Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Force Weapons are even under the 'special close combat weapons' header on page 42. How is it not a close combat weapon? And as you already stated from the FAQ, all close combat weapons are single handled unless specifically overridden in the item's rules, such as for the Halberd.

biccat wrote:
Actually, it hasn't. I have read through the thread, and nowhere has it been shown that a Nemesis Falchion is a ccw as required by the faq.

This might come across as harsh: Read the fething manual. On page 42, under the heading "close combat weapons", there is an entry for "Force weapons", stating: "These psychic weapons are described on page 50." Thus, we flip to page 50, and find the text that says: "Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers. They have the same effects as Power weapons [...]".

Page 54 of C:GK states that "All Nemesis weapons are force weapons as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." Thus, they are CCWs.

As per the BRB FAQ (which I, from what you've stated so far, believe you're misinterpreting), any close combat weapon that isn't 2-handed is 1-handed. The entry on C:GKs page 54 doesn't mention Nemesis Falchions being 2-handed, ergo they are 1-handed. This has been stated repeatedly in this thread, so I find it difficult to believe that you've missed it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Biccat : one, final time, just for you.

1) Every. Single. Page. has shown this. See ph34rs response just above yours. See the quote where I told you to look at page 50.

Just because you havent seen it, doesnt mean it isnt there.

I looked, it doesn't address Nemesis Force Weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) LC are the exception to the standard rules for gaining bonus attacks. Not sure why you have posted an irrelevant example otherwise.

So are power fists. And thunderhammers. Are NFW? Maybe.

nosferatu1001 wrote:3) I want you to either AGREE or DISAGREE that a NFW is a single handed CCW. The appropriate rules have been shown, I would just like you to actually post a conclusion, rather than a lot of questions where you seemingly choose to ignore 17 pages proving you wrong.

Disagree. They are not specifically described as a single handed CCW, and are therefore not.

The lightning claw & power fist rules are relevant because they are examples where the child does not share all of the properties of the parent. Just because a NFW is a FW doesn't mean it shares all of the properties of the FW. Same for FW and PW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The +1 attack side has been refuted as well, repeatedly. I guess you missed it?

Must have, because the +2 attack side doesn't make sense.

nosferatu1001 wrote:4) See point 1. It IS A SINGLE HANDED CCW. It is also NOT one of the exceptions listed on page 42 to the standard rules for gaining a bonus attack, therefore it isnt

Do you expect the BRB to address all weapons that could ever exist for any codex? Neither do I.

So we have the FAQ. It says that any weapons that are a single handed CCW will be specifically referred to as such. Nemesis Falchions are not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:5) Wow, seriously. read the codex It explicitly states that you get a bonus attack for wielding a pair. NOONE has claimed that a single NF grants +1 attack by itself. You are now resorting to that great fallacy - the strawman argument.

You need to learn what a strawman is. Besides, if Noone is arguing it, it's not a strawman.

I agree you get a bonus attack for wielding a pair. We all agree. It says so right there in the rules.

Like I said tho: does a Nemesis Falchion inherently grant an extra attack? The only way to affirmatively answer this would be if a model with 1 Nemesis Falchion got +1 attacks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BTW: if you actually had read the codex you would notice that the rules for Nemesis weapons state they grant an additional bonus. The bonus for 2 CCW is never an "additional" bonus but an inherent one.

It says an additional bonus beyond 2 ccw? Also, page 42 makes it clear that 2 ccw gives either a "bonus" or "additional" attack.

Are "inherent bonuses" defined somewhere in the rulebook?

nosferatu1001 wrote:6) The language is not unclear. The special Nemesis bonus of the Flachion is you get +1 attack if you have 2 of them, same as the special Nemesis bonus of a Halberd is to increase your initiative. The language is VERY clear - it does not say it is the bonus for 2 CCW, so it isnt

Right, I agree. It does not say that the bonus is for 2 CCW. But that doesn't mean that it isn't. See the Chaos Dread for example.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, that is your points comprehensively dealt with. Oddly enough every single one of your points was dealt with on the previous pages, whcih you have chosen to pretend dont exist.

