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Trystis wrote:

No, no, no. You're fixated on what the rule DOES. I'm questioning why you think you have the rule in the first place. Like... you wouldn't have a Space Marine Captain make a Kiss of Death attack. You'd never even bother to see if he's equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss because his attacks never gain the Kiss of Death special rule. At what point does the Solitaire's attacks gain the Kiss of Death special rule?

I haven't discussed what the rule does at all. Not even a little. The Kiss of Death "does" make an attack instant death on the roll of a 6 to wound.

The solitaire never has the Kiss of Death rule as I have repeatedly indicated. One of his attacks becomes a Kiss of Death attack. There is no need for me to see if he is equipped with it. That isn't a required step, or even a step that exists. Why would a Space Marine Captain be able to make a Kiss of Death attack? Is he equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? Does it say any where on his information that he has one? Did you purchase one for him somehow? No, then he one of his attack would not be converted to a Kiss of Death. Is the solitaire equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? It's listed under wargear with the rest of his equipment. Then one of his attacks will be a Kiss of Death when he is close combat automatically, per the rule for that item.

The attempts to interpret this differently all have required that you ignore some aspect of an advanced rule in order to dogmatically apply a basic rule.

Again, we know WHAT the rule does. Why does the Solitaire's attacks have the rule? When do the attacks gain the rule? They have to. You can't use rules you don't have. What mechanism are you using to cause the Solitaire's attacks to gain this rule? If your contention is that the Kiss of Death text auto permits itself, then you have to also obey the no mixing and matching which would forbid you from ever attacking with the Harlequin's Caress.

So which is more likely... you can pick which weapon to attack with, but only get to use that weapon's rules...

OR

Special rules can self permit and the Solitaire can NEVER attack with the Harlequin's Caress?

He has that rule on his attacks because of a war gear option. his attacks gain that rule when he attacks.

 Kriswall wrote:

Trystis wrote:

No, no, no. You're fixated on what the rule DOES. I'm questioning why you think you have the rule in the first place. Like... you wouldn't have a Space Marine Captain make a Kiss of Death attack. You'd never even bother to see if he's equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss because his attacks never gain the Kiss of Death special rule. At what point does the Solitaire's attacks gain the Kiss of Death special rule?

I haven't discussed what the rule does at all. Not even a little. The Kiss of Death "does" make an attack instant death on the roll of a 6 to wound.

The solitaire never has the Kiss of Death rule as I have repeatedly indicated. One of his attacks becomes a Kiss of Death attack. There is no need for me to see if he is equipped with it. That isn't a required step, or even a step that exists. Why would a Space Marine Captain be able to make a Kiss of Death attack? Is he equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? Does it say any where on his information that he has one? Did you purchase one for him somehow? No, then he one of his attack would not be converted to a Kiss of Death. Is the solitaire equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? It's listed under wargear with the rest of his equipment. Then one of his attacks will be a Kiss of Death when he is close combat automatically, per the rule for that item.

The attempts to interpret this differently all have required that you ignore some aspect of an advanced rule in order to dogmatically apply a basic rule.

Again, we know WHAT the rule does. Why does the Solitaire's attacks have the rule? When do the attacks gain the rule? They have to. You can't use rules you don't have. What mechanism are you using to cause the Solitaire's attacks to gain this rule? If your contention is that the Kiss of Death text auto permits itself, then you have to also obey the no mixing and matching which would forbid you from ever attacking with the Harlequin's Caress.

So which is more likely... you can pick which weapon to attack with, but only get to use that weapon's rules...

OR

Special rules can self permit and the Solitaire can NEVER attack with the Harlequin's Caress?

As mentioned in my previous post that you may of failed to notice.

The Harlequin's Kiss has the Kiss of Death rule.
The model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss has to follow the rules for the Harlequin's Kiss.
That rule states that when in close combat of the attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack.

