Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But low volumes of stock trades mean that nobody really want to sell the shares

(so even if a company was prepared to go for dubious market manipulation low volumes of trades mean they don't need to)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
But low volumes of stock trades mean that nobody really want to sell the shares

(so even if a company was prepared to go for dubious market manipulation low volumes of trades mean they don't need to)

With no agenda, I will mention that substantial blocks of shrares were sold earlier in the year.

I will add that a stable company that pays a consistently high dividend (in excess of the cash they actually generated on this occasion) is not likely to encourage a quick turnover of stocks.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
Regarding the numbers posted earlier, Corvus Belli said at Gen Con that they grew an another 75% last year.

75%? Bah, that's nothing to the solid growth of 2.8% (at 2.8% inflation) that GW shows

Again that 2.8% growth is what 3 or 4 Corvus Bells? I would hope they have more growth because they are still a start up company. I pray they continue to grow and stick around for some time. GW had similar growth in the late 80's when they emerged into new markets, moved from the UK to Europe and the US. The difference again is where they are in their life cycle, one is mature and the other is a start up.

boyd wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
Regarding the numbers posted earlier, Corvus Belli said at Gen Con that they grew an another 75% last year.

75%? Bah, that's nothing to the solid growth of 2.8% (at 2.8% inflation) that GW shows

Again that 2.8% growth is what 3 or 4 Corvus Bells? I would hope they have more growth because they are still a start up company. I pray they continue to grow and stick around for some time. GW had similar growth in the late 80's when they emerged into new markets, moved from the UK to Europe and the US. The difference again is where they are in their life cycle, one is mature and the other is a start up.

Also, Corvus is entering the hockey stick spike phase of growth. This can make or break them as demand outstrips supply. People can't get their products, lose interest. Hopefully they can ride it out.

Just to put that in perspective, Hasbro's game division only grew 2% last year and Hasbro trumpeted that number. That matches the 2% Zweischneid quoted for growth for licensed games. Seeing people adding WotC had revenue of $139 million last year. So GW is bigger than WotC.

 silent25 wrote:
Seeing people adding WotC had revenue of $139 million last year. So GW is bigger than WotC.

Source? In 1999 WotC had $237 Mio revenue, but in 2008 less than $100 Mio, doubling it since then.
WotC certainly suffered from almost no new D&D products for a long time, with Magic going up and down in popularity.

Edit: Found the source: A confidental one to Brandir on Warseer.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 silent25 wrote:
Seeing people adding WotC had revenue of $139 million last year. So GW is bigger than WotC.

Source? In 1999 WotC had $237 Mio revenue, but in 2008 less than $100 Mio, doubling it since then.
WotC certainly suffered from almost no new D&D products for a long time, with Magic going up and down in popularity.

Edit: Found the source: A confidental one to Brandir on Warseer.

Yup. Don't forget back in 1999 WotC also had the Pokemon boom, the Wizards Game Centers, and the Game Keeper chain under their belt providing revenue. And as we were speculating with GW possibly being bought out, that number was likely inflated/padded to increase the buying price by Hasbro. Hasbro shut down the stores. Pokemon was taken back by Nintendo. Sales of D&D are dead these days because of Pathfinder and anticipation of 5th edition. All WotC really has these days is Magic. It's doing great, but it is really all they have right now.

MtG grew 30% last year and that was the 4th year in a row of 25% or more growth in sales.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/21f46023#/21f46023/5

Page 5

If you read the financials, MtG and WotC are actually carrying the water for Hasbro's game divisions which their traditional board games have largely been displaced by mobile apps which are comparable to the games. While a lot of people think of the 1990s being the hey day of CCGs and MtG in particular, it is now more popular than ever. In 2011, at the shareholders meeting, Hasbro addressed their WotC purchase as a 10 year retrospective.

This past February, Hasbro released another Investors Day slide show which put WotC sales at around $360 million (slide 41 of the HAS Toy Fair Briefing 2013). Slide 111 of the same briefing shows the last 5 years of MtG growth (no numbers on the graph, but units sold has tripled).

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
MtG grew 30% last year and that was the 4th year in a row of 25% or more growth in sales.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/21f46023#/21f46023/5

Page 5

If you read the financials, MtG and WotC are actually carrying the water for Hasbro's game divisions which their traditional board games have largely been displaced by mobile apps which are comparable to the games. While a lot of people think of the 1990s being the hey day of CCGs and MtG in particular, it is now more popular than ever. In 2011, at the shareholders meeting, Hasbro addressed their WotC purchase as a 10 year retrospective.

This past February, Hasbro released another Investors Day slide show which put WotC sales at around $360 million (slide 41 of the HAS Toy Fair Briefing 2013). Slide 111 of the same briefing shows the last 5 years of MtG growth (no numbers on the graph, but units sold has tripled).

Where did you find the Investors Daily slide show? Would like to check out those numbers and see what else is in there. Also to disprove Brandir on Warseer.

