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gendoikari87 wrote:No they won't, points to physics books

So physics books defines what a void shield is? Oh wait no they don't.

The very name of the shields-- "void" shields-- indicates this much, because "void" is the term used for space in 40k (for example, someone born on a space ship / space station is called "void-born"). Space Ships need to be protected against radiation amongst other things, and given the harmful effects of warp-based travel, void-shields would need to be extremely strong (along with their gellar fields) to ensure no severe damage to the ship upon entry to that forsaken realm. What quack physics book do you have that discusses this fictional energy field?

IvanTih wrote:I wasn't reffering to Cyclonc torpedoes,but to combined output of all weapons on the broadside(weapon batteries,lances,non cyclonic torpedoes ).
Sustained firepower or salvo and it wasn't done by one ship.

"Unfortunately those torpeoes work on chain reaction(and they can carry a variety of payloads),well the Nemesis says that Vengeful Spirit had warstrikes capable of atomising continets in single shots and energy cannon capable of boiling oceans(and those weapons were restrain when used against one planet,otherwise they would destroy it totally with cyclonic torpedoes)." -your quote - emphasis mine.



At no time was I refering to Cyclonic Torpedoes. If it was your intent for your original statement to convey that "a fleet of ships performing a sustained bombardment can eventually atomise a continent", I think that you should be a bit more clear in your wording.


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Melissia wrote:The very name of the shields-- "void" shields-- indicates this much, because "void" is the term used for space in 40k (for example, someone born on a space ship / space station is called "void-born"). Space Ships need to be protected against radiation amongst other things, and given the harmful effects of warp-based travel, void-shields would need to be extremely strong (along with their gellar fields) to ensure no severe damage to the ship upon entry to that forsaken realm. What quack physics book do you have that discusses this fictional energy field?

Considering that GW never fully explains the extent of the Void shield's capabilities, what you are asking is akin to forcing a definitive proof regarding whether God can create a stone so heavy that even he can't lift, given that His powers are not explicitly defined, don't conform to the laws of nature and are stated to be limitless.

IIRC, supposedly a single broadside bombardment of a battleship class vessel could destroy a small continent. But these are massive and rare vehicles, and it's more efficient to use many small vehicles I would think.


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keezus wrote:Considering that GW never fully explains the extent of the Void shield's capabilities, what you are asking is akin to forcing a definitive proof regarding whether God can create a stone so heavy that even he can't lift

No, this is a respectable debate, not theology.

Insert someone taking this too seriously.

Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:No they won't, points to physics books

So physics books defines what a void shield is? Oh wait no they don't.

The very name of the shields-- "void" shields-- indicates this much, because "void" is the term used for space in 40k (for example, someone born on a space ship / space station is called "void-born"). Space Ships need to be protected against radiation amongst other things, and given the harmful effects of warp-based travel, void-shields would need to be extremely strong (along with their gellar fields) to ensure no severe damage to the ship upon entry to that forsaken realm. What quack physics book do you have that discusses this fictional energy field?

Look i'm going to explain this slowly.

Visible light, X-rays, and Gamma rays (the last two of which are radiation) are all the same thing with different energies.

Visible light<X-rays><Gamma Rays

If something is transparant to one wavelength of light it is to all shorter wavelengths.

Wavelengths and energy of the photon are inversely proportional

Void shilds are transparant to visible light

therefore void shields don't block out radiation. If anything does it's what the ships are made from. Possibly the adamantium or a lead lining. >


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If Void shields can defend against those they should be able to block radiation... unless there is some specific explanation saying otherwise.

There is a HUGE difference between defending against Plasma, and Radiation. A simple Electric field will repel Plasma, while the photon is not charged, and will remain unaffected by the field. You're basically talking about tomatos and iguanas here... two completely different things, which require completely different forms of protection.

[edit, off-topic]

ChrisWWII wrote:I think Melissia is going for a Occam's Razor explanation. Basically, we have two possibilities: 1) Bolters efficiencey decreases at close range, or 2) Bolters are equally effective throughout their entire range.

