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I see being able to run/assault fit the tyranids.

I was looking through the new apocalypse book, to see
if maybe there were some hints for what the next tyranid codex might see in it's pages, and I have a couple suppositions based on what's in it.

1.) A divine intervention that allows all tyranids on the table to run, shoot, and assault (if they're fleet) on the same turn. maybe this would translate into a battle-focus type ability in the next codex.
2.) Vanguard infestation - currently reads that genestealers in the formation get to deploy via chameleonic skin, like lictors. Well right now that's trash, because they can't assault when they pop up like that -- if chameleonic skin allows assault in the next book, that apoc formation suddenly makes sense for the scale of apoc games. (also note that it can't appear until after a break, so usually turn 3 or later before your "vanguard" even shows up -- not assaulting further ruins the fluff of that one).

Because you can't tie up a unit in several rounds of combat with shooting.

I like the fluff of it, I like the idea of it, and I agree that Tyranid needs some way to be able to spring forward, so to speak, but I think that this needs to come from reserve manipulation, directional pressure from multiple angles, and other factors outside of outright speed.

The problem with that huge of an assault range is that, whereas shooting can be exchanged and tactics can be utilized to position, reposition, and so forth, assault locks a unit in place and in the combat until it's resolved, which heavily bogs down the opposing army. I'm not saying this is a bad thing in and of itself, but the sheer volume of units you'd give this capability would mean tyranid units could reliability shut down any foot army not through clever maneuver or stealthy deployment and ambushes, but by simply rushing everything. Yes, it's fluffy, but it doesn't leave much room for gameplay if you get my meaning.

rollawaythestone wrote:

Here's the problem though, this means that' reliably, a tyranid player could get into contact from nearly 24 inches away if they have a 12 inch movement like any are asking for here for assault troop units in the thread.. This means anything with a 24 in range gun is going to face a lot of problems with facing tyranids because of the sheer amount of units on the field and the overlap a zone that big entails. It's not that they're so difficult on their own to overcome that big of a distance, but you're essentially saying that a gaunt can match a fast skimmer tank moving flat out in speed, and I think that's a little much.

How fluffy would that be? Hoards of gribbles that can't be killed fast enough swarming towards you. I also think it would mean that the assault options in the codex might actually be used instead of the typical Tervigon/Termagant spam. This would give Hormagants an actual reason to be taken, and give a needed boost to Genestealers, Raveners, etc. Why is being able to Run / Assault any more overpowered than Eldar being about to Run / Shoot?

I agree 100%. I think that the ability to run and asault would be a wonderful addition to not only support the fluff but also make an assault based army good at assault. I don't think they would be OP becasue they still need to get into assault and there's a lot of guns out there that kill the bugs just fine. Why should an army have great guns and not have to worry about assault when a great assault army ALWAYS has to worry about guns?

Given the fate of the bloodcrusher and carnifex in their latest books I expect Tervigons and Zoans to take a hard hit.

I also expect however, that the Pyrovore will metamorphisize into the single most overpowered unit in the history of forever bringing woe and misery to all who mocked it before.

If you want to be able to run and assault, I don't think I'd also ask for 12 inch movement/beasts.

Again, you guys are talking about the fluff aspects of overwhelming numbers mitigating the assault defenses of other armies. I am not disagreeing with you *in regards to the fluff*, nor am I saying that tyranids should be stuck in the hole they have now.

But you have to understand assault, as it is in this game, by it's nature, carries certain benefits to it simply by existing: Locking down an enemy's movement, not being shot at, not allowing him to shoot out of assault. It creates conditions which alter the game as it is *played* significantly. Having a huge, 24inch-ish assault range just makes it too hard for anyone not loading everything into a "mehtahl boxxiz" to do anything about being swarmed.

Yes Tyranids should swarm. It's what they do. It's who they are. Long live the swarm.

But you've gotta give people a way to counteract that swarm. having several cheap, easy choices for troops with huge assault ranges doesn't leave much wiggle room for anything that isn't mechanized.

deathmagiks wrote:
If you want to be able to run and assault, I don't think I'd also ask for 12 inch movement/beasts.

Again, you guys are talking about the fluff aspects of overwhelming numbers mitigating the assault defenses of other armies. I am not disagreeing with you *in regards to the fluff*, nor am I saying that tyranids should be stuck in the hole they have now.

But you have to understand assault, as it is in this game, by it's nature, carries certain benefits to it simply by existing: Locking down an enemy's movement, not being shot at, not allowing him to shoot out of assault. It creates conditions which alter the game as it is *played* significantly. Having a huge, 24inch-ish assault range just makes it too hard for anyone not loading everything into a "mehtahl boxxiz" to do anything about being swarmed.

