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I'm wondering what exactly the Imperial Guards general method of combat is when fighting a pitched battle. Obviously, depending on regiment type, and the odd quirks, idiosyncrasies and preferences that certain regiments will have, this question won't be that clear cut, but for a general overview: What is the general IG tactical doctrine?

To put this in context, I'm intending, in the future (not too distant I hope), to start off an IG regiment based on the Napoleonic British Army. Hence, this regiment will be modeled fluff wise, and possibly in reality, around a certain tactical doctrine - on the attack they would be advancing in ranks, breaking the enemy with volley fire and bayonet charges. On the defence, they would still be using volley fire, but from a static position behind cover. The only exceptions to this will be attached Heavy Weapons teams (modeled along the lines of Napoleonic artillery batteries which were used in a fire support role), Sniper teams (Who will be modeled around the 95th Rifles or Light Infantry of the Napoleonic Era) and attached APC's, Heavy Artillery and Tanks. Siege warfare would be conducted in a different manner - but seeing as both the IG and the Napoleonic British Army simply used massed assaults through wall breaches, I don't have to put too much thought into that aspect.

So my question to you is: Would the doctrine I've stipulated above fit in with how the IG fight in general - or is it simply ridiculous or way to different from how they usually fight?

Yeah, that sounds like something a "more direct" imperial guard commander would do. I think it was in the damocles gulf crusade that entire catachan regiments were being fed into the meat grinder, to the point were tau munitions couldn't keep up. Also, some rough rider conversions to represent british cavalry for assault, and chenkov (not the actually model though) could be good for sieges

In the general, wider context of the setting, I'd say it's hopelessly outdated. The "general" Guardsman is a Cadian, and the "general" model for Guard regiments as far as tactics and doctrine go are the Cadian Shock Troops. They're a pretty standard depiction of sci-fi era "space soldiers", drawing their inspiration from many of the same sources that, say, the colonial marines and mobile infantry of Aliens and Starship Troopers (respectively) fame do. As such, they in turn are influenced by real world military forces that are perhaps the most famous, i.e. WWII and 'Nam era troops.

However as you pointed out, the Imperium in its entirety and the Guard itself is vastly varied. This is even more true of the PDFs, but even when they operate on WWI models, they're generally regarded as outdated compared to the Guard. For this reason I can easily see your idea working for a PDF force, but if the world were ever to raise a Guard regiment, I'm guessing they'd have to pass whatever stands for basic training, which will be more standardised and closer to the Cadian model, and then given access to standard issue weapons and equipment (lasguns, heavy bolters, LRBTs, Navy support, etc), which would render their current line of battle obsolete.

Sounds kinda like the Mordian Iron Guard? I thought lots of regiments in the fluff used the rank formation in battle.

They die.

TiamatRoar wrote:Sounds kinda like the Mordian Iron Guard?

I read OP's post and this was the first thing that came to my mind as well.

Warpig, if you have these books, I greatly suggest reading about the Mordians in the 2nd and 5th edition IG codices. I think they'd fit your bill.

Thirding on theMordians. The 3rd edition codex rven had special rules covering clise order drill. You got benefits for stacking your troops in close ranks.

Sounds like the Praetorians to me

mordians, but they use massed regiments as a distraction to powerful (blast) weapons, so that the tanks standing behind can fire away unhindered.

No mention of Praetorians yet? Not quite the same Time period but not too far off either.

At 3rd ed, the IG-dex had tons of unforms as inspiration for the fanbase.
Volley fire = FRFSRF. Right there.
You could even have Cavalry...

So basically there is nothing the IG can't be. Its sci fantasy, Napoleonic uniforms plus lascannons is ok.
The munitorum swaps the muskets/rifles with lasguns, even Cadians got bayonets in their plastic kit...

Horse artillery > Sentinels
Lancers > Cavalry
Line infantry > IG blobs
Field Artillery > HWT

Plus, we have Vostroyans who are Cossaks in space.

Thanks for the help people!

@Anfauglir - I thought as much in that the IG would operate more along the lines of modern soldiers in most combat situations - open order, skirmishing etc. However I was more thinking in a pitched battle scenario - i.e across an open battlefield, where cover is probably at a minimum. Plus, I don't neccassarily mean the full regiment would be arrayed in line (although I can see why you would think that given the Napoleonic theme), it could be squad volleys, platoon volleys or company volleys depending upon situation and enemy type. However, it's purely hypothetical fluff to fit in with the actual model theme. I'm not sure how to incorporate the volley tradition into the regiment as I want it to remain an essentially functional and effective regiment, but with the Napoleonic feel to it. I guess I'll just have to experiment. Cheers anyway.

