit to take back the game.


Unfortunately, he can not kill off my spiders....2 still remains.


Night-spinner and his unit of guardians try to take out my other unit of spiders (with Forewarning) and only manage to kill 1.


At least Goldmember is able to take out my last serpent in assault.




Mechdar 4

Spoiler:
At this point, this is only about 10-minutes left in the game. This will be the very last turn.


I've got my objective secured.


I will wipe out his unit of 3 guardians as well as contest his objective with Big Scary. My Warlord will probably wreck his wave serpent as well.


Spiders will definitely kill off his guardians on his other objective.

Finally, I have my jetbikes which can take any objective.


With that, my opponent concedes so that we can move onto our 2nd game (between me, GTKA666, ImmotekhtheStormlord and SabrX).




Crushing Victory to Craftworld Pangaea Mechdar!!!





---------------------------------------------------------------------


POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Mechdar:

Spoiler:
As this is my first game with eldar, I will evaluate my army on a unit basis. But on the collective whole, I feel that my army just has too many units for Sean's list to deal with. Almost every unit is a threat and none stick out in particular insofar as target priority. Well, maybe the spiders, which was why I was forced to reserve them. My opponent has got some firepower. He just didn't have enough to deal with 5 serpents, their occupants and everything else as well. Even my spiders coming in late was not enough to give my opponent the edge he needed. He did well enough, taking out all my serpents, before my offense and mobility finally overwhelmed him.

My gameplan all along was to deal with his threats first, mobility second and scoring units third. My targets of priority were his shooty units (i.e. walkers, spiders, crimson hunter), then the wave serpents and finally his troops. Had his wraithknight advanced towards me, I would have dealt with him with my own wraithknight, but by him staying away, that gave me some breathing room to deal with his other units. But by large, I don't think the wraithknight is a huge threat, especially if you play him in a more defensive, counter-assault role.

Farseer: B+. I really like the Lone Ranger, the Laughingseer or whatever you want to call him. He is a force-multiplier as well as a great disruption unit. Particularly if he gets the Warlord trait where deepstriking units do not scatter within 6" of him. With that trait, I run him as a mobile homing beacon for my warp spiders. He can also threaten enemy tanks in their own deployment zone as well as the cheap, hiding scoring units. Overall, he is a great utility character that is hard to deal with unless the opponent has got some way to ignore cover saves.

Guardians: B. They came, they saw and they tried to kick butt. Wiped out a unit of warp spiders and helped to kill the autarch and other unit of spiders. Then go grab the objective. Can't really expect much more from them. A solid troop choice for the cost.

Wave Serpent: A. The majority of my offense this game. Although my opponent managed to kill all my serpents, they did combine to take out the war walkers, crimson hunter and 1 wave serpent. A solid transport that is very worth the price.

Warp Spiders: B+. Although they came in late (Turn 3) and didn't really get a chance to show off their "stuff", they did manage to kill some guardians and draw a lot of fire. Definitely a unit with a lot of promise.

Wraithknight: B. Another unit with a lot of promise. He didn't really do much damage - my opponent made all his cover saves against my WK's shooting and the unit of warp spiders fell back before my WK could assault. However, what he did do was to keep my opponent at bay. His true value lies in his ability to control the board. Otherwise, without him, my opponent would have probably played his Goldmember a lot more aggressively.

MVP: Wave Serpents. It was really a matter of teamwork, but I will give the MVP to my wave serpents because they did the majority of the damage. Ironically, my opponent had 1 of his 2 serpents survive but I had none out of 5 survive. Oh well, in the end, it doesn't matter if they live or die as long as they can contribute to the victory.




This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 18:22:35



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in ca
Rampaging Carnifex




West Coast, Canada

More tanks the better, I think! The serpents are going to be useful, but it's anyone's game...

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Serpents definitely are very good. However, there are some major nerfs to vehicles in 6E which has led to the meta trending towards more foot infantry-based lists and less mechanization.

Still, perhaps eldar may have turned that trend around. However, they will still need primarily 2 turns to get to an objective. 1 turn to move flat-out and the next turn disembark.


