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Melissia wrote:Eldar Mesh is actually pretty damned good, about halfway between flak and carapace while weighing less than either (Weighs like a heavy cloth basically). Humans actually have their own mesh technology, but it's nowhere near as advanced as Eldar mesh.

I don't think that Eldar Mesh can be compared in any way shape or form to Flak armour as Eldar Mesh covers the entire body. Flak armor has gaps in coverage - unless the arguement can be made that the fatigues are part of the armour system. Eldar Mesh also includes a self contained breathing apparatus. Other than the aforementioned increased balistics resisting properties - considering that it also covers the whole body means that the average guardian will be able to avoid otherwise incapacitating (or fatal) injuries which the corresponding guardsman may suffer to unarmored areas: upper arms, thighs, sides, face etc.

Granted the 40k ruleset is not very granular in terms of weapon and armour statistics - but considering that a Guardsman's armor has a 1/3 chance of saving him from an otherwise lethal blow from primitive arms and the common human small arms of the 41st millenium - and is outright fragged by most xenos small arms - I wouldn't go so far as to say that flak is "pretty good" - IMHO, it is "adequate" at best.

keezus wrote:Flak armor has gaps in coverage

That depends on the armor style.

There is actually a flak cloak and flak trenchcoat style armor in Dark Heresy, so it CAN be given in softer material (that material typically has as slightly lower protective value, however).


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keezus wrote:Granted the 40k ruleset is not very granular in terms of weapon and armour statistics - but considering that a Guardsman's armor has a 1/3 chance of saving him from an otherwise lethal blow from primitive arms and the common human small arms of the 41st millenium - and is outright fragged by most xenos small arms - I wouldn't go so far as to say that flak is "pretty good" - IMHO, it is "adequate" at best.

Most xenos small arms can't penetrate it either. Kroot rifles can't, Ork sluggas/shootas can't, most Termagant weapons can't, and most other types of xeno weapons can't as well. The ones that CAN penetrate the armor-- Eldar, Necrons, Tau-- have extremely advanced technology.

Mind you, that doesn't mean these weapons are ineffective, I'm saying they don't penetrate the armor regularly. Even power armor can be penetrated.

Melissia wrote:It's assumed that combatants are moving around and attempting to avoid being struck in critical areas, and anyone who is dedicating themselves to close combat is using at LEAST a mono-edged weapon, if not a chainweapon or power weapon.

Moving about is good to stop damage from direct sources. Indirect sources and ricochets are equally likely to hit an unprotected area. Close-combat heavily depends on the skill of the combatants themselves.

And it's ricochets, blasts, and shrapnels that flak armor is specifically stated to protect against best.

Melissia wrote:

keezus wrote:Flak armor has gaps in coverage

That depends on the armor style.

There is actually a flak cloak and flak trenchcoat style armor in Dark Heresy, so it CAN be given in softer material (that material typically has as slightly lower protective value, however).


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keezus wrote:Granted the 40k ruleset is not very granular in terms of weapon and armour statistics - but considering that a Guardsman's armor has a 1/3 chance of saving him from an otherwise lethal blow from primitive arms and the common human small arms of the 41st millenium - and is outright fragged by most xenos small arms - I wouldn't go so far as to say that flak is "pretty good" - IMHO, it is "adequate" at best.

Most xenos small arms can't penetrate it either. Kroot rifles can't, Ork sluggas/shootas can't, most Termagant weapons can't, and most other types of xeno weapons can't as well. The ones that CAN penetrate the armor-- Eldar, Necrons, Tau-- have extremely advanced technology.