I can chose to use the Caress because nothing restricts me from choosing it, after its chosen the Kiss's rules will still take effect because its rules require it too. I don't need to obey the "the no mixing and matching" rule as it is a basic rule because that is overridden by the advanced rule provided by the Harlequin's Kiss.

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (like solitaire is) makes its close combat attacks (when the solitaire makes its close combat attack), one of its (the solitaire's) attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..."

It doesn't restrict my choice in any way, so I can chose any weapon I want.
The rule for the kiss provides what is necessary for it to occur - That a Harlequin's Kiss is equipped
It doesn't require it to be used
When it takes effect - When a model makes it close combat attack
How the special rule is applied - One the model's attack will be a Kiss of Death
The attack doesn't need to be made with the Kiss. Thats something that is being interjected based off a basic rule that has been shown multiple times not to apply because of the phrasing of the advanced rule.




Edited for clarity, and to better answer Kriswall

NauticalKendall wrote:
He has that rule on his attacks because of a war gear option. his attacks gain that rule when he attacks.

Hit attacks gain that rule when he attacks with that weapon... which he is not doing. So, again, why does the Solitaire gain that rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trystis wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Trystis wrote:

No, no, no. You're fixated on what the rule DOES. I'm questioning why you think you have the rule in the first place. Like... you wouldn't have a Space Marine Captain make a Kiss of Death attack. You'd never even bother to see if he's equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss because his attacks never gain the Kiss of Death special rule. At what point does the Solitaire's attacks gain the Kiss of Death special rule?

I haven't discussed what the rule does at all. Not even a little. The Kiss of Death "does" make an attack instant death on the roll of a 6 to wound.

The solitaire never has the Kiss of Death rule as I have repeatedly indicated. One of his attacks becomes a Kiss of Death attack. There is no need for me to see if he is equipped with it. That isn't a required step, or even a step that exists. Why would a Space Marine Captain be able to make a Kiss of Death attack? Is he equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? Does it say any where on his information that he has one? Did you purchase one for him somehow? No, then he one of his attack would not be converted to a Kiss of Death. Is the solitaire equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? It's listed under wargear with the rest of his equipment. Then one of his attacks will be a Kiss of Death when he is close combat automatically, per the rule for that item.

The attempts to interpret this differently all have required that you ignore some aspect of an advanced rule in order to dogmatically apply a basic rule.

Again, we know WHAT the rule does. Why does the Solitaire's attacks have the rule? When do the attacks gain the rule? They have to. You can't use rules you don't have. What mechanism are you using to cause the Solitaire's attacks to gain this rule? If your contention is that the Kiss of Death text auto permits itself, then you have to also obey the no mixing and matching which would forbid you from ever attacking with the Harlequin's Caress.

So which is more likely... you can pick which weapon to attack with, but only get to use that weapon's rules...

OR

Special rules can self permit and the Solitaire can NEVER attack with the Harlequin's Caress?

As mentioned in my previous post that you may of failed to notice.

The Harlequin's Kiss has the Kiss of Death rule.
The model equipped with Harlequin's Kiss has to follow the rules for the Harlequin's Kiss.
That rule states that when in close combat of the attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack.

I don't need to obey the "the no mixing and matching" rule as it is a basic rule because that is overridden by the advanced rule provided by the Harlequin's Kiss.

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (like solitaire is) makes its close combat attacks (when the solitaire makes its close combat attack), one of its (the solitaire's) attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..."

The rule for the kiss provides what is necessary for it to occur - That a Harlequin's Kiss is equipped
When it takes effect - When a model makes it close combat attack
How the special rule is applied - One the attack will be a Kiss of Death

So, you're unable to show any evidence that the Solitaire's attacks gain the special rule? I know what it does. You don't have to keep quoting me the rules text. I don't see that the attacks ever gain the rule. If I attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, my attacks get the Kiss of Death rule. If I don't attack with the Harlequin's Kiss... why are my attacks getting the Kiss of Death rule.

We all know WHAT it does. How and why are you invoking it?