6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in be
Deranged Necron Destroyer






 jy2 wrote:
Serpents definitely are very good. However, there are some major nerfs to vehicles in 6E which has led to the meta trending towards more foot infantry-based lists and less mechanization.

Still, perhaps eldar may have turned that trend around. However, they will still need primarily 2 turns to get to an objective. 1 turn to move flat-out and the next turn disembark.


And it still is one of the best changes in 6th, nothing more hatefull than the 5th edition tankshock turn to loose the game...
Still even with the nerfs to vehicles, waveserpents are mighty resillient and will quickly become what Nightscythes are to Necrons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/13 06:46:15


You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator





74x S6 and 10-35x S7 could prove to be absolutely brutal. Looking forward to seeing if the stock knight can one-shot his sun cannon buddy.

The mech list seems very short on high strength/low ap shooting, I think some dragons or lance walkers could be a good addition, particularly against Tau.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The list i used for this game is pretty much the same just:

-a group of 10 guardians

- 1 warp spider from the 8 spider unit

+Night spinner

I am also thinking of calling my WK Goldmember (Going to paint gold on the bulbs of the top 2 vanes to make him more...goldy) and the army's name I.A.C. System(Instant Armament Change System, a Katekyo Reborn anime reference for how this list challenges me to master it before it becomes great.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/13 08:50:49


Color Scheme
Luggnath Army

Field testing>>>Paper testing 
   
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Major




Fortress of Solitude

I think as an overall build mechdar is superior. It negates the primary weakness of eldar infantry: their short range.

Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General 
   
Made in be
Deranged Necron Destroyer






 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I think as an overall build mechdar is superior. It negates the primary weakness of eldar infantry: their short range.


+1, that and it also negates the T3 squisch the Eldar are.

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Bay Area

It's great to see mech armies making a comeback in 6th ed. Multiple units of Guardians + Wave Serpents is very formidable. I look forward to reading the outcome of this match.

   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






 SabrX wrote:
It's great to see mech armies making a comeback in 6th ed. Multiple units of Guardians + Wave Serpents is very formidable. I look forward to reading the outcome of this match.


It's funny because I never really considered them dead, most people stopped taking rhinos and Razors because of first blood more then any other reason. I build lists that don't really on FB to win, I actually plan on losing it which makes me better prepared. I still think transports are great when used realistically, 5th just spoiled so many people because a 35pt box could survive all game long and you never had to leave it. I love the interactions 6th has brought in a mech list, they aren't an easy button but can be lethal when timed correctly. Hell drakes have scared some people back into transports but you still need to know how to use them to win.

WS spam is just another no brainer like the NS for necrons though IMO. It' not nearly as hard to use as other transports currently. It out shoots most peoples HS slots while being a dedicated transport and if that wasn't enough it has the resiliency of most fliers while impacting the game on turn 1. But that seems to be GW's Shtick, making nearly every book have obvious choices in each slot. It just seems most unbalanced when they do it with dedicated transports.

I look forward to seeing the stock WK ID the expensive one Footdar has their work cut out in this game, those serpent shields can fire every turn do to the footdars lack of AT. This should be rather one sided I fear.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





People are focusing on serpents and also overlooking jy2s 100+ rending shots if he rushes up turn 1 and disembarks turn 2.

My blog - Battle Reports, Lists, Theory, and Hobby:
http://synaps3.blogspot.com/
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





excellent my plan for people to underestimate my list is working!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/13 20:07:11


Color Scheme
Luggnath Army

Field testing>>>Paper testing 
   
Made in us
Major




Fortress of Solitude

GTKA666 wrote:
excellent my plan for people to underestimate my list is working!


...lol?

Is that a joke or an actual strategy?

Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General 
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






 hyv3mynd wrote:
People are focusing on serpents and also overlooking jy2s 100+ rending shots if he rushes up turn 1 and disembarks turn 2.


No not at all, first off in order to pull that trick his models can't have blessings cast on them if they are hopping out of their rides, secondly, with 40 bodies and only a 12" gun people OVER estimate the kill zone guardians have. If you move and deploy properly you can make it so he can never utilize those 80 shots when or where it would matter most. Remember you can't kill outside your range anymore which is why those squads could use a platform.