Mind you, that doesn't mean these weapons are ineffective, I'm saying they don't penetrate the armor regularly. Even power armor can be penetrated.

given that orks weapons don't actually work usually and they're basically firing low grade "mind bullets, and tyranids fire bugs out of their guns I'm going to assume here that they both have very low penetrative qualities. Maybe a high damage ability but low on the penetration. like a broadaxe as opposed to 5.56


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also have you ever actually seen a kevlar vest, it's fairly stiff, about as stiff as cadian armor looks. Granted flak uses a better fiber but i'd still put my money on it being a wire frame wrapped in a super thread. and the non rigid forms to have that frame taken out.

gendoikari87 wrote:given that orks weapons don't actually work usually and they're basically firing low grade "mind bullets

No. Ork weapons are compared to low-grade bolters in most fiction, and they fire real, actual exploding rounds.

gendoikari87 wrote:, and tyranids fire bugs out of their guns

Bugs, spikes, needles, etc.

gendoikari87 wrote:like a broadaxe as opposed to 5.56

I guarantee you that, swung by sufficiently strong creature (IE, an Ork), a battleaxe would easily cleave through most modern armor with ease.

Wasn't flak armor the thing catachan (and several other,not-cadian-environment) units get with 6+ Armor save?
That is the thing that is light (comparably) and offers minimal protection. It's also noted in The Imperial Guards Uplifting primer, that a Flak armor and a Helmet is the minimal protection you get in every imperial Guard regiment (Propaganda of course but a source nonetheless)

The cadian body armor is what i would see as more comparable to todays bodyarmor although (for the cadian version) it is more of a rigid cuirass then a flexible bodyarmor.

Cadian Carapace armor is for me the same body armor just with additional armor plates to protect the most of the exposed bodyparts (frontside), making it cumbersome to wear in longer engagements.

While it may offer equivalent protection in game terms to eldar suits it can only be worse because it's cumbersome and not covering the hole body.

in Dark Heresy

It's nice to use as inspiration but i wouldn't personally take it as source to prove something.

gendoikari87 wrote:also have you ever actually seen a kevlar vest, it's fairly stiff, about as stiff as cadian armor looks.

Yes, I have. No, it isn't.

The reason cadian armor doesn't look metallic is because it's a plastic model that has to be painted afterwards. In official artwork it tends to be drawn with a painted metallic look to it.


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Keep wrote:It's nice to use as inspiration but i wouldn't personally take it as source to prove something.

Andy Hoare says otherwise, given that this is his material I'm quoting, amongst other high-level GW writers and artists.

I guarantee you that, swung by sufficiently strong creature (IE, an Ork), a battleaxe would easily cleave through most modern armor with ease.

It doesn't need him to cleave through armor... you would still be dead because of the physical force. No bodyarmor can prevent you from getting knocked of your feets if the kinetic energy is big enough or crushing you internally

Andy Hoare says otherwise, given that this is his material I'm quoting, amongst other high-level GW writers and artists.

i just wanted to say that if something is not in Dark Heresy rules, or simplified (because it is just a game) it does not mean that it can/can not exist

No. Ork weapons are compared to low-grade bolters in most fiction, and they fire real, actual exploding rounds.

Funnily enough the ork codex says most (most not all) are actually non functional. Giving specific examples of guardsmen not being able to use them when they picked them up.

Bugs, spikes, needles, etc.

and yet the bugs are still ap 5

I guarantee you that, swung by sufficiently strong creature (IE, an Ork), a battleaxe would easily cleave through most modern armor with ease.

and if I stick an 800mm cannon down the throat of a carnifex he's not going to have a very good day.

either way Flack armor is still about the equivalent of the interceptor. or maybe dragon skin.

either way Flack armor is still about the equivalent of the interceptor. or maybe dragon skin.

well... i'll wait for a ballistic test until i believe it.

gendoikari87 wrote:Funnily enough the ork codex says most (most not all) are actually non functional.

Cite your source (Which Ork codex?) and page number then.