Back to the Captain Power Fist/Lightning Claw example. Do you understand that when the Captain attacks with the Power Fist that he's not ever gaining the Shred rule from the Lightning Claw? You seem to think he gains all the rules, but can't use Shred since he's not attacking with a weapon with the Shred rule. That's not it at all. He can't use Shred because his attacks never gained it. This is a subtle, but extremely important difference.

There is a difference between not being able to use a rule because you haven't fulfilled its requirements and not having the rule.

He gains it because he is equipped with it.

Just like a sword that gives fearless to a model doesn't need to attack with it to gain the fearless rule, even if he has 4800 other weapons.

Im fairly sure shred says something along the lines of "attacks with the weapon gain shred" not the models attacks gain shred. making it different.

 Kriswall wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
He has that rule on his attacks because of a war gear option. his attacks gain that rule when he attacks.

Hit attacks gain that rule when he attacks with that weapon... which he is not doing. So, again, why does the Solitaire gain that rule?

It doesn't say that. You are once again ignoring the kiss's rule.

It says:

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..."

That means that a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss will make a Kiss of Death attack when in close combat. You are interjecting any thing beyond that.

Trystis wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
He has that rule on his attacks because of a war gear option. his attacks gain that rule when he attacks.

Hit attacks gain that rule when he attacks with that weapon... which he is not doing. So, again, why does the Solitaire gain that rule?

It doesn't say that. You are once again ignoring the kiss's rule.

It says:

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..."

That means that a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss will make a Kiss of Death attack when in close combat. You are interjecting any thing beyond that.

at this point I believe he's just being difficult for difficulties sake.

So, you're unable to show any evidence that the Solitaire's attacks gain the special rule? I know what it does. You don't have to keep quoting me the rules text. I don't see that the attacks ever gain the rule. If I attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, my attacks get the Kiss of Death rule. If I don't attack with the Harlequin's Kiss... why are my attacks getting the Kiss of Death rule.

We all know WHAT it does. How and why are you invoking it?

Back to the Captain Power Fist/Lightning Claw example. Do you understand that when the Captain attacks with the Power Fist that he's not ever gaining the Shred rule from the Lightning Claw? You seem to think he gains all the rules, but can't use Shred since he's not attacking with a weapon with the Shred rule. That's not it at all. He can't use Shred because his attacks never gained it. This is a subtle, but extremely important difference.

There is a difference between not being able to use a rule because you haven't fulfilled its requirements and not having the rule.

I keep quoting the rule text because you are blatantly ignoring it

If you attack with the Caress you still get the kiss of death because it the Kiss is still equipped. Again, the solitaire doesn't have the rule. The Kiss does. That rule will make one of the solitaires attacks a Kiss of Death because it is equipped.
.
The rules for power fist and lighting claws are phrased differently than the Kiss. Because of that they don't work the same way, and are not a valid comparison.

Trystis wrote:

So, you're unable to show any evidence that the Solitaire's attacks gain the special rule? I know what it does. You don't have to keep quoting me the rules text. I don't see that the attacks ever gain the rule. If I attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, my attacks get the Kiss of Death rule. If I don't attack with the Harlequin's Kiss... why are my attacks getting the Kiss of Death rule.

We all know WHAT it does. How and why are you invoking it?

Back to the Captain Power Fist/Lightning Claw example. Do you understand that when the Captain attacks with the Power Fist that he's not ever gaining the Shred rule from the Lightning Claw? You seem to think he gains all the rules, but can't use Shred since he's not attacking with a weapon with the Shred rule. That's not it at all. He can't use Shred because his attacks never gained it. This is a subtle, but extremely important difference.

There is a difference between not being able to use a rule because you haven't fulfilled its requirements and not having the rule.

I keep quoting the rule text because you are blatantly ignoring it

If you attack with the Caress you still get the kiss of death because it the Kiss is still equipped. Again, the solitaire doesn't have the rule. The Kiss does. That rule will make one of the solitaires attacks a Kiss of Death because it is equipped.
.
The rules for power fist and lighting claws are phrased differently than the Kiss. Because of that they don't work the same way, and are not a valid comparison.