@TiamatRoar, Lynata, Flinty and Bazakhain - I forgot about the Mordian Guard, but yeah, similar however check the next line down...

@Lightcavalier and Eetion - This is the real inspiration for this project. I'm massively passionate about my nation's (Great Britain) extensive military history, so Praetorians would be an instant hit. However, I didn't like the way the fluff presents Praetoria being a harsh world in which draconian punishment and the oppression of the poor is prevelent. Supposedly, the Praetorians fluff is based on the British Empire, but I think this particular view, Whilst I'm not disputing the Empire had it's darker moments (Because it most certainly did), it did bring great benefits, great understanding and advancement to the world in a world-changing capacity. Hence, I wanted my IG to represent the era of Great Britain where enlightenment, understanding, honour and pride were at their zenith - the Napoleonic/Regency period.

@1hadhq and a ba3ched whal3- I've already made all the 'mirrors' between branches/regiments of the British Army and made IG, but thank's for pointing out the cavalry aspect. I had a slightly different idea for Horse Artillery though - heavy weapons teams with the guns mounted on chunky wheeled carriages, but drawn by Tauros vehicles.

I think I should have mentioned that whilst my IG will be heavily Napoleonic Themed in terms of uniforms and such, they will take a decidedly practical stance - so body armour, respirators (possibly) and vehicles will all be utilsed to give it a distinctly utilitarian feel.

As previously mentioned, the rank fire Order pretty much simulates how it worked in the period you talked about. I read an article with someone doing re-enactments for that sort of stuff and his reloading times were pretty spot-on. 15 secs is what you need for a careful reload of a musket, but when doing volley fire people handle it in 5-8 secs. And 2 out of 10 fail... but they'll shoot the next cycle.

Thanks Spetulhu, I'm not too fussed about the gaming side of it (I gather the Rank Fire order you are referring to is a gaming rule?).

As for the timings, you're slightly off, but not by much. I am a bit of a Napoleonic aficionado so I'm familiar with the tactics employed by the various armies at the time particularly the British. For the British Army, they reckoned that 3 shots a minute was the average for a trained fusilier, as proved by the 1802 test by a Coldstream Guards Sergeant - however the Sergeant did go on to say that provided he filled his pockets with cartridges, he could average around 4 shots per minute (However this was officially prohibited, but would probably have been done anyway on campaign). So yeah, your about right in saying that 15 seconds is approximately correct for reload times.

However, IMHO, I think your slightly off by saying people (and by this I take you meant individuals - apologies if it's otherwise) reload in 5-8 seconds when firing in a volley. I say this merely because 12-7 rounds per minute would be practically impossible under battlefield conditions and taking into account the laborious method used to reload. With the predominantly British-used two-rank system, a platoon (not in the modern sense - simply a detachment of soldiers, anywhere between company and regiment strength) was expected to fire roughly 6 rounds a minute. However this was calculated at each rank firing in cycle, i.e. each rank averages at firing 3 rounds a minute, but due to the cycle, the platoon as a whole is firing six volleys per minute.

I hope I didn't come off as an uppity git there, but it's just I'm particularly passionate about it so I thought I'd share the knowledge.

No, don't apologise. The figures I had was just from a re-enactment rifleman who wasn't getting shot at by the enemy at the time. But still, he said when doing volley fire you tried to reload faster (and often failed). He didn't say if the armies of that time tried for it, but that's how they do when re-enacting it.

In fact, there were times when armies from that time just discarded musket fire and tried bayonet charges instead. Especially if they had bad weather to make the powder suck up moisture or just general bad supply lines leaving them with bad powder to begin with.

edit: and the rule mentioned is from the IG Codex: First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire - in essence making an infantry squad fire an extra shot. They are doing volley fire in a sense.

My figures are just going by several Napoleonic books I have lying around, but I'm not disputing the re-enactor, especially if he's actually practicing it

Bayonet Charges, whilst in use by almost all armies of the 17th-18th century era, were pretty much perfected by the British Army. Usually, close ranged volley fire would be used to push an enemy to the point of wavering, and then the British Infantry would use the cold steel to break them, and whilst the charge itself wasn't particularly damaging in terms of casualties, it was the sheer intimidation and loss of morale that really broke and enemy formation. I'm not sure if other armies still have bayonet training but the British Army still include it within Phase 2 of the CIC (Combat Infantryman's Course), it's just as well because there's still a use for it.

3 Rounds per minute was good. A lot of armies only managed 2.

Individually people could be faster, but they were constrained by orders.

This man is very good considering he follows for the most part the proper procedure, and he managed 3 in 46 seconds, so about 4 a minute.