Yes I did read it and left out the 30% growth rate. Per Black Diamond Games (Kroothawks favorite source for info), is in a horrible bubble phase. This leads to the 15 - 20 % growth rate being quoted by IcV2 as likely being driven only by that. All the game store owners that have chimed in on discussions openly say MtG keeps the lights on and likely make a large part of their sales. With Pokemon likely also seeing a similar growth, most of the game store growth we are hearing about comes from two products. Not everything else except GW like people keep saying.

I knew Magic was bigger than GW. I was wondering where silent25 got the numbers he talked about earlier in the thread. Now we know, he or someone else made them up.

Pretty much every aspect of the hobby gaming industry (non-traditional board games, card games and miniatures) is growing except for GW. The smaller companies all talk about record growth and Hasbro shows tripling of unit sales for MTG. Fantasy Flight just keeps pumping out the product and X-Wing has been a runaway success. GW? They are stagnant.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I knew Magic was bigger than GW. I was wondering where silent25 got the numbers he talked about earlier in the thread. Now we know, he or someone else made them up.

Pretty much every aspect of the hobby gaming industry (non-traditional board games, card games and miniatures) is growing except for GW. The smaller companies all talk about record growth and Hasbro shows tripling of unit sales for MTG. Fantasy Flight just keeps pumping out the product and X-Wing has been a runaway success. GW? They are stagnant.

I was conveying what Brandir was quoting on Warseer. I do not make up number. Still waiting for Sean to show where he got his numbers. Especially when reading analyst comments on financial sites that state Hasbro doesn't release numbers on the size of WotC. And these are dated after the supposed slide show.

And besides, GW is growing faster than Hasbro.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I knew Magic was bigger than GW. I was wondering where silent25 got the numbers he talked about earlier in the thread. Now we know, he or someone else made them up.

I can confirm that Brandir is usually a good source. Seems his trusted source was wrong this time. silent25 just quoted him.

I have no idea if those breakdowns on Hasbro's internal sales are correct, that if indeed their games are growing so much faster than GW's.

But lest this page becomes an outpost of naysaying, it's worth comparing how the stock market values of Hasbro and GW compare. GW in blue; Hasbro in red.




Doubtless someone will be along soon to tell us how that red line is really higher than the blue one...
You can go to this link
and compare GW to whatever other business you like, simply click on the 'compare' button, then enter their name.

GW's stock has been doing great. They have consistent revenue and pay a large dividend. But when it goes up and down, it really goes up and down. Such volatility may not make it appropriate for all portfolios.

So yeah, if you bought GW at the bottom, they tripled for you. Just like many stocks if you happen to have gotten in at a bottom. Hasbro's been more stagnant in terms of both sales and stock price than GW, but they're also much larger, so move less.

Which would I own right now? Neither stock meets my criteria.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Weird to see their share prices dive every time a new edition comes out...

They're not. You're interpreting the graph wrong. The spike is representing the boost in sales from the new edition being released (which "everyone" needs to buy) and then the dropoff as sales return to a more "normal" level once everyone has the rules.

The 30% is from Hasbros 2012 annual report available on their web page. So I'm sure that number is correct. The $360 million I would like to see along with other stuff that may be in there. Like how much money MLP makes for them..... <_<;

I don't doubt the rough value and was surprised by Brandir's number originally. But then there are analysts that put WotC's numbers from $50 to $400 million. That is quite a range.

Another bit of financial information, the local who got the breakdown of the GW numbers at Games Day also got that FFG revenue is 1 to 2% of GW's revenue.

Tell me again: why do we care? Do Flames of War players research Gale Force 9's annual reports? or Magic players Hasbro?

or os it just anorher facet of the hipster movement to hate GW enough to obsess over every detail of the company?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Tell me again: why do we care? Do Flames of War players research Gale Force 9's annual reports? or Magic players Hasbro?

or os it just anorher facet of the hipster movement to hate GW enough to obsess over every detail of the company?

I hardly think the financial health of an organisation who, like it or not, would damage the wargaming hobby if it collapsed is something that shouldn't be of interest?

But then, this is probably another of your troll posts which you won't follow up, as you essentially have nothing to contribute, so I'll stop typing now.

Flames of War and Gale Force 9 are both BattleFront, so no comparison there.

/pedant

 azreal13 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Tell me again: why do we care? Do Flames of War players research Gale Force 9's annual reports? or Magic players Hasbro?

or os it just anorher facet of the hipster movement to hate GW enough to obsess over every detail of the company?

I hardly think the financial health of an organisation who, like it or not, would damage the wargaming hobby if it collapsed is something that shouldn't be of interest?

But then, this is probably another of your troll posts which you won't follow up, as you essentially have nothing to contribute, so I'll stop typing now.

So are you saying that TSR folded because no one in the RPG hobby was monitoring their finances? Or is it just another way to whine about how much better we all could run GW?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Tell me again: why do we care? Do Flames of War players research Gale Force 9's annual reports? or Magic players Hasbro?

or os it just anorher facet of the hipster movement to hate GW enough to obsess over every detail of the company?