So that I understand, your contention is that the Captain's attacks would gain the Shred special rule when attacking with the Powerfist, but Shred wouldn't really do anything since the requirement to be attacking with a weapon with the Shred special rule wouldn't be met?

 Kriswall wrote:

Trystis wrote:

So, you're unable to show any evidence that the Solitaire's attacks gain the special rule? I know what it does. You don't have to keep quoting me the rules text. I don't see that the attacks ever gain the rule. If I attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, my attacks get the Kiss of Death rule. If I don't attack with the Harlequin's Kiss... why are my attacks getting the Kiss of Death rule.

We all know WHAT it does. How and why are you invoking it?

Back to the Captain Power Fist/Lightning Claw example. Do you understand that when the Captain attacks with the Power Fist that he's not ever gaining the Shred rule from the Lightning Claw? You seem to think he gains all the rules, but can't use Shred since he's not attacking with a weapon with the Shred rule. That's not it at all. He can't use Shred because his attacks never gained it. This is a subtle, but extremely important difference.

There is a difference between not being able to use a rule because you haven't fulfilled its requirements and not having the rule.

I keep quoting the rule text because you are blatantly ignoring it

If you attack with the Caress you still get the kiss of death because it the Kiss is still equipped. Again, the solitaire doesn't have the rule. The Kiss does. That rule will make one of the solitaires attacks a Kiss of Death because it is equipped.
.
The rules for power fist and lighting claws are phrased differently than the Kiss. Because of that they don't work the same way, and are not a valid comparison.

So that I understand, your contention is that the Captain's attacks would gain the Shred special rule when attacking with the Powerfist, but Shred wouldn't really do anything since the requirement to be attacking with a weapon with the Shred special rule wouldn't be met?

The rule for shred applies only to one weapon, as the requirement for shred as per rule is it is only available to the weapon. You cannot mix the abilities of two weapons. The Kiss ability isnt limited to the weapon, so therefore is freely used as long as it is equipped.

A weapon with instant death, can only cause instant death if that weapon is used. A weapon that grants a 2+ invulnerable save will always grant a 2+ invunerable save to the weilder, regardless of all the other weapons he has or has attacked with.

Pretty simple I think.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Trystis wrote:

So, you're unable to show any evidence that the Solitaire's attacks gain the special rule? I know what it does. You don't have to keep quoting me the rules text. I don't see that the attacks ever gain the rule. If I attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, my attacks get the Kiss of Death rule. If I don't attack with the Harlequin's Kiss... why are my attacks getting the Kiss of Death rule.

We all know WHAT it does. How and why are you invoking it?

Back to the Captain Power Fist/Lightning Claw example. Do you understand that when the Captain attacks with the Power Fist that he's not ever gaining the Shred rule from the Lightning Claw? You seem to think he gains all the rules, but can't use Shred since he's not attacking with a weapon with the Shred rule. That's not it at all. He can't use Shred because his attacks never gained it. This is a subtle, but extremely important difference.

There is a difference between not being able to use a rule because you haven't fulfilled its requirements and not having the rule.

I keep quoting the rule text because you are blatantly ignoring it

If you attack with the Caress you still get the kiss of death because it the Kiss is still equipped. Again, the solitaire doesn't have the rule. The Kiss does. That rule will make one of the solitaires attacks a Kiss of Death because it is equipped.
.
The rules for power fist and lighting claws are phrased differently than the Kiss. Because of that they don't work the same way, and are not a valid comparison.

So that I understand, your contention is that the Captain's attacks would gain the Shred special rule when attacking with the Powerfist, but Shred wouldn't really do anything since the requirement to be attacking with a weapon with the Shred special rule wouldn't be met?

The rule for shred applies only to one weapon, as the requirement for shred as per rule is it is only available to the weapon. You cannot mix the abilities of two weapons. The Kiss ability isnt limited to the weapon, so therefore is freely used as long as it is equipped.