Option 2 is the less complicated explanation, as it has fewer things to prove. As such, we go with 2 until someone can definitively prove 1.

http://www.deathwind.com/history.htm

Bolters are said to have a small explosive charge that kicks them out of their barrel. Otherwise they wouldn't make any sound when firing except a silent klick of the hammer and a silent "whoosh" Therefore it already has a base velocity which constantly grows until the fuel is out, then it behaves like an ordinary bullet i suppose. The system does not work like a TOW missile, where the initial charge lobs the missile out of the launchtube, then it falls down a little (shooter has to be aware of that) and the main engine starts. The engine starts immediately together with the small explosion.
And it's not like that the thing takes 7s to reach 100m/s. It's also pretty clever as the gyrojet munition had problems if the rocketbullet somehow got stuck in the barrel, it just hisses it's entire fuel into oblivion and remains in the barrel.

The main strength of the bolt ammunition is not because of their high velocity but because of their explosive i think. If the bullet really was not fast enough at close range to have noticeable velocity, you would still have the explosive (a 20mm projectile...

so it is not 1 or 2 ... it is 3) effective at close range but even more effective at long range (until fuel runs out) =P

In regard of Heavy bolters - if i would make them i think the bullet would be only slightly large then 20mm bolter round, perhaps 25mm.

Void shilds are transparant to visible light

And here we are, living... yet the sun bombs us everyday with death in form of xrays ... not sure where you live but i can see the sun from time to time where i live.

Melissia wrote:

keezus wrote:Considering that GW never fully explains the extent of the Void shield's capabilities, what you are asking is akin to forcing a definitive proof regarding whether God can create a stone so heavy that even he can't lift

No, this is a respectable debate, not theology.

You are asking Gendoikari87 to prove that the void shield admits radiation. He tries despite the fact that void shields is a generally un-defined fictional technolgy - where its creators never bothered to state the limits of its performance AND its action relies on a process KNOWN to not follow the laws of our universe. His position is impossible as all it takes to rebutt is: Nuh-uh... that's not how it works - eventually falling back on the "doesn't follow the laws of our universe" arguement. I don't see how the demanding a void shield proof is any different from asking that the God vs. stone be resolved.

Keep wrote:[snip]so it is not 1 or 2 ... it is 3) effective at close range but even more effective at long range (until fuel runs out) =P

Nope, it requires penetration to allow the explosive aspect to do the most damage-- it explodes AFTER penetration, not before.


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keezus wrote:You are asking Gendoikari87 to prove that the void shield admits radiation. He tries despite the fact that void shields is a generally un-defined fictional technolgy - where its creators never bothered to state the limits of its performance AND its action relies on a process KNOWN to not follow the laws of our universe.

Read the black text I put into the post you quoted.

Melissia wrote:

Keep wrote:[snip]so it is not 1 or 2 ... it is 3) effective at close range but even more effective at long range (until fuel runs out) =P

Nope, it requires penetration to allow the explosive aspect to do the most damage-- it explodes AFTER penetration, not before.

So what? if it bounces of something it still explodes. It just has a delay. That doesn't stop it from doing serious damage to a human. I don't want to be a couple of cm next to a 20mm grenade if it explodes...

Keep wrote:http://www.deathwind.com/history.htm

Bolters aren't gyrojet weapons. They have some aspects that are similar, but they are still not gyrojet weapons.


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Keep wrote:stop it from doing serious damage to a human. I don't want to be a couple of cm next to a 20mm grenade if it explodes...

Actually, yes, it would. Flak armor is specifically designed to protect against shrapnel and explosive damage. So if a bolter shell didn't penetrate a guardsman's flak armor it'd have its effectiveness GREATLY reduced.

keezus wrote:@Melissia: Flak seems to be a catch all, since CATACHANS are also equipped with flak - and jungle fighter flak armor CLEARLY has less coverage than Cadian flak unless someone wants to claim that the bare arms of the 41st millenium have better ballistics resisting properties than modern bare arms. To claim that wearing flak provides a high degree of protection without acknowledging that the different "patterns" of flak offer varying degrees of coverage constitutes a dishonest arguement - as Catachan flak is clearly less efficient than the Cadian pattern.

Fluff wise, there's a reason that my Catachan Sergeants and officers are the ones who have closed flak vests. They live long enough to be promoted.

Melissia wrote:Read the black text I put into the post you quoted.

Maybe I lack reading comprehension. The above provides a relevant counterpoint regarding demands for proofs of the unprovable... How?

In Dark Heresy, attempting to wear Catachan style flak armor has a lower level of protective value, and protects less of the body. Fun times and all that.