Some crack companies managed 5 rounds a minute, which frankly is quite impressive when you look at how much has to be done.

I have a Praetorian kill-team in progress. I do agree with you on the background for the Praetorians so I've decided it's silly and they're just gonna be British Empire guys in space...
I have several models from various parts of the Empire...

Ultimately, yes.

The thing is, in the fluff, each Imperial Guard Regiment (and there's about a trillion of them) are completely individual. Uniforms, recruitment, training, and weapons are completely left up to the Regiment's home planet to sort out, granted 'a lot' copy the Cadian pattern, but 'a lot' is a relative term when you're talking about the amount of Regiments in the Imperium. The only thing that the Munitorum state is mandatory is that Imperial Guard Regiments must be armed with lasguns as their primary infantry weapon. The pattern/model of that lasgun is irrelevant.
The Munitorum doesn't care if the Regiment is uniformed in camouflage, is trained in modern fighting techniques, and carries the most advanced technological weaponry for the time, or is uniformed in pink wool with feathers, trained in shin-kicking and carries wind-up lasguns; as long a they get the men to be used in His name.

I see no reason why a 'Napoleonic' Imperial Guard Regiment wouldn't exist. Sure, the tactics are outdated, but again, IMHO, that's a relative term. If that's how that particular home planet trains its armies, then that's how it trains its armies. It's just like anything else; would a Regiment of Catachan Jungle Fighters be the ideal soldiers to send to a desert planet? No, but it happens. Just because you've got a Regiment trained in liner, volley-fire tactics doesn't mean they wouldn't be sent someplace frakkin' awful to fight.

And, as others have said, liner, volley-fire tactics are written into the Imperial Guard canon; the Mordian, and Praetorian Regiments.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
My figures are just going by several Napoleonic books I have lying around, but I'm not disputing the re-enactor, especially if he's actually practicing it

Well, he's practicing and no one is shooting him with 12mm musket bullets. 3-4 shots a minute are very good, the faster times he (in times of peace) cited were for volley fire where they practiced it with no one shooting back.

On the other hand, seeing how inaccurate the guns of that time were I wouldn't be surprised if a man kept reloading with bullets flying around him. After all, your wish to hit that man were also subject to your quality of gunpowder, the craftsmanship of your gun and the care taken in crafting your bullet. A badly crafted lead ball could splinter on firing, going whereever. A bad barrel would shake those bad bullets loose, making them go whereever. And regardless your accuracy was 150 meters or so. Praying to god to protect you was a very good means of staying alive, simply because the enemy couldn't hit you.

Whoever this re-enactor is, he's an outlier. He apparently fires over twice as fast as the drilled average of the time.

[quote=MrDwhitey 539646 5845073 0cba2da22840ffa37090e9205ae1c5b0.jpg twice as fast as the drilled average of the time.

I'm talking about loading times also.

And stress is more likely to cause delays and mistakes, like firing off ramrods by accident.

5-8 seconds is pretty much absurd magical thinking for even well drilled troops. Those times your claiming are massive outliers, and frankly I think whoever told you them was lying.

5-8 seconds is absurdly fast...
If he can do it in 5-8 seconds then he isn't just an outlier he is the outlier.

Excuse me, but those are just re-enactors - 15 secs is what they managed with no pressure, 5-8 secs was with extreme need where 2 of 10 failed. And as I said, this was making modern people fire weapons where they can't get killed if the enemy doesn't stop after a volley. Plenty of examples where suitably motivated enemies have just disregarged muskets too.

As you say the numbers look a bit different with real soldiers and real enemies shooting back - but then so does the theoretical firing speed of any modern infantry weapon.

Nope, if they're using muskets of the time, and cartridges etc, it's still a massive outlier. That's all.

@MrDwhitey - That guy was good, and if he wasn't having to reach back into his pouch, then he could theoretically reach 4 rounds per minute. It's generally accepted that the British Army as a whole was the preeminent and best-drilled military in terms of musketry in the Napoleonic Wars and the crack troops you mentioned, which would have been the Guards, Light Infantry or Rifle regiments (If the Rifles had been using a smooth-bore musket for arguments sake), would quite routinely reach 4 rounds per minute.

@purplefood - I'm not sure why all the British themed regiments within 40K, the Praetorians, the Pyran Dragoons etc. are all based on the worst aspects of Britain. It's quite perplexing as Great Britain has an illustrious and proud military history that really isn't rivaled by anybody - apart from, arguably, the French, who have just as long and proud a military history (Although we British do have a habit of kicking their )

@Tower75 - My question was kind of aimed at finding out if the Guard ever has a use for volley fire. I'm sure on Lexicanum there's a bit about how they use mass volleys, which supports my fluff, but I really can't see how the use of volleys is going to be effective in the 40K setting.