A weapon with instant death, can only cause instant death if that weapon is used. A weapon that grants a 2+ invulnerable save will always grant a 2+ invunerable save to the weilder, regardless of all the other weapons he has or has attacked with.

Pretty simple I think.

The restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities doesn't say "no mixing and matching of SOME weapon abilities". What is your reason for not counting KoD as a weapon ability? Is it an ability the weapon has? Yes or no? I would say yes as it's listed right there in the profile.

And a weapon that grants a 2+ invulnerable save will cease to do so during a Fight Sub-Phase in which the attacker attacks with a different weapon. He loses the 2+ invuln as keeping it would be mixing and matching weapon abilities.

No I always (and most people for that matter) took the mixing of abilities as not being able to use rules tied to the weapon alongside other weapons. So no taking the highest strength and lowest AP for your attacks. No taking instant death from one weapon, and adding it to a weapon with shred etc.

But that invulnerable save? Well thats not mixing abilities, thats the abilities effecting the user not the weapon. Does shred effect the user? No, it effects the weapon. Does kiss of death effect the user yes, it does not effect the weapon.

Abilities of the weapon are different from the abilities of the user. the user is effected by his stats and abilities that can be granted by wargear and weapons or in his base profile. Some weapons are effected by stats and abilities that can be granted by wargear and weapons or in its base profile.

Kiss of death clearly is not a weapon ability, but a user ability, since it directly effects the users attacks, and has no effect on the weapon attacks. Like a 2+ invulnerable save.

 Swastakowey wrote:
No I always (and most people for that matter) took the mixing of abilities as not being able to use rules tied to the weapon alongside other weapons. So no taking the highest strength and lowest AP for your attacks. No taking instant death from one weapon, and adding it to a weapon with shred etc.

But that invulnerable save? Well thats not mixing abilities, thats the abilities effecting the user not the weapon. Does shred effect the user? No, it effects the weapon. Does kiss of death effect the user yes, it does not effect the weapon.

Abilities of the weapon are different from the abilities of the user. the user is effected by his stats and abilities that can be granted by wargear and weapons or in his base profile. Some weapons are effected by stats and abilities that can be granted by wargear and weapons or in its base profile.

Kiss of death clearly is not a weapon ability, but a user ability, since it directly effects the users attacks, and has no effect on the weapon attacks. Like a 2+ invulnerable save.

So, you're adding an arbitrary distinction and dividing weapon abilities into those that are bound by the core restriction on mixing and matching and those that aren't? Can you cite the rules telling you to do so? I'd like to read them and make my own decision as to why you're allowed to follow the rules for some abilities and not others.

The restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities doesn't say "no mixing and matching of SOME weapon abilities". What is your reason for not counting KoD as a weapon ability? Is it an ability the weapon has? Yes or no? I would say yes as it's listed right there in the profile.

I have always counted the Kiss's rule as a weapon ability.

You are correct. I must choose between the two, or three if I purchased Haywire Grenades. So I pick the Caress, and will benefit from its special rule.
The Harlequin's Kiss has its own profile and weapon ability, most of the time I would not be able to use either because I didn't choose it.
However, the Harlequins special rule is based on it being equipped, not on it being used. This rule makes one of my attacks a Kiss of Death, RAW. This happens regardless of the weapon I chose, and overrides the restriction on mixing and matching weapon because it is an advance rule.

The lightning claw provides the Shred rule, the shred rule states that the model have it, or that you attack with melee weapon that has it. The power fist has its own weapon profile. Neither is based off being equipped. Neither of these are comparable to how the Kiss works.

So, you're adding an arbitrary distinction and dividing weapon abilities into those that are bound by the core restriction on mixing and matching and those that aren't? Can you cite the rules telling you to do so? I'd like to read them and make my own decision as to why you're allowed to follow the rules for some abilities and not others.