Yes Tyranids should swarm. It's what they do. It's who they are. Long live the swarm.

But you've gotta give people a way to counteract that swarm. having several cheap, easy choices for troops with huge assault ranges doesn't leave much wiggle room for anything that isn't mechanized.

Some others have suggested making some units Beasts, thus giving them the 12 inch move. I am advocating just giving out the Army-wide rule that everyone can run and assault. I agree, making things Beasts AND giving them Run/Assault would be too nasty without points increases to accompany them, which I wouldn't want. Although, things that are already Beasts in the Codex, like Raveners, would get a nice little boost - making them an actual option when compared to Gargoyles.

rollawaythestone wrote:

deathmagiks wrote:
If you want to be able to run and assault, I don't think I'd also ask for 12 inch movement/beasts.

Again, you guys are talking about the fluff aspects of overwhelming numbers mitigating the assault defenses of other armies. I am not disagreeing with you *in regards to the fluff*, nor am I saying that tyranids should be stuck in the hole they have now.

But you have to understand assault, as it is in this game, by it's nature, carries certain benefits to it simply by existing: Locking down an enemy's movement, not being shot at, not allowing him to shoot out of assault. It creates conditions which alter the game as it is *played* significantly. Having a huge, 24inch-ish assault range just makes it too hard for anyone not loading everything into a "mehtahl boxxiz" to do anything about being swarmed.

Yes Tyranids should swarm. It's what they do. It's who they are. Long live the swarm.

But you've gotta give people a way to counteract that swarm. having several cheap, easy choices for troops with huge assault ranges doesn't leave much wiggle room for anything that isn't mechanized.

Some others have suggested making some units Beasts, thus giving them the 12 inch move. I am advocating just giving out the Army-wide rule that everyone can run and assault. I agree, making things Beasts AND giving them Run/Assault would be too nasty without points increases to accompany them, which I wouldn't want.

Hear, hear. Never was i a proponent of giving 12" move AND run/assault to bugs, i think one or the other would suit just fine. I think having most infantry move 6" and then get 'battle focus' for assault would be balanced and fluffy. the one or 2 units with a 12" move and 'battle focus' would be point costed appropriately, or given other nerfs to compensate for their speed. Look at seekers of slaanesh - 12" move, d6+6" run (with fleet). The downside is they are T3 with a 5++ save only. Speed does come at a cost.

Did anyone have an opinion on my terrain deep striking idea?

Additionally, I'm ok with run and assault if it's 6 inch move.
Maybe even have a purchasable upgrade that allowed that army rule to be "upgraded" to allow for assaulting from reserves/deep strike. That way, you could limit it to units that would truly take advantage of/justify the price of this upgrade.

Oh yes, making them beasts AND the run/assault would be too much.

So we've talked a lot about swarms but What about MC. I mean aside from wanting a cheaper carnifex with more options, what other change would people like to see with the big bad bugs? I believe some one mentioned making the "living batering ram" special rule a little better.

What else?


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deathmagiks wrote:
Did anyone have an opinion on my terrain deep striking idea?

Additionally, I'm ok with run and assault if it's 6 inch move.
Maybe even have a purchasable upgrade that allowed that army rule to be "upgraded" to allow for assaulting from reserves/deep strike. That way, you could limit it to units that would truly take advantage of/justify the price of this upgrade.

I think that's a good idea. Maybe you really need those infiltrating Genestealers to get ito combat quickly and so could pay for the upgrade. But maybe you want them just to put pressure from the rear (try not to laugh) or line breaker

My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

To deal with D-scythes via assault first sacrifice something you don't care about to the distortion flames, then charge something else in.

They can only overwatch once after all.

As for waveserpents, Hive guard are actually good there, but in a TAC list I'd still go with Zoans and dakkarants.