Melissia wrote:

Keep wrote:stop it from doing serious damage to a human. I don't want to be a couple of cm next to a 20mm grenade if it explodes...

Actually, yes, it would. Flak armor is specifically designed to protect against shrapnel and explosive damage. So if a bolter shell didn't penetrate a guardsman's flak armor it'd have its effectiveness GREATLY reduced.

That is a poor arguement as bolters are known to be able to penetrate power armor (ref: Any space marine vs. traitor marine fight). If bolt shells can penetrate power armor, flak armor isn't going to reduce the kinetic force enough to prevent the round from shredding the human body behind - even without the explosive charge.

keezus wrote:Maybe I lack reading comprehension. The above provides a relevant counterpoint regarding demands for proofs of the unprovable... How?

Because I'm not taking the argument seriously enough to care.

Actually, yes, it would. Flak armor is specifically designed to protect against shrapnel and explosive damage. So if a bolter shell didn't penetrate a guardsman's flak armor it'd have its effectiveness GREATLY reduced.

You are talking of cadian "flak armor" to start with. Second - if you get hit by a bullet and are lucky so it does not penetrate your armor there is still the kinetic energy the thing has. It's like the kick of a donkey or even worse (20mm will be even worse). If your internal organs are not hurt by that (rib cage broken, etc) you are really lucky.
Now you have an explosion. Right at your chest area. Guard troopers have chest armor and Helmets. They lack face protection, throat protection, full arm protection, leg protection, groin protection,etc. The shrapnells can get everywhere. The heat does get everywhere that is not chest-plate.
Just because the rulebook says 5+ saving throw that does not mean his clothes are as tough as his chestplate in "real" terms.

There is no way a common bodyarmor worn without help of external skeleton or something like that can protect you against the devestating impact of a 20mm cannon. I served in a Wiesel 1 MK&TOW unit, believe me, you don't want to be on the recieving end.

keezus wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Keep wrote:stop it from doing serious damage to a human. I don't want to be a couple of cm next to a 20mm grenade if it explodes...

Actually, yes, it would. Flak armor is specifically designed to protect against shrapnel and explosive damage. So if a bolter shell didn't penetrate a guardsman's flak armor it'd have its effectiveness GREATLY reduced.

That is a poor arguement as bolters are known to be able to penetrate power armor (ref: Any space marine vs. traitor marine fight). If bolt shells can penetrate power armor, flak armor isn't going to reduce the kinetic force enough to prevent the round from shredding the human body behind - even without the explosive charge.

Quit trying to weasel-word your way out of the question.

You stated that the bolter shell would do damage regardless of if it penetrated, to which I pointed out a fact about flak armor-- that it is more resistant to blasts and shrapnel. Said resistance is not represented in tabletop because of rules complexity issues, but it's still there. In fact, against grenades, flak armor is about as good as light carapace armor. If a bolter shell did not penetrate, it would do very little damage to a guardsman in flak armor because the flak armor is designed specifically to absorb the blasts and shrapnel that commonly takes out soldiers in a warzone.

But the fact that it does penetrate BEFORE exploding means that it impacts with the kinetic force and general shape to reliably (~100% of the time) get through body armor that is quite a bit better than modern body armor. Bolter shells have very good penetrative qualities, which is the very reason that they are able to do such high damage in the first place-- by penetrating through armor and flesh, and exploding within a target. Simply exploding outside the target would allow the armor to protect the wearer far better.


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Keep wrote:You are talking of cadian "flak armor" to start with.

No.

I am talking about flak armor. There are aesthetic variations of flak armor and variations depending on how light/heavy it is, but all flak armor have these qualities.

Just because it was designed to protect against shrapnel does not mean you are invulnerable to it. Shrapnell will still be able to penetrate, depending on size, kenetic energy and shape and a lot of other stuff.
Kevlar vests are also designed to protect against shrapnel.
Yet it won't stop the fragments of an artillery shell that explodes next to you 2m away. Nor does it stop the fragments you get into your legs and arms.

I think you have a false impression of body armor in general. It does protect vital organs to have the chance to survive something that would be lethal otherwise. It does not mean you can just shrug it of. You are still hurt (propably serious) if it hits you hard enough. And you may not be able to continue fighting with that injury for a certain period of time or even die without beeing 'penetrated' by the projectile

Bolters aren't gyrojet weapons. They have some aspects that are similar, but they are still not gyrojet weapons.

gyrojet stands for Bullets that are not accellerated by an explosive charge but by continuous burning of some sort of fuel. Like a rocket.

