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 xttz wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think T5 on some TMC for the exchange of more wounds would be okay. Like on a Trygon or Mawloc because they're more snakey and made for moving quickly. But for a carnifex i would stick with T6 since they're the bashers of the army.

Could you imagine a trygon with something crazy like 7 or 8 wounds! even with T5 it would be a ral headache for the opponent to take down

Unless it's something like 100pts or able to fly, no MC should be under T6. Virtually any codex can insta-kill T5 MC's with S10 weapons that have been around forever (Demolishers, Wraithcannons, Railguns).

I would really like to see more variation in MC profiles though, rather than making all Nid MC's equally susceptible to the same weapons. For example:

Hive Tyrant = T6 W4/5
Carnifex = T7 W4
Trygon = T6 W6
Tfex = T8 W3/4

This means you can't rely on Krak / Plasma weapons (or S6 spam) to counter everything the same way, and you're better off using lascannon / melta against certain creatures.

You have to think about gameplay...a Trygon having fleet means that it has to be less survivable...or cost much much more...and more points means less models sold for GW

 ductvader wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think T5 on some TMC for the exchange of more wounds would be okay. Like on a Trygon or Mawloc because they're more snakey and made for moving quickly. But for a carnifex i would stick with T6 since they're the bashers of the army.

Could you imagine a trygon with something crazy like 7 or 8 wounds! even with T5 it would be a ral headache for the opponent to take down

Unless it's something like 100pts or able to fly, no MC should be under T6. Virtually any codex can insta-kill T5 MC's with S10 weapons that have been around forever (Demolishers, Wraithcannons, Railguns).

I would really like to see more variation in MC profiles though, rather than making all Nid MC's equally susceptible to the same weapons. For example:

Hive Tyrant = T6 W4/5
Carnifex = T7 W4
Trygon = T6 W6
Tfex = T8 W3/4

This means you can't rely on Krak / Plasma weapons (or S6 spam) to counter everything the same way, and you're better off using lascannon / melta against certain creatures.

You have to think about gameplay...a Trygon having fleet means that it has to be less survivable...or cost much much more...and more points means less models sold for GW

In what way does having fleet mean a model has to be 'less survivable'? Being 'fleet' means a model is faster, but that doesn't mean inherently weaker as well.

I think the faster = lower toughness is close to the same as flying = lower toughness. Something that wants to move fast needs to be, in theory at least, lighter and more agile. Which would lead you to think it has less armour.
Don't get me wrong, i love MC and i love them even more when they're tough, but just being big shouldn't naturally make you tougher then things that are smaller but better armoured. So the slower moving carnifex that is made for being able to take the hits is tougher then the fast moving assault monster

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think the faster = lower toughness is close to the same as flying = lower toughness. Something that wants to move fast needs to be, in theory at least, lighter and more agile. Which would lead you to think it has less armour.
Don't get me wrong, i love MC and i love them even more when they're tough, but just being big shouldn't naturally make you tougher then things that are smaller but better armoured. So the slower moving carnifex that is made for being able to take the hits is tougher then the fast moving assault monster

In general this is truth, disregard physics when it comes t daemons though.

My comment was more about how GW attempts overall to balance units.

Damage Capabilty
Damage Absorption
Delivery

These are the areas that I would say are the biggest factors in unit costing (there are many mnay others as well, I almost put Versatility in there as well)

As you begin to gain strength in certain areas, you need to lose it in others...or see a points increase. Trygons are snakes and MCs...Delivery and Damage causing are not an issue...damage absorption needs to be their downfall.

Wraithlords...can take and deal the damage...but can't get there...the carnifex is similar in some aspects.

The only unit of our that gets to do it all...is the tyrant...and then you pay the points.

 ductvader wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think T5 on some TMC for the exchange of more wounds would be okay. Like on a Trygon or Mawloc because they're more snakey and made for moving quickly. But for a carnifex i would stick with T6 since they're the bashers of the army.

Could you imagine a trygon with something crazy like 7 or 8 wounds! even with T5 it would be a ral headache for the opponent to take down

Unless it's something like 100pts or able to fly, no MC should be under T6. Virtually any codex can insta-kill T5 MC's with S10 weapons that have been around forever (Demolishers, Wraithcannons, Railguns).

I would really like to see more variation in MC profiles though, rather than making all Nid MC's equally susceptible to the same weapons. For example:

Hive Tyrant = T6 W4/5
Carnifex = T7 W4
Trygon = T6 W6
Tfex = T8 W3/4

This means you can't rely on Krak / Plasma weapons (or S6 spam) to counter everything the same way, and you're better off using lascannon / melta against certain creatures.

You have to think about gameplay...a Trygon having fleet means that it has to be less survivable...or cost much much more...and more points means less models sold for GW

A trygon is a *small biotitan* which always implies that it is still pretty damn huge and powerful compared to the rest of the TMC rabble

Heck it used to be a t7 5 wounds Gargantuan creature.

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think the faster = lower toughness is close to the same as flying = lower toughness. Something that wants to move fast needs to be, in theory at least, lighter and more agile. Which would lead you to think it has less armour.
Don't get me wrong, i love MC and i love them even more when they're tough, but just being big shouldn't naturally make you tougher then things that are smaller but better armoured. So the slower moving carnifex that is made for being able to take the hits is tougher then the fast moving assault monster

The Trygon is like 2 times the size of the Carnifex, It isn't going to be less tougher.