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

Yeah my buddy plays Eldar, when the new codex came out i was swearing up and down every turn and questioning what horrible deity would grant space elves such awesomeness and leave the Tyranids in the dust

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

Not... really sure where this came from lol,

but WS are not invincible. Especially against Tyranid, who have hive guard who can ignore cover and jink saves lol. D-Scythes aren't wrong. They're very powerful, true, but that comes from their low AP value. They're only str 4 flamers, no stronger than conventional flamers, and Eldar does not have easy access to flamers outside the odd fire dragon exarch, Wraith lords sporting them and choosing to use them over scatter lasers for some reason instead of staying at range from things that have poison weapons and ignore it's high toughness, or storm guardians who, while cool, essentially melt when starred at harshly enough.

deathmagiks wrote:

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

Not... really sure where this came from lol,

but WS are not invincible. Especially against Tyranid, who have hive guard who can ignore cover and jink saves lol. D-Scythes aren't wrong. They're very powerful, true, but that comes from their low AP value. They're only str 4 flamers, no stronger than conventional flamers, and Eldar does not have easy access to flamers outside the odd fire dragon exarch, Wraith lords sporting them and choosing to use them over scatter lasers for some reason instead of staying at range from things that have poison weapons and ignore it's high toughness, or storm guardians who, while cool, essentially melt when starred at harshly enough.

The distortion rule makes up for that S4. But if you're playing Tyranids and can't absorb some losses you should rethink your list a bit.

We also pay quite a premium for those d-scythes and those serpents aren't very cheap either lol. At least as far as transports go. That said, I love my serpents haha.

It's the fact he kills all of my Tyrant Guard with Dark Reapers because Star-Shot Missiles are bull . And the fact Guardians and any shuriken weapon will take down terminators and Armoured Shell units down incredibly quickly. Despite the rules being new he moans when I question the book and he agrees nids are weaker than other armies so he should not bitch when I say the new Eldar are quite OP against an army that worked best in 5th edition.


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Also who cares if you have to pay 15 points for a S4 AP 2 Flamer that cause Instant Death on 6's! and the fact pretty much every Eldar weapon now causes something stupid on a roll of a 6 and with Laser Lock, Phil Kelly should of designed it better imo. Not Oh look as my basic guardian squad fires twenty shots into your terminators and rips them apart

Living battering ram should be d3 or d6 impact hits instead of what it is now.

Edit - I like the idea of d3 impact hits stock, but upgradeable to d6 with the tusked biomorph.

First of all, It sounds like you're upset because his very expensive unit, with a very expensive upgrade, is killing your poorly protected and poorly positioned unit. That's not BS, that's you having problems with how you're playing what you're playing.

Yes, Bladestorm is a great rule for us to have and hard rule for you to handle, but you understand the units you're mentioning have a 12 inch gun? If you cannot exploit that I think you're using your movement and mobility incorrectly. Guardians are a T3 5+ save unit. You might have to weather 1 round of shooting from them if he's fortunate enough to get them into range and you're slow enough to allow him to, but the second that happens they're toast.

Where's your venomthrope for your cover save? Where's your Hive Guard for the massive cannon shots they have that ignore LOS and Cover and Jink? Where's your shielding units to stand in front of your important ones and soak up shots? Where's your feel no pain?

What you're doing right now is not asking for help finding a solution to something you're having difficulty handling. You're complaining. I do it sometimes too (Mindshackle Scarabs anyone?), but I can tell you right now from experience, you're not going to find a solution like that. Nor are you going to improve as a player.


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Anyways, back on topic.

Has anyone considered Biovore's being able to lauch Flakk spore mines? Similar to Scourges from Starcraft?

The Carnifex wasn't good in 4th edition, it was TOO good. 115 point monstrous creature gun boats that you can field 6 of? Absurd. Not really the role of a Carnifex either by tradition or fluff.

The current one is a tad expensive, but broods of 2 are showing up in successful tournament lists. For 190 points, you get the same shooting output of a 285 point Flyrant, along with something that more easily crushes vehicles and ID's infantry in combat.

The Raveners used to only have game in 5th because of the move+run+assault. Now they move, run, and get shot. Trygons are the same. Genestealers used to Outflank and charge with perfect timing. Now they Outflank and get shot because they can't assault. Or they run up the field and get targeted. Lictors have been terrible since 2nd edition.

The entire army is too reliant on Biomancy for psykers - which it will likely retain access to with a new book. I would like to see them get some more unique psychic abilities, as well as their own Warlord table as the other armies have gotten.

I don't want them to have the same ability to control the shooting phase like Tau or IG; or the same ability to zip around the field like Eldar/Dark Eldar; or dominate the air like Necrons can. Tyranids should be unique to what they do, with some well-rounded options. Oh, and NO ALLIES. Tyranids don't ally with anyone, and I hope that doesn't change with a new book.

Variety is key. Tyranids should be flexible, not mono-build. In 4th edition, it was 6 Carnifex and 2 Hive Tyrants. The end. In 5th, they were just awful. In 6th, it's Flyrants, Tervigons, and season to taste. Same builds over and over. They also have easily the greatest number of completely useless and self-defeating units of any army. Give the Pyrovore a role that makes sense, and move it out of the Elites slot. Maybe an upgrade/addition to a Warriors or Gaunts squad?

