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gendoikari87 wrote:your thinking vindicator, DEMOLISHERS are a leman russ variant. If the 800mm shell were to be scaled down to 28mm scale even heroic it would be as long as most IG tanks are wide.

No it wouldn't, because heroic scale isn't at all to scale.

I'm certain if it's an LR variant there's an IA entry on it that will give the info you want.

gendoikari87 wrote:also lookie

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/bbtankshells.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Sturmtiger_frontal.jpg/300px-Sturmtiger_frontal.jpg

Which is a nice coincidence, but doesn't matter.

A demolisher tank is designed for three astartes in power armor

Two astartes says forgeworld (and it makes sense, because the ammo has to be loaded by a mechanism anyway, then you need a commander/gunner and a driver). Except you add pintle mounted stuff, which can also be controlled by the driver, supported by augurs (?). And it makes perfectly sense if they try to reduce crew as far as possible, Marines are just to valuable to man pintle mounted poopguns or load ammo into a gun

you know I'd bet this would kill anything in the 40k universe. Titans, Space marines, Trygons, Heirophants if you hit them right Pretty much anything that's NOT a true godlike being

They do indeed still sell the Damocles Gulf Edition....I never had an original though, so I don't know how it compares.

IvanTih wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:*snips*

No,the guardsmen are equiped like that because of the logistics(Warp) and because the problem of arming trillons of soldiers(Hive Worlds and there's 32k+ of them).

You say that as if the High Lords of Terra aren't paranoid of insurrection; you say that as if choices can't have multiple rationals. Besides that I did say "to a degree" and I was saying that its not as much a matter of how they equip every guardsmen, as it is about which planets they trust with more Storm Troopers and Storm Trooper equivalent units. That the Imperium could probably equip more units like that, then they do; one reason they don't is logistics another is that too often planets go rogue and you don't want someone you didn't trust running around with way more storm troopers to your average guard. I'm not saying this is how it is, just that its part of my hypothesis that guardsmen are equipped to be best suited to fighting other humans.

gendoikari87 wrote:you know I'd bet this would kill anything in the 40k universe. Titans, Space marines, Trygons, Heirophants if you hit them right Pretty much anything that's NOT a true godlike being

One of the guys who designed the nice explosive part on the end is my boss. He was telling me they also developed a version of the warhead to fit on a mortar. It was kept quiet because it was intended as a weapon of last resort, where if your position was being overrun and there was no way out you could launch it as a suicide move to take as many of them out with you. With the Crockett and the mortar the simple danger of it is even at maximum range you were still in the area of effect.

I'm taking it, your munitions job is for the high explosive kind? Also tell your boss I want to have his babies. jk jk

but yeah, both versions blast radius exceeds the maximum range. it really is something of a last ditch weapon, but one that can see swaths of the enemy destroyed.

anybody know if annies blast radius exceeded it's range?

gendoikari87 wrote:anybody know if annies blast radius exceeded it's range?

It didn't, in that you wouldnt be killed directly by the blast, however you were still exposed to a rediculues level of radiation.

The Imperium also has various forms of nuclear weapons, easily more than enough to wipe Earth clean of humanity and leave it a poisoned wasteland for longer than it needs to to destroy the survivors.

Melissia wrote:The Imperium also has various forms of nuclear weapons, easily more than enough to wipe Earth clean of humanity and leave it a poisoned wasteland for longer than it needs to to destroy the survivors.

yes, we know, they also have voodoo bombs.

Catyrpelius wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:anybody know if annies blast radius exceeded it's range?

It didn't, in that you wouldnt be killed directly by the blast, however you were still exposed to a rediculues level of radiation.

Not necessarily true. There would be a lot of fallout, yes, thanks to the ridiculously inefficient warhead design that they used, but the direct radiation from the device itself would be spent far away from the cannon.

The worst you'd have to worry about if you were manning the gun would be the flash, and maybe the heat. You wouldn't have to worry about the fireball or blast at all.

Remember, even the biggest nukes anyone has in service today is only 20 megatons, with that you'll be dead if you're within 7.5 km, severely burned up to 30 km away, and will get a nasty dose of direct radiation 5 km away.But that's literally the biggest bomb anyone has....Atomic Annie would have fired a 15 KILOton shell. With that, you're dead within a mere 684 meters, and severely burned up to 2 km away, and get 500 rems of radiation a mere 1.4 km away.

Nukes are scary, but you have to remember they have limits.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Imperium also has various forms of nuclear weapons, easily more than enough to wipe Earth clean of humanity and leave it a poisoned wasteland for longer than it needs to to destroy the survivors.

yes, we know, they also have voodoo bombs.

No, but they do have psyk-out warheads, which lliterally explode and attack the victims' minds.