I honestly don't think that's the most brutal list either sadly, with dual FOC he can get 4-5 wraith knights for 960-1200. Not many lists can deal with 30 T8 saves that can easily grab cover from area terrain with a 12" jump. 5 pairs of heavy D canons is nothing to turn your nose up at either. Now thats maximum threat overload. Even with that many rending shots you can't deal with that many WK's and then you lose all your scoring bodies and any hope to finish those big boys off. Still plenty for 2 DAVU serpent squads with dual autarchs and 3-4 GJB squads. Add a comms relay to keep the bikes off until turn 4 and your golden.

That said I think the shuricats aren't being mentioned because they aren't going to win him this game. Staying hidden in the WS basically gets him an auto win in this game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/14 02:17:31


   
Made in us
Major




Fortress of Solitude

 Red Corsair wrote:
 hyv3mynd wrote:
People are focusing on serpents and also overlooking jy2s 100+ rending shots if he rushes up turn 1 and disembarks turn 2.


No not at all, first off in order to pull that trick his models can't have blessings cast on them if they are hopping out of their rides, secondly, with 40 bodies and only a 12" gun people OVER estimate the kill zone guardians have. If you move and deploy properly you can make it so he can never utilize those 80 shots when or where it would matter most. Remember you can't kill outside your range anymore which is why those squads could use a platform.

I honestly don't think that's the most brutal list either sadly, with dual FOC he can get 4-5 wraith knights for 960-1200. Not many lists can deal with 30 T8 saves that can easily grab cover from area terrain with a 12" jump. 5 pairs of heavy D canons is nothing to turn your nose up at either. Now thats maximum threat overload. Even with that many rending shots you can't deal with that many WK's and then you lose all your scoring bodies and any hope to finish those big boys off. Still plenty for 2 DAVU serpent squads with dual autarchs and 3-4 GJB squads. Add a comms relay to keep the bikes off until turn 4 and your golden.

That said I think the shuricats aren't being mentioned because they aren't going to win him this game. Staying hidden in the WS basically gets him an auto win in this game.


On average, actually, 100 Rending shots + the serpents puts down 2-3 WKs a turn.



Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General 
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 hyv3mynd wrote:
People are focusing on serpents and also overlooking jy2s 100+ rending shots if he rushes up turn 1 and disembarks turn 2.


No not at all, first off in order to pull that trick his models can't have blessings cast on them if they are hopping out of their rides, secondly, with 40 bodies and only a 12" gun people OVER estimate the kill zone guardians have. If you move and deploy properly you can make it so he can never utilize those 80 shots when or where it would matter most. Remember you can't kill outside your range anymore which is why those squads could use a platform.

I honestly don't think that's the most brutal list either sadly, with dual FOC he can get 4-5 wraith knights for 960-1200. Not many lists can deal with 30 T8 saves that can easily grab cover from area terrain with a 12" jump. 5 pairs of heavy D canons is nothing to turn your nose up at either. Now thats maximum threat overload. Even with that many rending shots you can't deal with that many WK's and then you lose all your scoring bodies and any hope to finish those big boys off. Still plenty for 2 DAVU serpent squads with dual autarchs and 3-4 GJB squads. Add a comms relay to keep the bikes off until turn 4 and your golden.

That said I think the shuricats aren't being mentioned because they aren't going to win him this game. Staying hidden in the WS basically gets him an auto win in this game.


On average, actually, 100 Rending shots + the serpents puts down 2-3 WKs a turn.




Its 80 shuricats + 15 canons, so it is actually not 100+ shots since the bikes will be off table I'm sure. The 80 aren't TL so ~53 hit and ~9 wounds ignoring the fact the WK can grab cover from area terrain or other WK's easily so one dead WK from all 40 guardians. The most important fact is that you will never get all 80 shots on a particular WK unless your playing a moron. So now the remaining TL canons will get about 13 hits and two more wounds and the SL will add one more. I don't count the shields because you will not want to shoot them at 5 sets of D canons but if you add them you will prolly get a second WK. So your maths a bit off since in static optimal conditions your killing 1-2 on average and your assuming again that you will somehow get every model in range, WK are too fast for that and if you boost up turn one they assault and explode the serpents with your models in it. I seriously think it would give his list trouble and the sad thing is, his list might me the toughest matchup in the game right now for a 5 WK army.