From a Force Organization and modeling standpoint, the Tyranids need more of their stuff moved into swarm style broods and plastic kits, respectively. Too many 1-3 models per brood choices, and too many single model clampacks. Tyrant Guard/Hive Guard could easily be a plastic box of 3 with options to make both. Another could be made for Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. That would even save a little money. Raveners have new models, but a re-cut to make a box of 5 (like Wraithguard) would be fair.

I know people will cry blasphemy here, but I don't want the Hive Tyrant to have the twin-linked Brainleech Worms option anymore. Heck, the pieces didn't even come in the new plastic kit. Save the dakka for beasts like Tyrannofexes (thus giving them more of a purpose), and the fighter/bomber plane option for Harpies. The Hive Tyrant should be a field commander with incredible CC and psychic prowess. Convert the Carnifex to more of an armored battering ram, lower he and the T-fex by about 25 points each, and suddenly each monster in the army has a unique role instead of just mimicking one another.

That's what I want: tough choices in army list creation. I want to be rewarded for taking beasts that handle a specific task really well, and using them in a way that maximizes their specialty. I'm glad 6th edition has moved away from giving every unit the option to be well-rounded at everything. I don't want that, because it leads to autopilot list creation, and lots of spam. 6th edition has rewarded playing the mission and list flexibility, and I hope that continues with our book.

I want less whining when something changes. I promise you Shadow in the Warp will get changed, and it will seem weaker. But what we can't do is compare what it will do in the 6th edition book to what it did/does in the 5th edition book. It will be a fully-fledged 6th edition army competing against other fully-fledged 6th edition armies, so the rules are just an adjustment, not a nerf. GW has made an effort to focus on and diversify psychic powers in this edition, without making them Purple Sun OP. In light of this, we will see less and less of an army just being able to say "no" to psychic powers. Hence the reason Runes of Warding was changed with the new Eldar codex. Furthermore, the new codices have all received enough juicy additions to more than make up for an apparent nerf, but people seem to focus on the one change instead of play-testing to find out how it's different. We wouldn't want the army to function exactly the same as before anyway; I embrace getting something new and exciting.

Finally, give the Swarmlord Eternal Warrior without hoping to roll Iron Arm. Seriously...he's like the definition of Eternal Warrior, and should pretty much be the biggest badass in close combat. He's already close, but Draigo, Abaddon, and Mephiston all kind of rofl-stomp him.

I really like your idea about Pyrovores being upgrades for gants/warriors thats cool.

Alternatively, the pyrovore could be the mobile anti-air unit. Shooting out suicide bats or something similar to fly into the engines of aircraft. Gives you a choice, fire directly at the aircraft, or fire additional shots to blanket the sky with explosive mines. Interesting...

I used to kill Draigo and any other awesome SC with gaunts. One game Calgar and his honour guard were sitting threateningly in front of my Tervigon it some gants and the gants won!


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deathmagiks wrote:
Alternatively, the pyrovore could be the mobile anti-air unit. Shooting out suicide bats or something similar to fly into the engines of aircraft. Gives you a choice, fire directly at the aircraft, or fire additional shots to blanket the sky with explosive mines. Interesting...

I'm sorry if I seemed hostile before, I know the Eldar book isn't complete BS but my brother is really annoying when it comes to them because he isn't used to losing and when he wins he is kind of a condescending donkey-cave which is annoying. It annoys me when he tells me how to play my army.

Back to topic I would love if the Parasite was WS 6 and Tyranid Primes had two free options:
Hardened Carapace
Bonded Exoskeleton and Alpha Warrior.... free
Wings and Aerial Assault....free
Aerial Assault: The Tyranid Prime in any unit of Tyranid Shrikes may use its WS and BS as their own and they may re-roll their hammer of wrath attacks(or something like that not quite sure)

Is your brother older or younger? And don't worry about it. I see a lot of the frustration you were discussing in myself sometimes because my very math oriented friend plays Necrons and it gets bad lol.

Ideally, I think the balance from Tyranids is going to come from an element of pressure. being outflanked on both sides whilst dealing with charges, for example, deep srikes from out of terrain, ambushes from areas you thought you controlled, a sky slowly filling with explosive debris that risk wrecking your flyer more and more with each passing turn...

A tyranid army I envision is an army that forces its opponent to play intelligently and on their feet in every round. Against newer players it might seem hugely overwhelming, but against those who've been around it will definitely shake up conventional gameplay.