Andy Hoare says otherwise, given that this is his material I'm quoting, amongst other high-level GW writers and artists.

Well Andy Hoare fails when he writes about space combat,he give hundreds of kilometres(range of weapons),when every other source gives tens of thousand kilometres or more.


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Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Imperium also has various forms of nuclear weapons, easily more than enough to wipe Earth clean of humanity and leave it a poisoned wasteland for longer than it needs to to destroy the survivors.

yes, we know, they also have voodoo bombs.

No, but they do have psyk-out warheads, which lliterally explode and attack the victims' minds.

Hellfire torpedoes,560 gigatons(official calc).Enough said.


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aka_mythos wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:*snips*

No,the guardsmen are equiped like that because of the logistics(Warp) and because the problem of arming trillons of soldiers(Hive Worlds and there's 32k+ of them).

You say that as if the High Lords of Terra aren't paranoid of insurrection; you say that as if choices can't have multiple rationals. Besides that I did say "to a degree" and I was saying that its not as much a matter of how they equip every guardsmen, as it is about which planets they trust with more Storm Troopers and Storm Trooper equivalent units. That the Imperium could probably equip more units like that, then they do; one reason they don't is logistics another is that too often planets go rogue and you don't want someone you didn't trust running around with way more storm troopers to your average guard. I'm not saying this is how it is, just that its part of my hypothesis that guardsmen are equipped to be best suited to fighting other humans.

Also that is part of the reasons why AdMech are dicks,because of the Chaos,IoM builds things Chaos turns against them.

gendoikari87 wrote:you know I'd bet this would kill anything in the 40k universe. Titans, Space marines, Trygons, Heirophants if you hit them right Pretty much anything that's NOT a true godlike being

Wow,you really haven't read any source on titan's firepower.

Better yet, multi-stage cyclonic torpedoes, enough to rip a planet apart from the inside

No that they'd ever use either of those against an earth-type planet. Too useful for aggriculture.

@Melissia: Flak seems to be a catch all, since CATACHANS are also equipped with flak - and jungle fighter flak armor CLEARLY has less coverage than Cadian flak unless someone wants to claim that the bare arms of the 41st millenium have better ballistics resisting properties than modern bare arms. To claim that wearing flak provides a high degree of protection without acknowledging that the different "patterns" of flak offer varying degrees of coverage constitutes a dishonest arguement - as Catachan flak is clearly less efficient than the Cadian pattern.

Melissia wrote:Better yet, multi-stage cyclonic torpedoes, enough to rip a planet apart from the inside


No that they'd ever use either of those against an earth-type planet. Too useful for aggriculture.

Unfortunately those torpeoes work on chain reaction(and they can carry a variety of payloads),well the Nemesis says that Vengeful Spirit had warstrikes capable of atomising continets in single shots and energy cannon capable of boiling oceans(and those weapons were restrain when used against one planet,otherwise they would destroy it totally with cyclonic torpedoes).

Actually mellissa by Voodoo I was talking about Vortex warheads. Voodoo as in scientific mumbo jumbo magic.

Wow,you really haven't read any source on titan's firepower.

so? a 20 ton warhead on the cockpit is still going to kill you, if the blast doesn't the intense heat will, and if that doesn't the extreme radition will, and a void shiled might be able to block the blast, I have no doubt on this, but the heat, probably not, and the extreme radiation, that's a joke, for it to block either the shield would have to be opaque meaning you can't see out.

gendoikari87 wrote:Actually mellissa by Voodoo I was talking about Vortex warheads. Voodoo as in scientific mumbo jumbo magic.

Wow,you really haven't read any source on titan's firepower.

so? a 20 ton warhead on the cockpit is still going to kill you, if the blast doesn't the intense heat will, and if that doesn't the extreme radition will, and a void shiled might be able to block the blast, I have no doubt on this, but the heat, probably not, and the extreme radiation, that's a joke, for it to block either the shield would have to be opaque meaning you can't see out.

C'mon Titans have resisted stronger things than nuclear warhead with 20 ton yield.

Did they also have the radiation behind them? force of the blast doesnt' matter much when you get hit with 2000 rems of radiation. The shields are at least translucent to visible light so that the titans can see out, so they are at least translucent to higher wavelengths of light, like x-rays and gamma rays. and those will destroy pretty much anything gamma rays even penetrate solid steel.

gendoikari87 wrote:Did they also have the radiation behind them? force of the blast doesnt' matter much when you get hit with 2000 rems of radiation.

Void shields.

IvanTih wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Did they also have the radiation behind them? force of the blast doesnt' matter much when you get hit with 2000 rems of radiation.