These decisions are not being made arbitrarily, they are based on the phrasing for the items. Each Item has its own rules. You are attempting to replace an items specific rules with a generic rule that usually applies. The problem is it doesn't always. Thats why many items have specific phrasing in their rules, to override the generic rule.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No I always (and most people for that matter) took the mixing of abilities as not being able to use rules tied to the weapon alongside other weapons. So no taking the highest strength and lowest AP for your attacks. No taking instant death from one weapon, and adding it to a weapon with shred etc.

But that invulnerable save? Well thats not mixing abilities, thats the abilities effecting the user not the weapon. Does shred effect the user? No, it effects the weapon. Does kiss of death effect the user yes, it does not effect the weapon.

Abilities of the weapon are different from the abilities of the user. the user is effected by his stats and abilities that can be granted by wargear and weapons or in his base profile. Some weapons are effected by stats and abilities that can be granted by wargear and weapons or in its base profile.

Kiss of death clearly is not a weapon ability, but a user ability, since it directly effects the users attacks, and has no effect on the weapon attacks. Like a 2+ invulnerable save.

So, you're adding an arbitrary distinction and dividing weapon abilities into those that are bound by the core restriction on mixing and matching and those that aren't? Can you cite the rules telling you to do so? I'd like to read them and make my own decision as to why you're allowed to follow the rules for some abilities and not others.

Because the abilities of weapons are whats being restricted? A weapons abilities are what I would assume effects the weapons profile. Do not weapons and users have different profiles? and abilities that effect each one? Or have I been confusing weapons and users as being the same?

Then its safe to assume, that you cannot mix abilities of weapons (like shred etc) but can keep user abilities as a constant because there is no rule saying you cant mix the abilities granted to a user.

I will get exact working from my rule book, but I always thought this was the case. Given abilities effect different profiles, and everyone agrees we cannot mix profiles.

Can anyone confirm if there is a point at which RAI are so clear, that they can be interpreted as RAW?

Since the Kiss rule says 1 attack WILL BE the Kiss of Death anytime the wielder attacks, then why would the Solitaire also have the Caress?

I know that GW makes some wonky rules sometimes, but when a rules says you MUST do something, why would they give you the option to do another thing?

A ha! GW intends us to be able to use both!

As a great Vulcan once said: "Quite logical Captian"

Kriswall, let me ask you this:

How would you word the rules in order to work this where you'd gain it's Kiss of Death rule, while keeping a melee weapon profile on the Harlequin's Kiss in order for it to be usable by regular Harlequins (they'd only ever get one or the other), and for the bonus melee attack from having two melee weapons?

You're making the same arguments time and time again. People are either into your idea or not. Why are you still arguing it? Legitimately want to know.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Kriswall, let me ask you this:

How would you word the rules in order to work this where you'd gain it's Kiss of Death rule, while keeping a melee weapon profile on the Harlequin's Kiss in order for it to be usable by regular Harlequins (they'd only ever get one or the other), and for the bonus melee attack from having two melee weapons?

You're making the same arguments time and time again. People are either into your idea or not. Why are you still arguing it? Legitimately want to know.

I would need to see wording such as "this special rule may be used even when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss". I would need something to specifically override the core restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities.

Or better yet, make it a non Weapon piece of wargear like the Eldar Mandiblasters.

I continue to post partly because I've been working on some very repetitive crap at work and am bored out of my mind. Partly because I genuinely think this is wrong and sets a dangerous precedent. If people are willing to apply a special rule to a model's attacks without the attacks having had gained the rule... what's next? FlingitNow seriously said he thinks Codex: Eldar Harlequin's should benefit from Codex: Harlequin rules. It's a natural extension of not caring which rules a model or its attacks actually have.

I also think there's a fundamental lack of understanding between a model having a rule, a weapon having a rule and a model's attacks having a rule.

The difference between a Lightning claw's shred and the kiss of death is entirely in its wording.

Shred says when making attacks using the equipped weapon, while kiss of death says while having the equipped weapon your attacks benefit from this rule.