Autarch

2x 5 DAVU in WS with SL, SC and holos

3x 3 GJB SC

3 GJB

5x WK

Aegis with Comms relay

1994

or

Autarch w EJB

ADL w/ comms

6x 3 GJB w/ SC

6X WK

1961 everything stays off but the WK and has a 75% chance to stay off until turn 4.

lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/14 03:39:18


   
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Bottom line, Serpents are nasty. How you fill out the rest of the army will come down to "playstyle," and "preference."

Personally, I think Jims list could be better, but with 5 Serpents, his shooting and mobility will simply overpower most opponents. GTA's army will crumble to the superior firepower of Serpents.

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 hippesthippo wrote:
Bottom line, Serpents are nasty. How you fill out the rest of the army will come down to "playstyle," and "preference."

Personally, I think Jims list could be better, but with 5 Serpents, his shooting and mobility will simply overpower most opponents. GTA's army will crumble to the superior firepower of Serpents.


Well I am kind of taking this match as back ground entertainment. No offense intended to either player when I say that either. I say that simply because this matchup is a Faberge egg VS a 15lb sledge. I really don't see a game here barring ludicrous dice. So to kill time before we are entertained I figured we may as well grind out some truly "broken" lists. Jim's is strong but I think it's no where near the best especially considering dual FOC. That said I wouldn't expect anybody to buy 5-6 WK at $115.

   
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 Red Corsair wrote:
 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 hyv3mynd wrote:
People are focusing on serpents and also overlooking jy2s 100+ rending shots if he rushes up turn 1 and disembarks turn 2.


No not at all, first off in order to pull that trick his models can't have blessings cast on them if they are hopping out of their rides, secondly, with 40 bodies and only a 12" gun people OVER estimate the kill zone guardians have. If you move and deploy properly you can make it so he can never utilize those 80 shots when or where it would matter most. Remember you can't kill outside your range anymore which is why those squads could use a platform.

I honestly don't think that's the most brutal list either sadly, with dual FOC he can get 4-5 wraith knights for 960-1200. Not many lists can deal with 30 T8 saves that can easily grab cover from area terrain with a 12" jump. 5 pairs of heavy D canons is nothing to turn your nose up at either. Now thats maximum threat overload. Even with that many rending shots you can't deal with that many WK's and then you lose all your scoring bodies and any hope to finish those big boys off. Still plenty for 2 DAVU serpent squads with dual autarchs and 3-4 GJB squads. Add a comms relay to keep the bikes off until turn 4 and your golden.

That said I think the shuricats aren't being mentioned because they aren't going to win him this game. Staying hidden in the WS basically gets him an auto win in this game.


On average, actually, 100 Rending shots + the serpents puts down 2-3 WKs a turn.




Its 80 shuricats + 15 canons, so it is actually not 100+ shots since the bikes will be off table I'm sure. The 80 aren't TL so ~53 hit and ~9 wounds ignoring the fact the WK can grab cover from area terrain or other WK's easily so one dead WK from all 40 guardians. The most important fact is that you will never get all 80 shots on a particular WK unless your playing a moron. So now the remaining TL canons will get about 13 hits and two more wounds and the SL will add one more. I don't count the shields because you will not want to shoot them at 5 sets of D canons but if you add them you will prolly get a second WK. So your maths a bit off since in static optimal conditions your killing 1-2 on average and your assuming again that you will somehow get every model in range, WK are too fast for that and if you boost up turn one they assault and explode the serpents with your models in it. I seriously think it would give his list trouble and the sad thing is, his list might me the toughest matchup in the game right now for a 5 WK army.

Autarch

2x 5 DAVU in WS with SL, SC and holos

3x 3 GJB SC

3 GJB

5x WK

Aegis with Comms relay

1994

or

Autarch w EJB

ADL w/ comms

6x 3 GJB w/ SC

6X WK

1961 everything stays off but the WK and has a 75% chance to stay off until turn 4.

lol



Fair enough.

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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
GTKA666 wrote:
excellent my plan for people to underestimate my list is working!