Void shields.

again Void shields won't protect you from radiation, they are at least translucent to visible light and there fore at least translucent to x-rays and gamma rays. and gamma rays will pretty much go through anythig you can think of.

gendoikari87 wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Did they also have the radiation behind them? force of the blast doesnt' matter much when you get hit with 2000 rems of radiation.

Void shields.

again Void shields won't protect you from radiation, they are at least translucent to visible light and there fore at least translucent to x-rays and gamma rays. and gamma rays will pretty much go through anythig you can think of.

Yes they will(points to Space ships).

No they won't, points to physics books. and anyone who says otherwise wheather they write fluff or not is a fething [Redacted]. GW is wrong on this account or those aren't actually lasers. And I have my suspcions they aren't. but rather a form of plasma weapon.

oh and lasers don't have recoil.

IvanTih wrote:Unfortunately those torpeoes work on chain reaction(and they can carry a variety of payloads),well the Nemesis says that Vengeful Spirit had warstrikes capable of atomising continets in single shots and energy cannon capable of boiling oceans(and those weapons were restrain when used against one planet,otherwise they would destroy it totally with cyclonic torpedoes).

Why the hell are we talking about this Gak again. Clearly, these weapons have no modern analogue. Your oft quoted source Connor has already conceeded that he considers this description to be outside the normal range of power by a huge magnitude - even for 40k - being that they single to double digit petaton range*. Can we stay on topic and leave out weapons with energy requirements outstripping the energy resources of the Earth??!?

Edit 2: Considering that void shields are voodoo technology with no modern analogue (meant to defeat equally vodoo high tech super guns), and given that all descriptions of their action suggest that they ignore the laws of physics - given the original scope of this thread, I don't see how they enter into the equation.

*Ref: Size of Europe ~ 10x10^7 square km. Assuming vaporization down to 100m - that's 10x10^6 cubic km or 10x10^15 cubic meters.
Per the handy Stardestroyer.net asteroid destruction calculator - to vaporize that much rock, we're looking at between 3-14 petaton yield.

gendoikari87 wrote:No they won't, points to physics books. and anyone who says otherwise wheather they write fluff or not is a fething ignorant tool. GW is wrong on this account or those aren't actually lasers. And I have my suspcions they aren't. but rather a form of plasma weapon.

oh and lasers don't have recoil.

Warhammer 40k bashes physics with Warp.
I point to ships in space who need Void shields(besides space is full of radiation) to protect them when they fight very close to a star(we even have an example from Eisenhorn when a civilian clipper basically stands in sun's corona for over 70 hours with no ill effects).
Also Andy Chamber has stated that lances are not laser weapons.I'll present the quote later.




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keezus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Unfortunately those torpeoes work on chain reaction(and they can carry a variety of payloads),well the Nemesis says that Vengeful Spirit had warstrikes capable of atomising continets in single shots and energy cannon capable of boiling oceans(and those weapons were restrain when used against one planet,otherwise they would destroy it totally with cyclonic torpedoes).

Why the hell are we talking about this Gak again. Clearly, these weapons have no modern analogue. Your oft quoted source Connor has already conceeded that he considers this description to be outside the normal range of power by a huge magnitude - even for 40k - being that they single to double digit petaton range*. Can we stay on topic and leave out weapons with energy requirements outstripping the energy resources of the Earth??!?

Edit 2: Considering that void shields are voodoo technology with no modern analogue (meant to defeat equally vodoo high tech super guns), and given that all descriptions of their action suggest that they ignore the laws of physics - given the original scope of this thread, I don't see how they enter into the equation.

*Ref: Size of Europe ~ 10x10^7 square km. Assuming vaporization down to 100m - that's 10x10^6 cubic km or 10x10^15 cubic meters.
Per the handy Stardestroyer.net asteroid destruction calculator - to vaporize that much rock, we're looking at between 3-14 petaton yield.

That was sustained firepower range.Broadsides are to my opinion are single to double digit teratons.


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Also I point to Skopios Incident where Imperial Navy vaporises a large planetoid.
I'll try to find the quote.
I don't use his Nova cannon calc anymore.

Warhammer 40k bashes physics with Warp.
I point to ships in space who need Void shields(besides space is full of radiation) to protect them when they fight very close to a star(we even have an example from Eisenhorn when a civilian clipper basically stands in sun's corona for over 70 hours with no ill effects).
Also Andy Chamber has stated that lances are not laser weapons.I'll present the quote later.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:that your sources don't mention this weakness does not proove your point

I don't need to prove my point. I just need to watch as you fail to prove yours.

The onus is on you to prove that the supposed weakness exists.

Hold on Melissa your argument on Page 1 of this thread, is the ultimate stupid Argument for Religion over Science.