Codex:Eldar CLEARLY do not have Codex:Harlequin rules. But the Harlequins codex kiss of death is clearly giving permission to make that special attack regardless of it being attacks made with that weapon.


and you've said it now, you're arguing because you are bored. And because of that you are making a problem out of something that is clearly written choosing to specifically ignore how the kiss of death is written and allowing people to do what it does.

Case Solved, troll is trollin.

Don't put words in my mouth. I continue to post because I'm bored. I post in the first place because I enjoy debate and genuinely think I'm right.

I still have yet to see anyone post permission for the Solitaire's attacks to gain the KoD special rule that isn't circular logic.

Why do the attacks have KoD? Because KoD says so?

You're justifying GAINING the rule with already having the rule. This obviously doesn't work as you'd have to Gain it BEFORE having it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your logic require that you HAVE it before gaining it.

Can anyone confirm if there is a point at which RAI are so clear, that they can be interpreted as RAW?

Yes but there are many on here that like to argue for the sake of it. They contend it takes magical powers to understand anything beyond the purely literal. They completely fail to understand the basic reason language exists and believe inanimate objects can are capable of creating rules (which are just a list of thoughts and ideas).

Fortunately here RaW matches up with RaI on the Harlequins Kiss for codex Harlequins. Though you need to fix a few interactions with other codexes (like Codex Eldar).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
Don't put words in my mouth. I continue to post because I'm bored. I post in the first place because I enjoy debate and genuinely think I'm right.

I still have yet to see anyone post permission for the Solitaire's attacks to gain the KoD special rule that isn't circular logic.

Why do the attacks have KoD? Because KoD says so?

You're justifying GAINING the rule with already having the rule. This obviously doesn't work as you'd have to Gain it BEFORE having it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your logic require that you HAVE it before gaining it.

I don't think you understand circular logic. The question is do we have the Kiss of Death rule? Let's check the rules, well none of the rules outside of the KoD give give us KoD (this we can all agree on). So we check KoD it tells us yes we do have it. This is not circular logic we are checking a rule as we may check any rule we want to at anytime unless you have a restriction against reading certain rules.

Your logic is circular as you use your conclusion as a premise. Your premises are as follows:
1) No rule outside of KoD gives us KoD
2) We can't check KoD because we don't have it

Conclusion: we don't have KoD

That is the very definition of circular logic. So please explain why KoD doesn't apply without using circular logic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For completeness here are my 3 premises please attack them at will:

1) I have general permission to read the rules.
2) No rule outside of KoD gives me permission to have the KoD rule.
3) KoD says: Whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes his attacks in close combat, one of those attacks will be a Kiss of death attack.

Conclusion: Whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes his attacks in close combat, one of those attacks will be a Kiss of death attack.

 Kriswall wrote:
Don't put words in my mouth. I continue to post because I'm bored. I post in the first place because I enjoy debate and genuinely think I'm right.

I still have yet to see anyone post permission for the Solitaire's attacks to gain the KoD special rule that isn't circular logic.

Why do the attacks have KoD? Because KoD says so?

You're justifying GAINING the rule with already having the rule. This obviously doesn't work as you'd have to Gain it BEFORE having it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your logic require that you HAVE it before gaining it.

Its not at all circular, its quite linear. You don't need an additional rule to state how a rule works, that logic would require multiple rules for every rule. You would need a rule to tell you when to apply it and then a rule of what it does.

The Harlequin's Kiss has the Kiss of Death rule. The Kiss of Death rule states how it works. It provides the conditions necessary for it to take effect, when it takes effect, and what it does when it takes effect. - This same method is on many rules. Including the lightning claw you brought up earlier. The lightning claw has the Shred rule. The Shred rule tells you the condition necessary for it to take effect (model has it, or an attack made with a weapon with the rule), when it takes effect, and what it does. The difference is how the rules are stated. They both provide detailed instructions for how they work.