A flying prime you say?

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
It's the fact he kills all of my Tyrant Guard with Dark Reapers because Star-Shot Missiles are bull . And the fact Guardians and any shuriken weapon will take down terminators and Armoured Shell units down incredibly quickly. Despite the rules being new he moans when I question the book and he agrees nids are weaker than other armies so he should not bitch when I say the new Eldar are quite OP against an army that worked best in 5th edition.


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Also who cares if you have to pay 15 points for a S4 AP 2 Flamer that cause Instant Death on 6's! and the fact pretty much every Eldar weapon now causes something stupid on a roll of a 6 and with Laser Lock, Phil Kelly should of designed it better imo. Not Oh look as my basic guardian squad fires twenty shots into your terminators and rips them apart

The answer is Zoanthropes with Objuration Mechanicum. 6 to hit, you say? Re-roll. 6 to wound, you say? Re-roll.

Deathmagiks hhe's older than me. Yeah I really want a flying Prime that improves Tyranid Shrikes, because Cruddace didn't give them much of a benefit. Xyptc I actually never thought of using Objuration Mechanicum. Thanks. ~ Deathmaster Snikch


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I really want Trygons to be 180pts or something. I know it seems a bit much but In comparison to Lemans Russ Squadrons they are as cheap as . I would prefer Trygons to be Fast Attack as well and move 6 + D6 inches. Trygon Primes to be 210pts and get upgrades that the Hive Tyrant can get, like Armoured Shell and Acid Blood, maybe Toxic Miasma. I would prefer if Toxic Miasma ignored armour saves but was more expensive. Trygon Primes to be heavy support.

Tervigon able to get a Fleshborer Hive and able to purchase a Mycetic Spore, Same with the Tyrannofex. More units able to get Blinding Venom and Thorax Swarms. Broodlords able to get Acid Maw along with other units. Pyrovores like someone has said already are upgrades for Hormagaunts (because they get up close and personal). Pyrovores shouldn't be a unit by themselves now and get rid of the volatile rule because its silly. Biovores stay as their own unit but can join Termagants(any thoughts as to why not?).

Venomthropes and Zoanthropes able to split apart and join gaunt and gant units (Zoanthropes are part of the unit but may split fire). Make Instinctive Behavior like Animosity for Orks in WFB.
1-2 Immobile: The unit can't perform any action this turn unless it is in close combat.(or something like that)
3-4 Feed: (what it does currently but +D6 movement)
5-6 Lurk: (what it does currently but with stealth)

Swarmlord to get the following
Eternal Warrior, Mastery Level 3
'The Swarmlord may be upgraded with one of the following:
Warp Field................................50pts
Rain of Spores*......................50pts
Wings*......................................50pts
Armoured Monstrosity*..........50pts

Rain of Spores(or something like that): Any friendly Tyranid unit deep striking may choose not to scatter if within 12"(or 18") of the Swarmlord.

Wings: The Swarmlord is a Flying Monstrous Creature and may take up to 5 Tyranid Shrikes as bodyguards.

Armoured Monstrosity: The Swarmlord gets a 2+ Armour Save and It Will Not Die(5+*)'

These options would represent the Swarmlord getting born anew and adapting to become better than he was in his previous life.

*5+, I was thinking 4+ but that might be a bit over powered, any thoughts?

A flying swarmlord eh? I think that may not work the best for him. When i think of giving a Tyrant wings i think of him as being anti air and basically shooting support. Not really for close combat. Now maybe a winged Swarmlord would mean getting him to CC just that much quicker but i don't like the thought of my CC champ getting grounded and hurting himself. That's just my thoughts though.

I do like the idea of the armoured shell but i'm sure many of my enemies would hate my for fielding that bady


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And eternal warrior should be a must for him

I'm in the process of buying a Tyranid army, but if I could ask for one thing from a new codex...

...Ass Plasma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DVk2XCmqM4#t=2m20s

(It's at the 2:20 mark if the above link fails to work)

Let's make this happen GW.

You have a good point there MadmanMSU. Why shouldn't we get plasma weapons or an equvilent.

Ass plasma is one gun you don't want to roll a one on for "it get's hot"

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
You have a good point there MadmanMSU. Why shouldn't we get plasma weapons or an equvilent.

Ass plasma is one gun you don't want to roll a one on for "it get's hot"

Carnifexes can already shoot Bio Plasma...its a 12" range Plasma Cannon...20 pts though?

I take it on Screamer Fexes for fun sometimes.