Don't pretend they don't exist, just pointing out that the arguments are inconsistent with the rules. Inconsistencies generally indicate that an argument is wrong.

biccat wrote:

ph34r wrote:Either you don't think any power weapon in the entire game counts as a CCW, or you concede that a NFW counts as a CCW. There is no third option.

"A lightning claw is a power weapon..." p. 42.
"A power fist is a power weapon..." p. 42.
"A dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon..." p. 73.

Please resolve this issue.

all of these are power weapons with additional rules.


these additional rules for LCs and PFs are that they can't claim the +1A bonus for having 2 CCWs without a 2nd LC or PF.

DCCWs double the wielders Str(technically, an infantry model that was able to wield one would get a bonus for having a normal CCW)

Biccat, go read the BRB FAQ again; it says the opposite of what you're claiming (I'm assuming we wrote our walls of text at the same time.

biccat wrote:I agree you get a bonus attack for wielding a pair. We all agree. It says so right there in the rules.

Like I said tho: does a Nemesis Falchion inherently grant an extra attack? The only way to affirmatively answer this would be if a model with 1 Nemesis Falchion got +1 attacks.

Wow, so you are wrong, but instead of being wrong on the potentially tricky thing, you are wrong on the "holy crap this is so obvious" thing.

If you are wielding a PAIR of falchions you gain an additional attack as per their rules.

And, as you seem to realize, wielding two falchions also grants you +1 attack from the basic ccw rules.

1 attack for having 2 weapons, 1 attack for the NFFalchion specifically stating that you gain an additional bonus attack if wielding a pair.

If a model had 1 Falchion it would get zero bonus attacks, as the rules only give you a bonus attack if you have a pair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) LC are the exception to the standard rules for gaining bonus attacks. Not sure why you have posted an irrelevant example otherwise.

So are power fists. And thunderhammers. Are NFW? Maybe.

How is that relevant at all? The NFF has no special rule regarding how it can or can't get bonus attacks. What rules power fists have has zero to do with falchions.

the rule states that an extra ccw confers an extra attack but in the falchions rules it says nothing about them being ccws and therefore dont confer an extra attack for that but then do for their rule. I presume the nice people at GW were just trying to make it clearer for us gamers but have accidendly made it worse.

dignifiedsausage wrote:the rule states that an extra ccw confers an extra attack but in the falchions rules it says nothing about them being ccws and therefore dont confer an extra attack for that but then do for their rule. I presume the nice people at GW were just trying to make it clearer for us gamers but have accidendly made it worse.

Falchions are Nemesis Weapons which in turn are Force Weapons which in turn are Power Weapons which in turn are Close Combat Weapons.

Please try to read the thread before chiming in.

Falchions are close combat weapons. This is not up for debate. Well, some people think it is. It really isn't.

So we have the FAQ. It says that any weapons that are a single handed CCW will be specifically referred to as such. Nemesis Falchions are not.

This actually seems conclusive to me. Whilst the part of me keen to play GKs would be pleased were Falchions to grant +2 attacks, it didn't seem intuitively correct to me that they would on first opening this thread and having perused it, I'm now pretty certain. Pair of Falchions grants +1 Attack for them being two weapons is what the rather ambiguously worded description means.

Artemo wrote:

So we have the FAQ. It says that any weapons that are a single handed CCW will be specifically referred to as such. Nemesis Falchions are not.

This actually seems conclusive to me.

Except that is not what the FAQ states.

Almost the exact opposite, in fact.

How is this difficult to understand? It says it right in the picture "+1 attack".


You have to buy them in pairs, you get +2 attacks. Kinda simple really.


Edit -
Damn people messing with my head.

What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the
purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

is what it says in the FAQ.

Nemesis falchions are invariably wielded as a pair. In many ways they resemble shorter versions of the Nemesis Force Sword, with a much reduced hook-ended blade. By triggering the monofilament circuitry within his Nemesis falchions, a Grey Knight can wield these blades with incredible speed, striking several blows in the time it would normally take one to fall. the wielder of a pair of Nemesis falchions has +1 Attack.

is what it says in the GK Codex. Nowhere in there does it describe them as a pistol, close combat weapon or specifically state they are a single-handed weapon.