If it is not a combination of gyrojet (rocket) and conventional bullet, what is it then in your opinion?

No, it can't, but it can protect enough to allow the wearer of the armor to get back into the fight after recovering from the impact, or to simply not die from it and instead have a far more minor wound, more often than not. Actually a bolter's explosive nature is fairly small, much less than a grenade to be sure.

Because that's just how armor works in 40k. The tabletop's armor saves and AP values are abstract, but t

"Gyrojet" is a family of weapons that use gyroscopically stabilized rockets as ammunition.

And the fact that it is not a pure rocket is why it is not a gyrojet weapon.

Keep:

1) No, it doesn't mean 'if it doesn't pen the flak armor, yay the Guardsman is unwounded' it means. 'Oh good, the Guardsman has a slightly less chance of dying when it explodes.' There is a difference, you've created a strawman here, what you accuse Melissia of saying was never actually posted.

2) It's a combination of the two. Exactly. That means it's not a gyrojet, it's something else.

Melissia wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keep wrote:You are talking of cadian "flak armor" to start with.

No.
I am talking about flak armor. There are aesthetic variations of flak armor and variations depending on how light/heavy it is, but all flak armor have these qualities.

All flak armor have the quality to offer a better protection then human skin, yeah. If the armor is light and flexible (catachan flak armor) it can't protect as good as a heavy and rigid cadian body armor.
Why do you think soldiers have a solid plate in their kevlar armor (or multiple in case of dragonskin)? Because it distributes the kinetic energy of the small bullet to a larger area. A flexible armor can't do that to the same degree. Unless they are megasupernanoparticle, hardening upon impact. Which would be something eldar could have, but not simple imperial guard that can't build a radio that is smaller then a backpack to be able to comunicate with their commander 5km away.
Imperial Guard is not Hightech. At least not the standard Equipment the common foot slogger gets. And that is the one who takes the bullets after all.

According to Gaunt's Ghosts fluff, those big backpack vox casters? Those are for global communications, and calling up to orbiting ships. DEFINITELY not just a standard radio. They have micro beads for that.

Additionally, can you truly grasp what a technological marvel the lasgun is? A cheap, easy to repair, extremely reliable weapon that can be reloadded by the sun? How is that 'low tech'?

It's entirerly possible that Imperial Guard fatigues do include some kind of hardening feature to better deflect shrapnel and other such things. You seem to be under the impression that the IG is just a modern/WWII army put in the 41st millenium....they're not. The technology given the most basic trooper is more advanced than anything we have today.

The technology given the most basic trooper is more advanced than anything we have today.

Yes if we compare it with today, but not compared with the technology of other races. (Orks aside)

And if we compare it with other races of 40k, they are just about that, a WWII army put in 41st millenium.
I mean, they even still have pintle mounted weapons that have to be manned by the commander (!) of a tank and exposes him to simple bullet fire. Not a remote controlled weaponstation...

The simple imperial guardsman has his rifle, a simple (in comparison) bodyarmor, a helmet, field equipment to survive in the field, entrenching tool. No Nightvision, no scanner, no GPS display, no Infrared vision (or other detection methods that may be possible in 40k), no devices that support him to transport his heavy equipment

Keep wrote:

Void shilds are transparant to visible light

And here we are, living... yet the sun bombs us everyday with death in form of xrays ... not sure where you live but i can see the sun from time to time where i live.

no ozone protects us from ULTRAVIOLET radiation, and it is still partially transparent to that. And it's not because it's reflecting it it's because it's reacting with it.


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Additionally, can you truly grasp what a technological marvel the lasgun is? A cheap, easy to repair, extremely reliable weapon that can be reloadded by the sun? How is that 'low tech'?

Even though the standard lasgun is about a powerful and has a much lower penetrative qualtiy, than a 5.56, I'd still rather have it on a long infitration mission behind enemy lines. It truely is a marvel for what it is, a no supply train weapon. It's precisely what the guard need and want.


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It's entirerly possible that Imperial Guard fatigues do include some kind of hardening feature to better deflect shrapnel and other such things. You seem to be under the impression that the IG is just a modern/WWII army put in the 41st millenium....they're not. The technology given the most basic trooper is more advanced than anything we have today.