...lol?

Is that a joke or an actual strategy?


idk...I am making you doubt if I am serious or not. Is that in itself making the list work?

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GTKA666 wrote:
 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
GTKA666 wrote:
excellent my plan for people to underestimate my list is working!


...lol?

Is that a joke or an actual strategy?


idk...I am making you doubt if I am serious or not. Is that in itself making the list work?


Why not? Overconfidence can really screw up an opponent. We've all had a game that we should have won that we just didn't. I've used it a few times. Not in my list itself, but Tyranids overall and the reputation they had in late 5th early 6th. Of course, that has been cleared up mostly but it still exists in people who don't play Nids often. GTKA probably won't be underestimated because jy2 has played him before, and recently, and took enough hits to be cautious. It is overall viable if unreliable.


 
   
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Correct in that jy2 won't underestimate me because we both know how each other play and well he knows to be cautious against Eldar. Really jy2 surprised me because I thought I was playing against his GK Cron army, but instead I show up and SabreX is giving him Eldar WS and I just curse under my breath. Just like the nids fight, don't underestimate the power of the list and don't decide on the victor so early .

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GTKA666 wrote:
 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
GTKA666 wrote:
excellent my plan for people to underestimate my list is working!


...lol?

Is that a joke or an actual strategy?


idk...I am making you doubt if I am serious or not. Is that in itself making the list work?


So you are saying that the list is specifically DESIGNED to look/be sub-optimal, whilst it contains hidden potential? If it was your plan all along to make it look worse than it is, and that is was 'working', why would you blow your 'plan' by declaring it aloud? Kind of defeats the purpose.

I didn't know whether or not you were serious because of the reasons above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/14 15:49:00


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GTKA666 wrote:
The list i used for this game is pretty much the same just:

-a group of 10 guardians

- 1 warp spider from the 8 spider unit

+Night spinner

I am also thinking of calling my WK Goldmember (Going to paint gold on the bulbs of the top 2 vanes to make him more...goldy) and the army's name I.A.C. System(Instant Armament Change System, a Katekyo Reborn anime reference for how this list challenges me to master it before it becomes great.)

Thanks! Corrections made.


djn wrote:
74x S6 and 10-35x S7 could prove to be absolutely brutal. Looking forward to seeing if the stock knight can one-shot his sun cannon buddy.

The mech list seems very short on high strength/low ap shooting, I think some dragons or lance walkers could be a good addition, particularly against Tau.

Didn't the Internet tell you? S8/9 shooting is out. S6/7 shooting is the new vogue.


 SabrX wrote:
It's great to see mech armies making a comeback in 6th ed. Multiple units of Guardians + Wave Serpents is very formidable. I look forward to reading the outcome of this match.

Good to see you making a comeback to gaming as well.


 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
GTKA666 wrote:
excellent my plan for people to underestimate my list is working!


...lol?

Is that a joke or an actual strategy?

I believe it's sarcasm that underdogs like to use.

My favorite is when one of my opponent's goes "I've got this!" after I bend his army over and give it to him.


 Red Corsair wrote:
 hyv3mynd wrote:
People are focusing on serpents and also overlooking jy2s 100+ rending shots if he rushes up turn 1 and disembarks turn 2.


No not at all, first off in order to pull that trick his models can't have blessings cast on them if they are hopping out of their rides, secondly, with 40 bodies and only a 12" gun people OVER estimate the kill zone guardians have. If you move and deploy properly you can make it so he can never utilize those 80 shots when or where it would matter most. Remember you can't kill outside your range anymore which is why those squads could use a platform.

I honestly don't think that's the most brutal list either sadly, with dual FOC he can get 4-5 wraith knights for 960-1200. Not many lists can deal with 30 T8 saves that can easily grab cover from area terrain with a 12" jump. 5 pairs of heavy D canons is nothing to turn your nose up at either. Now thats maximum threat overload. Even with that many rending shots you can't deal with that many WK's and then you lose all your scoring bodies and any hope to finish those big boys off. Still plenty for 2 DAVU serpent squads with dual autarchs and 3-4 GJB squads. Add a comms relay to keep the bikes off until turn 4 and your golden.