People are getting hung up on them being a pair and not considering that in fact they are never wielded singly and are thus in fact a two handed weapon that grants +1 attack. But also overlooking the fact that they do not meet the requirements of the rules as clarified in the FAQ to be considered for a normal +1 attack bonus too.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Biccat, go read the BRB FAQ again; it says the opposite of what you're claiming (I'm assuming we wrote our walls of text at the same time.

Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the
purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

Er, how is that the opposite of what I said?

Nemesis falchions are never specifically described as single-handed weapons or as close combat weapons or as pistols, thus their +1 attack is not an additional one.

is what it says in the GK Codex. Nowhere in there does it describe them as a pistol, close combat weapon or specifically state they are a single-handed weapon.

You haven't listed all the rules for Nemisis Falchions. You;ve missed the bit about them being nemisis weapons. Which means force weapons + other special rules = Power Weapons (+ OSR) = CCWs (+ OSR).

This has been stated and never refuted about 100 times so far in this thread...

They are force weapons, yes. And those are quite clearly listed as SPECIAL close combat weapons not simply close combat weapons. Now the argument then seems to be that if you buy two lightning claws, or happen to possess two power fists, you get an extra attack. Very well then, buy two pairs of Nemesis falchions for a figure (illegal) and you qualify for an extra +1 attack if he has four hands in which to wield them...

Artemo wrote:Nemesis falchions are never specifically described as single-handed weapons or as close combat weapons or as pistols, thus their +1 attack is not an additional one.

Wrong. NFF are Force Weapons which are Power Weapons which are Close Combat Weapons.

Artemo wrote:People are getting hung up on them being a pair and not considering that in fact they are never wielded singly and are thus in fact a two handed weapon that grants +1 attack. But also overlooking the fact that they do not meet the requirements of the rules as clarified in the FAQ to be considered for a normal +1 attack bonus too.

Who cares if they are never wielded singly. See: Blood talons, assault terminator lightning claws, etc. It doesn't. Matter.
It's a pair. They are close combat weapons.

Artemo wrote:They are force weapons, yes. And those are quite clearly listed as SPECIAL close combat weapons not simply close combat weapons. Now the argument then seems to be that if you buy two lightning claws, or happen to possess two power fists, you get an extra attack. Very well then, buy two pairs of Nemesis falchions for a figure (illegal) and you qualify for an extra +1 attack if he has four hands in which to wield them...

Power fists, lightning claws, etc. state in their rules that they require an additional copy to gain a bonus attack.

Force Weapons are Power Weapons which are Close Combat weapons. You can wield a power weapon and a pistol and get +1 attack. You can wield a force weapon and pistol and get +1 attack. You can wield a NFW and pistol and get +1 attack. You can wield a NFW and NFW and get +1 attack. A Pair of Nemesis Falchions is two weapons which in turn give +1 attack as per the RULEBOOK WHICH YOU NEED TO READ, SERIOUSLY. They also give +1 attack if you wield two of them.

ONE PLUS ONE EQUALS TWO

Also picture for those unable to grasp what has been conveyed by words for several pages:

Artemo wrote: Nemesis falchions are never specifically described as single-handed weapons or as close combat weapons or as pistols, thus their +1 attack is not an additional one.

you are correct


HOWEVER, Nemisis Falchions are described as Nemisis Weapons that give +1A

Nemisis Weapons are Force Weapons,

Force Weapons are, act as in every way, Power Weapons,

power weapons are CCWs,

CCWs are single handed unless specifically defined otherwise.

I'll grace you guys with some good ol' fashion rules comprehension, consider the NFW =/= single handed CCW argument under siege.

Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons with additional bonus's.

These include Daemonbane, and their further abilities.

The way to define which Nemesis Force Weapons gain what further abilites is by giving them names.

Nemesis Daemonhammers are force weapons with additional bonus's (as per the NFW rules), but share the rules for thunder hammers, and therefore, cannot gain an extra attack for a bonus CCW. Nemesis Daemonhammers bonus include being a NFW, and being a thunder hammer.