@Spetulhu -

Spetulhu wrote:And regardless your accuracy was 150 meters or so

More like 90m with a Brown Bess, a rifle on the other hand was pretty much pinpoint accurate to 200m. There's even instances during training where Major Hamlet Wade, and riflemen Smeaton and Spurrry of the 95th Rifles used to practice by one man standing at 200m with a small face sized target held above his head, whilst his file partner would shoot it, simply to demonstrate accuracy. Furthermore, the famous Rifleman Thomas Plunket was renowned for killing the French cavalry General Auguste de Colbert and a trumpet-major who went to the general's aid at 600 metres. To kill two men at 600 metres, even with a modern scoped rifle, is still an impressive feat, but using an 18th century black powder rifle over iron sights is remarkable.

I have to say though, 5-8 seconds to load, prime and fire a musket is a pretty tall order considering that, at least in the British Army, the men who could achieve a mere 4 rounds a minute, even under training conditions (As I said before about the 1802 Trial), were the nations elite troops and were drilled to an incredibly high standard. Now admittedly, there is a procedure called 'tap-loading' - essentially, the cartridge is opened, the pan is primed and the cartridge is pushed into the muzzle in a standard method, but then the stock of the musket is slammed against the ground jogging the ball down the barrel with no need for ramming. However, even this would only marginally increase speed, and is highly unreliable, so I still think that 7-12 shots per minute, at a speed of one shot per 5-8 seconds is still a very tall order for a modern re-enactor in test conditions using tap-loading. Sorry...

Even tap loading you couldn't do it...
The best troops at the time could do 4 maybe 5 in a minute under perfect circumstances (No rain and no one shooting back)
3 a minute was the target for most frontline troops while most armies managed 2 due to their conscript nature.
Keep in mind that you'd get 3 a minute with fairly consistent and intense drilling.
4 a minute would be incredibly intense drilling and 5 would reflect an extraordinary individual.
1 shot every 5-8 seconds? Either whoever is claiming they can do that is the fastest loader ever or he's lying... I don't think it's possible...

It isn't possible - not 7-12 rounds a minute even under perfect conditions as I said above. As for an extraordinary individual being able to shoot 5 rounds a minute, Bernard Cornwell, in his novel 'The Fort' has one of the main characters as Sir John Moore, one of Britain's more famous generals and a major reformer and campaigner for the training of the British Light Infantry at the time. In the book, Cornwell states that Moore was capable of 5 shots per minute, although that could be poetic license. In theory, with one already loaded, and then being able to reload 4 shots per minute, then it is conceivable of a well-drilled individual getting out 5 volley's per minute, but I don't think it was ever standard practice simply because of the risk of the powder becoming damp in the barrels if condensation etc. occurred during the march.

Interesting though this discussion is I don't think that it is relevant to the OPs question since IG regiments will be outfitted with Lasguns by the Munitioum as standard, not muzzle loaders. (btw that chap didn't really aim and his third shot was nearly as dangerous to him as it would have been the enemy )

The look could certainly be as 18th Century British infantry but the arms and opponents would dictate the tactical use.

To get as close to the OP's theme I would see the regiment as Rifles of the time with a heavy bent toward Light companies/Skirmishers. So basically cover and accurate fire in most circumstances.

I would struggle to see the use of ranked advances in an attacking situation where automatic arms and/or explosive ordinance were in use (I don't care what the art work has shown over the years).

On the Defensive firing lines might be applicable if fighting massed tyranids/unarmed hordes firing across clear land (think Zulu Dawn here) but again you would still prefer to be behind a bloody big fortification if you could.

Volley fire might work but again we are probably talking about at least semi-automatic weapons, why would it be necessary? Even WW1 Lee-Enfeild could put down a withering amount of fire at company level (see Mad Minute - 15 rounds a minute per man = machine gun effect).

My reasoning for this isn't just our modern perspective but if you follow the Napoleonic theme the Officers would have bought and paid for their regiment and will not want to see it (and them) squandered by clearly outmoded/dogmatic tactics. I like Sharpe as much as the next man but the idea of A bunch of Hooray Henrys driving the South-Essex into a suicide march while the 95th rifles skip through the cover/trees and do most of the job doesn't wash (and that's at a time when the rank & file tactics were valid!).

Any Colonel that would squander a IG Regiment like that and survived would find a Commissars pistol waiting for him.

As always with these thematic forces the style of uniforms are valid the tactics are not.