Rogue Trader: Into the Storm (pages 56-58, then the Mekboy section on 94-96) rather specifically states that Ork technology is incredibly sophisticated, and that the science behind their function is sound even if the Mechanicus believes that they should not work at all because of certain flaws and unreliable elements. Orks have some of the most advanced technology in 40k. Note that this is a recent piece of fluff that is worked on by GW authors such as Andy Hoare and Tim Huckleberry.

and yet the bugs are still ap 5

You don't know what you are talking about.
Fleshborer: AP5
Devourer: AP-
Spike Rifle: AP-
Spinefists: AP5

So basically two weapons which are specificaly engineered to penetrate body armor can do so-- the fleshborer designed to eat through armor in order to get to flesh to start eating it, and the spinefists launching ludicrously sharp spines for the purpose. Both of these can penetrate through metal plates as well (which is what Orks wear). Just because they are bio-engineered doesn't mean that htey aren't actually designed for the purpose.

and if I stick an 800mm cannon down the throat of a carnifex he's not going to have a very good day.

Actually there's a very good chance he'll live through it and then kill you out of rage.

Note that this is a recent piece of fluff that is worked on by GW authors such as Andy Hoare and Tim Huckleberry.

GW sanctioned novels even black library ones are not a good source for stating your sources unless you also believe marines carry multilasors arounds as their standard weapon and throwing rocks at waveserpents is a good idea because their tank commanders surf them onto the battlefield.

Yes, I have. No, it isn't.

Really? cause mine has more the feel of a black life vest. Denser and thinner but about the same.

gendoikari87 wrote:GW sanctioned novels even black library ones are not a good source for stating your sources unless you also believe marines carry multilasors arounds as their standard weapon and throwing rocks at waveserpents is a good idea because their tank commanders surf them onto the battlefield.

Dark Heresy is better than Black Library as far as both consistency within the 40k setting and internal consistency. Therefor I rank it far higher. In fact, given the large number of high-ranking GW writers, including codex writers, that work on Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and their various supplements, I would say that it is a damned good source for more in depth information than you would find in the codices.

Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:GW sanctioned novels even black library ones are not a good source for stating your sources unless you also believe marines carry multilasors arounds as their standard weapon and throwing rocks at waveserpents is a good idea because their tank commanders surf them onto the battlefield.

Dark Heresy is better than Black Library as far as both consistency within the 40k setting and internal consistency. Therefor I rank it far higher. In fact, given the large number of high-ranking GW writers, including codex writers, that work on Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and their various supplements, I would say that it is a damned good source for more in depth information than you would find in the codices.

and yet we still find multi-laser carrying marines and wave serpents being used as surf boards.

Actually there's a very good chance he'll live through it and then kill you out of rage.

Really? a Carnifex is going to survive something several times larger than a demolisher shell? Something far bigger than it's own head....

Actually, it's about as big as a carifex.

Really? cause mine has more the feel of a black life vest. Denser and thinner but about the same.

Kevlar is still flexible (you can still arch the back for example) and not solid. Every Artwork containing Cadian Bodyarmor and the made-up of the models suggests that it is solid material, not flexible at all

gendoikari87 wrote:Really? cause mine has more the feel of a black life vest. Denser and thinner but about the same.

Given that flak armor is often depicted with a painted metallic texture (IE metal that has been painted), and made of various layers of "armaplas alloys" (Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer-- Alloys, I should note, have a base metal compound and other compounds added to them, in this case likely advanced plastics) and is worn in curved plates, I would say it does not.

If its not official GW then its little better then fan fiction. If its not in a current rulebook,codex or supplement then its not current IP and not valid. That being said this argument is only a tiny bit less nerdy/sad then 40k vs starwars arguments. The 40k setting is just an excuse for us to roll gak loads of dice and push little toy soldiers about we dont need to make the hobby look any sadder by having arguments over fluff.

Keep wrote:

Really? cause mine has more the feel of a black life vest. Denser and thinner but about the same.