.... shotguns you mean, the AA-12 which I'd gather will soon be the standard shotgun in most militaries is basically a ripper gun. This is 40k, some tech is super advanced while some is medival at best. THe guard are a mix of medival, modern and high technologies.

gendoikari87 wrote:.... shotguns you mean, the AA-12 which I'd gather will soon be the standard shotgun in most militaries is basically a ripper gun. This is 40k, some tech is super advanced while some is medival at best. THe guard are a mix of medival, modern and high technologies.

The ripper gun atleast in older fluff was described as a full auto shotgun... thus allowing ogryn to not have the best aim.

Keep wrote:Just because it was designed to protect against shrapnel does not mean you are invulnerable to it. Shrapnell will still be able to penetrate, depending on size, kenetic energy and shape and a lot of other stuff.
Kevlar vests are also designed to protect against shrapnel.
Yet it won't stop the fragments of an artillery shell that explodes next to you 2m away. Nor does it stop the fragments you get into your legs and arms.

I would rather argue blunt force trauma... sometime even when body armor stops penetration, the overall concussive force is still lethal, as even the distributed force localized in the wrong given area can cause bruising of internal organs. Such bruising can occaisionally be lethal. So while the shrapnel is only embedded in armor the shockwave and force that was driving that can be lethal as well. Lethal pressure waves are what make high explosives so much more dangerous to infantry than just fragmentation.

Melissia wrote:IIRC, supposedly a single broadside bombardment of a battleship class vessel could destroy a small continent. But these are massive and rare vehicles, and it's more efficient to use many small vehicles I would think.


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keezus wrote:Considering that GW never fully explains the extent of the Void shield's capabilities, what you are asking is akin to forcing a definitive proof regarding whether God can create a stone so heavy that even he can't lift

No, this is a respectable debate, not theology.

Insert someone taking this too seriously.

They're not so rare,3rd edition states millions of ships and some sources tell us 1 warship in 10 is warship so you get bare minimum of 200,000.
@keezus
Ever heard of Skopios incident,Imperial Navy shatters a large planetoid which has thin atmosphere.Of course that is undefined over what timeframe they do it.
As for the firepower I meant that ships bombarding a planet will kill all life an event which requires at least gigatons to teratons.

@Melissia: re: bolters vs. flak armour - I'm not arguing against the fact that flak armour protects against blasts - only that using a bolter to illustrate this doesn't provide the best example. Ignoring the kinetic damage for now - it is never clearly stated in the rulebooks by what mechanism the explosive charge is triggered - be it a contact trigger, proximity sensor or a delay timer of some sort. Either way, as standard bolt shells are not known to explode until after penetration is what makes the example moot - as the blast protection never comes into play before penetration and the blast didn't add anything except making the guardsman more dead. Even if the bolt's explosive charge is triggered by contact and it fails to penetrate - unless one assumes full body coverage there will still be some damage to unprotected areas. If it exploded near the face or even at the body in the case of a Catachan flak vest - the explosion would probably be fatal. Damage reduction != damage prevention.

Keep wrote:Yes if we compare it with today, but not compared with the technology of other races. (Orks aside)

Orks have some of the most advanced technology in the entire 40k galaxy.

A Bolter shell would smash you to bits with KE if you were wearing FLAK armour. FLAK armour protects against shrapnel at a reasonable range, (Anti aircraft artillery specifically as it was designed in WW2 to protect Bomber crews from being chewed up by German 88's). I would not for example lie on a hand grenade wearing Flak Armour safe in the knowledge that it would protect me from the Schrapnel. Which it might, but the explosion of the Grenade and the local blastwave overpressure would probably kill me if not the explosive ripping apart the armour. FLAK armour is to counter a specific threat, no armour can defend against all types of threat.

If your close enough to a large enough explosion regardless of whether you are wearing a battletank you will get "Pink Misted" as we say in my day job.......

sometime even when body armor stops penetration, the overall concussive force is still lethal,

yup, on that note, do you know what the bomb suits the EOD people use are for? .... open or closed casket.

If your close enough to a large enough explosion regardless of whether you are wearing a battletank you will get "Pink Misted" as we say in my day job.......

you need to talk to some of the people on here, aparantly they helped in the development of the grenade round for the AA12.