Nemesis Force Swords are force weapons with additional bonus's (as per the NFW rules) and are not in the thunderhammer, lightning claw nor powerfist family, and therefore, can gain an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon. This weapons bonus's include being a NFW, and the ability to give a model 1+ to their invulnerable save (Or 1- depending on how you see it)

Nemesis Falchions are force weapons with additional bonus's (as per the NFW rules), and their bonus is to give 1+ to the models attack stat as well as being NFW. BUT they MUST be wielded as a pair, therefore, allowing their Further Ability (which states they must be wielded as a pair to use) to activate: +1 Attack.

NFF are not described as a pair in their rules entry under the Nemesis Force Weapons header. Therefore, the rules applying to them are: Demonbane, and Further Abilities. Sadly, Further Abilities states they must be wielded as a pair to claim their Further Ability, 1+ attack. Thankfully, they must be taken as a pair, lest they have no applicable bonus, and a sword be taken instead. As such, all abilities and penalties taken into account, NFF upon fighting a close combat, will use the following abilities/rules.

NFW: They are power weapons and force weapons, and all of their wounds can be FW wounds upon activating Brotherhood of Psykers after the first wound.
Daemonbane.
Further Abilities: NFF grant +1 attack.
But, as stated earlier, they must be taken as a pair, as although under their heading, they are a single nemesis force weapon, it also says under their heading they MUST be in a pair to take their further ability. As such the Nemesis Force Falchions - which are Force Weapons with extra abilities, Which are power weapons with extra abilities, which are close combat weapons with extra abilities - are wielded in a pair, as their Further Ability requires. As such, a pair of close combat weapons is wielded, their Further Ability is activated, and so is the rule, as laid down in the BRB, that wielding a pair of CCW confers a bonus attack. Not +1 attack, not an EXTRA ATTACK, A BONUS ATTACK, which is VERY different from +1 Attack.

A bonus attack (or in Ph34rs rather helpful post above, its called an additional attack) is VERY different from +1 Attack. A bonus attack is an extra attack put on top of all of your other cumulative attacks, unless your cumulative attacks add up to 10. +1 Attack (note the capital on attack, observable in the OP on page 1) is literally adding an attack to your Attack Characteristic.

+2A.

This thread is an excellent example of why:

GW would be out of business if people didn't already have so much of their crap.

and

B: I have little desire to play this instead of Warmachine.

Kurb wrote:This thread is an excellent example of why:

GW would be out of business if people didn't already have so much of their crap.

and

B: I have little desire to play this instead of Warmachine.

These issues probably aren't a problem for GW's target audience: people who aren't really concerned about water tight rules.

So, it is left up to us, the more serious players to figure them out.

Fortunately, I think we can finally put this issue to rest: NFF provide +2A total.

And thus they can now be considered a purchase rather than a "lolwut? Do you think I'm an idiot?!"

Any arguments remain from the +1 attack crowd?

Do I hear silence? Is that possible?

Im surprised we didnt see any "Yo dawg, we saw you liked putting attacks on your attacks, so we put attacks on your attacks on your attacks so you can attack while you attack!"

Just waiting on the FAQ..... with the champagne chilling.

I do love how +1 power weapon attack is considered "Useless" though.... Especially when linked to the same model also having an assault 2 stormbolter....
Really..... We all know the FAQ will incite all kinds of nerd rage when the +2 camp is denied.

Slackermagee wrote:

Actually, when you put it that way, all you're getting is an extra attack inside the bonus attack for having two close combat weapons. It's like yo put attacks on your attack so you can attack while you're attacking! **Someone roll up the meme pic for this please!**

Jaon wrote:Do I hear silence? Is that possible?

Im surprised we didnt see any "Yo dawg, we saw you liked putting attacks on your attacks, so we put attacks on your attacks on your attacks so you can attack while you attack!"

Actually...

I dont see anywhere in the rules where it explicitly states the force weapon is single handed. Maybe I missed it?

Force Weapons are Power weapons.

power weapons are CCWs.


CCWs are ALWAYS single handed unless specifically designated otherwise.

Black Fiend wrote:I dont see anywhere in the rules where it explicitly states the force weapon is single handed. Maybe I missed it?

Where does it say Lightning Claws are single handed?

What about Power fists?

Thunder hammers?