That said I think the shuricats aren't being mentioned because they aren't going to win him this game. Staying hidden in the WS basically gets him an auto win in this game.

Not a big fan of wraithknight-spam. It is a truly unbalanced build that will over-power some and get taken out by others. That list is screwed if it ever goes up against any true horde army, including orks, nids, zombie Chaos, IG blob squads or even the seer council/harliestar to name a few. These armies really don't care about a few S10 shots.


 z3n1st wrote:
Enough chatter I demand battle!

Ask and ye shall receive....


GTKA666 wrote:
Correct in that jy2 won't underestimate me because we both know how each other play and well he knows to be cautious against Eldar. Really jy2 surprised me because I thought I was playing against his GK Cron army, but instead I show up and SabreX is giving him Eldar WS and I just curse under my breath. Just like the nids fight, don't underestimate the power of the list and don't decide on the victor so early .

Sorry about that buddy. I just couldn't resist trying out the new army any more than a pre-pubescent kid can resist pron on the internet.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/14 15:29:54



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In response to your earlier comparison of mechdar to the Cron Bakery, I would call it superior, simply because of the extreme vulnerability the bakery has to some Tau builds.

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Well I was either getting 2 games in against Necron+GK or serpent spam Necron+GK. I am actually glad that I faced serpent spam because I now know how to use my WW...Not like I used them in this battle . I hate night fighting sooo much because it just puts a huge dent in my plans to throw fire down field and make sure you were not able to recover from the carnage.

@ WIlliam- your just going to have to decide for yourself what I am trying to do with my list and see if I am truly trying to make people underestimate my list or not. Don't listen to jy2 because he doesn't know what he is saying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/14 19:00:09


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 jy2 wrote:
Not a big fan of wraithknight-spam. It is a truly unbalanced build that will over-power some and get taken out by others. That list is screwed if it ever goes up against any true horde army, including orks, nids, zombie Chaos, IG blob squads or even the seer council/harliestar to name a few. These armies really don't care about a few S10 shots.
And Daemons; don't forget the daemons. A nice horde of Seekers would love to see 5 WKs to play with.

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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
In response to your earlier comparison of mechdar to the Cron Bakery, I would call it superior, simply because of the extreme vulnerability the bakery has to some Tau builds.

I think they are fairly evenly matched.

But don't worry, we will put it up to the test. Coming right after this report will be my mechdar versus arguably my most competitive army - my Wraithwing Tesla-crons (as piloted by SabrX).


GTKA666 wrote:
Well I was either getting 2 games in against Necron+GK or serpent spam Necron+GK. I am actually glad that I faced serpent spam because I now know how to use my WW...Not like I used them in this battle . I hate night fighting sooo much because it just puts a huge dent in my plans to throw fire down field and make sure you were not able to recover from the carnage.

@ WIlliam- your just going to have to decide for yourself what I am trying to do with my list and see if I am truly trying to make people underestimate my list or not. Don't listen to jy2 because he doesn't know what he is saying.

Lol. Footdar is deceptive for a reason. On paper, they don't look so tough. But facing them as commandeered by a competent general is an altogether different experience. Fortunately, I've had a lot of experience playing against footdar recently. However, playing as eldar....well, that is an altogether new experience for me entirely (kind of).


 Janthkin wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
Not a big fan of wraithknight-spam. It is a truly unbalanced build that will over-power some and get taken out by others. That list is screwed if it ever goes up against any true horde army, including orks, nids, zombie Chaos, IG blob squads or even the seer council/harliestar to name a few. These armies really don't care about a few S10 shots.
And Daemons; don't forget the daemons. A nice horde of Seekers would love to see 5 WKs to play with.

Yup. Slaanesh daemons, especially of the horde variety, will give them trouble as well. Daemons are another great codex that I rank pretty high up there along with Tau and Eldar. However, the randomness of their nature, will mean that they are a less consistent army of the 3 in terms of victories. But when they are on, they are near unbeatable (except probably by tyranids).




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Yay im compitent! I did some thinking and i really should have saved my WW and popped in and out behind that cover in order to save more glancing power! Asfor the hunter....yea that was a bad choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/14 21:28:23


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