Kevlar is still flexible (you can still arch the back for example) and not solid. Every Artwork containing Cadian Bodyarmor and the made-up of the models suggests that it is solid material, not flexible at all

I never said it was like metal, but it does hold it shape somewhat.

gendoikari87 wrote:and yet we still find multi-laser carrying marines and wave serpents being used as surf boards.

It is possible to do both of those things in a roleplay environment, as the roleplays themselves are not canon. However, neither of those are mentioned in Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch.

Really? a Carnifex is going to survive something several times larger than a demolisher shell? Something far bigger than it's own head....

Yes.

40k is full of insanely durable creatures. Orks can suffer insanely deadly wounds (such as blowing a hole through their body, removal of all four limbs, decapitation, etc), and still be ready for battle a few days later, with a Dok really only needed to replace lost limbs or re-attach heads. And Orks are only T4.

Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Really? cause mine has more the feel of a black life vest. Denser and thinner but about the same.

Given that flak armor is often depicted with a painted metallic texture (IE metal that has been painted), and made of various layers of "armaplas alloys" (Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer-- Alloys, I should note, have a base metal compound and other compounds added to them, in this case likely advanced plastics) and is worn in curved plates, I would say it does not.

There you go, you win. also does anyone know where I can get a copy of Imperial infantry mans uplifting primer, I lost mine about a year ago when I re-imaged my computer.

Jubear wrote:If its not official GW then its little better then fan fiction. If its not in a current rulebook,codex or supplement then its not current IP and not valid. That being said this argument is only a tiny bit less nerdy/sad then 40k vs starwars arguments. The 40k setting is just an excuse for us to roll gak loads of dice and push little toy soldiers about we dont need to make the hobby look any sadder by having arguments over fluff.

If you dont' like it, get out of the thread. Yes, it's nerdy.

Well guess what? I'm a fething nerd. Deal with it.


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gendoikari87 wrote:There you go, you win. also does anyone know where I can get a copy of Imperial infantry mans uplifting primer, I lost mine about a year ago when I re-imaged my computer.

I think BL still sells its Damocles Gulf edition. Been a while since I checked though.

Ebay...

also I should note that demolisher shells are str 10, and AP 2 which is good enough to remove wounds from a fex easily, and it's at most 400mm the 800mm big bertha shells are much larger, just shy of being a meter wide and several meters long.

Cite your source.

Also yes. It would remove ONE wound from the creature. You would have to hit it at least four times in order to kill it.

If you dont' like it, get out of the thread. Yes, it's nerdy.

Well guess what? I'm a fething nerd. Deal with it.

What she said.

I have the damoclese gulf version but it doesn't have any of the weapons specs like the original did, just info on the tau.

also, just because it's an awesome photo I have to post it again.




photographic evidence is my source a demolishers cannon is about as wide as the from your foot to your knee (if guardsmen are the same hieght as us) while the 800mm goes up to about my waist.

Also if a demolisher were proportioned to the gustav guns shells the shell would stick out of the barrel. So I think its safe to say the 800mm is about str D. not that it matters as nothing in 40k is immobile enough to hit it with the railway guns.

I can tell you where the Demolisher/Vindicator/Thunderer thing came from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmtiger

Keep wrote:I can tell you where the Demolisher/Vindicator/Thunderer thing came from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmtiger

HOLY gak ON A STICK that IS a baneblades shells or at least it looks like them.

gendoikari87 wrote:photographic evidence is my source a demolishers cannon is about as wide as the from your foot

I don't see a demolisher up there.

A demolisher tank is designed for three astartes in power armor-- already massive beings in massive armor, approaching 3 meters in height-- to crew it. Not humans. Astartes can stick their bodes up the top hatch, including their massive shoulders and shoulder plates, to man the pintle mount. The model is nowhere near scaled properly.

your thinking vindicator, DEMOLISHERS are a leman russ variant. If the 800mm shell were to be scaled down to 28mm scale even heroic it would be as long as most IG tanks are wide. Even the shorter AP shell would be about 2 inches long.

also lookie