Sometimes speed is a factor of sheer size, rather than agility. A 30-ft monster by the nature of its structure should move faster than a 12-ft monster. I think the game balance issue here isn't making the Trygons weaker, but carnifexes should have higher toughness.

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think T5 on some TMC for the exchange of more wounds would be okay. Like on a Trygon or Mawloc because they're more snakey and made for moving quickly. But for a carnifex i would stick with T6 since they're the bashers of the army.

Could you imagine a trygon with something crazy like 7 or 8 wounds! even with T5 it would be a ral headache for the opponent to take down

Unless it's something like 100pts or able to fly, no MC should be under T6. Virtually any codex can insta-kill T5 MC's with S10 weapons that have been around forever (Demolishers, Wraithcannons, Railguns).

I would really like to see more variation in MC profiles though, rather than making all Nid MC's equally susceptible to the same weapons. For example:

Hive Tyrant = T6 W4/5
Carnifex = T7 W4
Trygon = T6 W6
Tfex = T8 W3/4

This means you can't rely on Krak / Plasma weapons (or S6 spam) to counter everything the same way, and you're better off using lascannon / melta against certain creatures.

You have to think about gameplay...a Trygon having fleet means that it has to be less survivable...or cost much much more...and more points means less models sold for GW

A trygon is a *small biotitan* which always implies that it is still pretty damn huge and powerful compared to the rest of the TMC rabble

Heck it used to be a t7 5 wounds Gargantuan creature.

And then they took it out of Apocalypse...

 ductvader wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think T5 on some TMC for the exchange of more wounds would be okay. Like on a Trygon or Mawloc because they're more snakey and made for moving quickly. But for a carnifex i would stick with T6 since they're the bashers of the army.

Could you imagine a trygon with something crazy like 7 or 8 wounds! even with T5 it would be a ral headache for the opponent to take down

Unless it's something like 100pts or able to fly, no MC should be under T6. Virtually any codex can insta-kill T5 MC's with S10 weapons that have been around forever (Demolishers, Wraithcannons, Railguns).

I would really like to see more variation in MC profiles though, rather than making all Nid MC's equally susceptible to the same weapons. For example:

Hive Tyrant = T6 W4/5
Carnifex = T7 W4
Trygon = T6 W6
Tfex = T8 W3/4

This means you can't rely on Krak / Plasma weapons (or S6 spam) to counter everything the same way, and you're better off using lascannon / melta against certain creatures.

You have to think about gameplay...a Trygon having fleet means that it has to be less survivable...or cost much much more...and more points means less models sold for GW

A trygon is a *small biotitan* which always implies that it is still pretty damn huge and powerful compared to the rest of the TMC rabble

Heck it used to be a t7 5 wounds Gargantuan creature.

And then they took it out of Apocalypse...

And it's still twice as big as a Carnifex and significantly tougher.

If anything it should be T7 again with an option for a 2+ so that it can drink the tears and butthurt of Krak missile users.

Trygons don't have to be weaker to be Fleet, they just have to cost slightly more points than a theoretical MC with the same stats and without Fleet. Personally I think they're fine the way they are right now.

IMHO Mass = wounds, Mechanics of material = Toughness ... (Mechanics of material is how strong it is)
Nurgle Daemon (sorry cannot remember his name or which apoc book he was in) Toughness 10 and a shed load of wounds. Lots of mass and made up by fat and warp energy. His toughness doesn't come from being able to deflect shots but rather that its like shooting water, big splash, ripples and gone.
Wraith Lord/Knight are effectively just bone nothing squishy so high toughness. Not much mass so fewer wounds
Tyranids have a lots of redundancy built in they also heal very quickly. Lots of wounds but they are still flesh and blood (Not warp energy), so small things can still wear them down.

If i had one wish for the next Nids codex it would be a biomorph that reduced the effectiveness of poison. Ether reroll successful woulds or counting the poison value (ie 4+) as being one worse (ie 5+)

Amen to the above! Also require blade storm and rending to re-roll 6's would be nice too, but that's wish listing.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Amen to the above! Also require blade storm and rending to re-roll 6's would be nice too, but that's wish listing.

Bladestorm and monofilament are described as the propulsion of microshard projectiles that are so small they can fit through the spaces in the molecules of armor.

Bugs have nothing like this...It would be more of a focus on what living ammo can do...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know you weren't serious...just laying down the why...

(^_^)

It would be better to gave FNP in their MC, to represent their capacity to regenerate from damage.
And no MC should have lower T than 6, with the exception of FMC like the Harpy.

Also my wish is a rule in our FMC that let them ignore grounding tests.

If there's 1 unit in the entirety of 40k that desperately needs and deserves Feel No Pain it's the current Carnifex. Seriously, every time I read any fluff about a Carnifex it involves said Carnifex feeling no pain.

And yet pain continues to be felt by carnifexes everywhere. The tragedy!

 PrinceRaven wrote:
If there's 1 unit in the entirety of 40k that desperately needs and deserves Feel No Pain it's the current Carnifex. Seriously, every time I read any fluff about a Carnifex it involves said Carnifex feeling no pain.

I bet we can guess what the Old One Eye character upgrade is going to do for a fex unit.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
And yet pain continues to be felt by carnifexes everywhere. The tragedy!

And even more pain is felt when us the players look at their army list entry..