I hardly think the financial health of an organisation who, like it or not, would damage the wargaming hobby if it collapsed is something that shouldn't be of interest?

But then, this is probably another of your troll posts which you won't follow up, as you essentially have nothing to contribute, so I'll stop typing now.

So are you saying that TSR folded because no one in the RPG hobby was monitoring their finances? Or is it just another way to whine about how much better we all could run GW?

I'm saying nothing that would be considered off topic.

But, if you'd like to contribute to the thread, rather than denigrating those who do, I'll gladly listen to your thoughts, and post my thoughts on what you've said.

Then answer my question: would monitoring TSR's finances have kept them in business?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Then answer my question: would monitoring TSR's finances have kept them in business?

Do you know, I actually started to play this game, I had most of my reply written out, then I realised that it is totally irrelevant to the topic, so I stopped.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Tell me again: why do we care? Do Flames of War players research Gale Force 9's annual reports? or Magic players Hasbro?

or os it just anorher facet of the hipster movement to hate GW enough to obsess over every detail of the company?

notprop wrote:Flames of War and Gale Force 9 are both BattleFront, so no comparison there.

/pedant

PWND !

 azreal13 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Then answer my question: would monitoring TSR's finances have kept them in business?

Do you know, I actually started to play this game, I had most of my reply written out, then I realised that it is totally irrelevant to the topic, so I stopped.

So, you can't really tell anyone why we are so concerned about how GW is doing? How many other hobby groups do the same? Considering TSR's original market share in the RPG hobby and its position as the founder of the RPG hobby, should we, as RPG players have been worrying and criticizing how TSR was being run?

Since you can't really answer why the annual report is argued and discussed in detail by people, half of which are admitted ex-GW players, must mean that there is something significant that we will learn from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Tell me again: why do we care? Do Flames of War players research Gale Force 9's annual reports? or Magic players Hasbro?

or os it just anorher facet of the hipster movement to hate GW enough to obsess over every detail of the company?

notprop wrote:Flames of War and Gale Force 9 are both BattleFront, so no comparison there.

/pedant

PWND !

If the best you have to contribute is a simplistic chat response, it may be best to keep quiet while the adults are talking. Even the posting rules tell you that.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Then answer my question: would monitoring TSR's finances have kept them in business?

Do you know, I actually started to play this game, I had most of my reply written out, then I realised that it is totally irrelevant to the topic, so I stopped.

So, you can't really tell anyone why we are so concerned about how GW is doing? How many other hobby groups do the same? Considering TSR's original market share in the RPG hobby and its position as the founder of the RPG hobby, should we, as RPG players have been worrying and criticizing how TSR was being run?

Since you can't really answer why the annual report is argued and discussed in detail by people, half of which are admitted ex-GW players, must mean that there is something significant that we will learn from it.

Pay careful attention, this is important.

Not can't. Won't.

So discussing GW financial records just ends up being wannabe CEO/CFOs complaing that they could manage the hobby better and the overall theme of OMGGWISSOOOOSTUPID, right?

I know car enthusiasts who know or care less about their favorite brands than you purport to know about GW. So I guess those Pontiac fans dropped the ball in 2011, having never studied and discussed in detail the financial stupidity of the brand?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So discussing GW financial records just ends up being wannabe CEO/CFOs complaing that they could manage the hobby better and the overall theme of OMGGWISSOOOOSTUPID, right?

I know car enthusiasts who know or care less about their favorite brands than you purport to know about GW. So I guess those Pontiac fans dropped the ball in 2011, having never studied and discussed in detail the financial stupidity of the brand?

Probably the lamest waste of time ever is being "discussion police" where you go into threads you don't care about and tell people what they should and should not discuss.

.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So discussing GW financial records just ends up being wannabe CEO/CFOs complaing that they could manage the hobby better and the overall theme of OMGGWISSOOOOSTUPID, right?

I know car enthusiasts who know or care less about their favorite brands than you purport to know about GW. So I guess those Pontiac fans dropped the ball in 2011, having never studied and discussed in detail the financial stupidity of the brand?

I'm sorry people aren't discussing things in the way you think they should.

Perhaps you should go and tell those car enthusiasts how to have fun for a bit and let us get on with it?

People like to talk about things that are important to them or interest them. Some wargamers find the financial performance of the biggest player in the game noteworthy and wish to discuss it. Inevitably some people will think some things should be done differently, and will say so, others will then disagree.

What's the big deal?

Get over yourself.

I'm assuming Solo is being held hostage and forced, at gunpoint, to read and post in threads that discuss things he doesn't care about.

 RatBot wrote:
I'm assuming Solo is being held hostage and forced, at gunpoint, to read and post in threads that discuss things he doesn't care about.

OMG, what if you're right?

Solo, if that's the case, post two, one line, abrasive replies that contribute nothing to the ongoing conversation in threads that you don't then follow up, and we'll send help!