"Darwin is wrong, evolution is flawed" Religious man
"Why, on what rational basis?" Scientist
"Because the Planet is only 6,000 years old" Religious man
"What do you mean? What about Carbon Dating? Or Fossils ?" Scientist
"Hey man, its upto you to disprove me, I take no responsibility for my own claims" Religious man

Anyway back to the thread, I think that Lasguns are interesting item. Powerpacks that can be recharged in an emergency by putting them in fire!
I have always thought that Heavy Bolters were a little ridiulous if a normal bolter is 19mm (give or take!) then HB shells must be 40mm or larger plus given the rate of fire a Belt of Heavy Bolter rounds would have to be massive to give even a short burst. A weight of the Ammo would be ridiculous...


Oh this is an Anti personnel round (120mm) its for clearing infantry off a friendly tank without damaging it, I want this in W40K especially against 'nids!

IvanTih wrote:That was sustained firepower range.Broadsides are to my opinion are single to double digit teratons.

"Unfortunately those torpeoes work on chain reaction(and they can carry a variety of payloads),well the Nemesis says that Vengeful Spirit had warstrikes capable of atomising continets in single shots and energy cannon capable of boiling oceans(and those weapons were restrain when used against one planet,otherwise they would destroy it totally with cyclonic torpedoes)." -your quote - emphasis mine.



How is a single shot considered sustained firepower? Assuming TT level "broadsides", that's 1000+ broadsides! That hardly qualifies as a single strike - unless you are suggesting that the Vengeful Spirit crapped out a 1000x power single super broadside. Anyhow - I don't see how this has any bearing on the original topic.

keezus wrote:

IvanTih wrote:That was sustained firepower range.Broadsides are to my opinion are single to double digit teratons.

"Unfortunately those torpeoes work on chain reaction(and they can carry a variety of payloads),well the Nemesis says that Vengeful Spirit had warstrikes capable of atomising continets in single shots and energy cannon capable of boiling oceans(and those weapons were restrain when used against one planet,otherwise they would destroy it totally with cyclonic torpedoes)." -your quote - emphasis mine.



How is a single shot considered sustained firepower? Assuming TT level "broadsides", that's 1000+ broadsides! That hardly qualifies as a single strike - unless you are suggesting that the Vengeful Spirit crapped out a 1000x power single super broadside. Anyhow - I don't see how this has any bearing on the original topic.

I wasn't reffering to Cyclonc torpedoes,but to combined output of all weapons on the broadside(weapon batteries,lances,non cyclonic torpedoes ).
Sustained firepower or salvo and it wasn't done by one ship.

I think Melissia is going for a Occam's Razor explanation. Basically, we have two possibilities: 1) Bolters efficiencey decreases at close range, or 2) Bolters are equally effective throughout their entire range.

Option 2 is the less complicated explanation, as it has fewer things to prove. As such, we go with 2 until someone can definitively prove 1.

This argument does not work for religion vs. science, as in order for the '6,000 years' argument to work, the religious person will have to explain how his mechanism works....that adds more complication to his theory, and since the scientist has his mechanism for establishing the date of the Earth well established, we default to that until the religious person can provide proof for his.

So basically, by failing to prove his point, gendokari helped to support Melissia's

Catyrpelius wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:anybody know if annies blast radius exceeded it's range?

It didn't, in that you wouldnt be killed directly by the blast, however you were still exposed to a rediculues level of radiation.

It had a 20 mile range, though was only accurate at ranges less than 10 miles... but its a nuke so "close" is good enough. The warhead was of the same number of kilotons as the Hiroshima bomb, Littleboy, 15kT with a blast radius of 1.6km or 1 mile and area of effect of a 2 mile radius. As for radiation and fallout, the operators were trained to take particular care in considering windage.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Warhammer 40k bashes physics with Warp.
I point to ships in space who need Void shields(besides space is full of radiation) to protect them when they fight very close to a star(we even have an example from Eisenhorn when a civilian clipper basically stands in sun's corona for over 70 hours with no ill effects).
Also Andy Chamber has stated that lances are not laser weapons.I'll present the quote later.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

Ships in the 40k universe would need some means of protection against radiation and I'm rather doubtful that such protection could be purely a matter of structural design, particularly given the expected service life of Imperial ships. It is reasonable that even if Void shields are not protecting against radiation, some other form of shielding is.

I tend to believe a void shield or atleast something utilizing the same technology does protect from radiation. The fluff only says that void fields work by displacing the effect of an attack into the warp. Given the amounts of different kinetic, ballistic, and energy weapons that the sheilds are expected to hold up to they should be able to deal with some degree of radiation.

Lances are suppose to be a plasma based weapon. Plasma gives off significant electromagnetic radiation. If Void shields can defend against those they should be able to block radiation... unless there is some specific explanation saying otherwise.