The Kiss of Death rule is provided by the Harlequin's Kiss. Just like Shred is provided by using a Lightning claw. There is no real debate about where the rule comes from other than the one you are trying to invent, but even if you were successful it could be applied to like every weapon rule, maybe many more beyond that. The debate is about how the rule is applied. I.E. whether the solitaire gets the Kiss of Death attack when using the Caress.

My point is that the Solitaire does get to use both.

As you have mentioned in numerous posts you must choose which melee weapon to use. So I can choose to use the Caress, no rule on Kiss or the Solitaire prevents me from choosing it. The Harlequin's Kiss has its own profile and weapon ability, most of the time I would not be able to use either because I didn't choose it. However, the Harlequin's Kiss special rule is based on it being equipped, not on it being used. This rule makes one of the solitaire's attacks a Kiss of Death. This happens regardless of the weapon I choose, and overrides the restriction on mixing and matching weapon because it is an advance rule.

You try to counter this by stating you need specific permission to not have to follow the no mix match thing. This isn't true though. The Kiss is an advanced rule with specific instructions to follow. You can't always follow the Kiss's rule while obeying the no mix and match rule. The core rule book recognizes these situations will happen sometimes and provides the necessary instructions for how to handle it, which are, that the advanced rule trumps the core rule. None of the points you make are challenging this, and are mostly serving to demonstrate that is the most valid argument. I encourage you to make additional, but different points if you would like to disprove it.

 Kriswall wrote:


I would need to see wording such as "this special rule may be used even when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss". I would need something to specifically override the core restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities.

They have specific wording when the rule requires the weapon to strike. In fact, as we've pointed out multiple times, that wording is already used on the Caress. If they wanted your way to be how to play it, they could have easily worded it the same way the Harlequin's Caress "Caress of Death" rule is worded.

Or better yet, make it a non Weapon piece of wargear like the Eldar Mandiblasters.

But it is a melee weapon. We have rules for melee weapons for several reasons. One of which is that being equipped with two melee weapons grants +1 Attack. Also, this is the only model I'm aware of that has it and another Harlequin weapon. Removing the melee weapon component to this piece of wargear would mean regular Harlequins with it wouldn't gain +1 Attack if using it and a pistol.

You're the one that's getting the dangerous misunderstanding of the rules in effect, if you ask me. You're deliberately applying restrictions to things that defy the restrictions. RAW = read the rules as they are f***ing written. Specific rules always take precedent over base rules. We're given how to work a piece of wargear, in it's own rules, in a way that makes sense, in concise language. Quit applying things that no longer apply, man.

Considering you gain +1A for having two melee weapons, just think of that +1A being your Kiss of Death attack from the singular strike it'd be making when being dual-wielded by the Solitaire, if you need a fluff reason to be okay with it.

It doesn't say in the rule you have to strike with the weapon to "gain" the rule. Prince Yriel always has to reroll his 6's on invulnerable saves because of the Spear of Twilight. Or are you seriously going to say that's only when he strikes with that weapon, and therefore it wouldn't apply to shooting attacks? Because come on dude. Just come on. I'm struggling to find words at this point.

And don't even start with the Slippery Slope logical fallacy. You've brought it up before so I just want to nip that in the bud now. The reason you can't use Armorbane when striking with the Lightning Claw of a LC/Chainfist terminator captain is because Armorbane says if the model "is attacking with a melee weapon that has this rule", so we can apply logic and understanding of the English language to gather Armorbane, on a weapon, is just for that specific weapon. Same thing with Shred if you switch up which weapon is striking. There's a clear line of delineation.

As far as gaining rules from Melee weapons, even if not using them, I would like to point out the Shard of Anaris in the Eldar Codex.

In addition to what it does in Melee, it also grants Fearless. If you have to use a weapon to gain all of its effects, you could NEVER actually claim Fearless.

Since Fearless is used at the end of any phase when enough casualties have been taken or lost combat (among other instances), you could not actually claim Fearless because you are not at a step in which blows are being struck.

Therefore, there is precedence for the Kiss to give its special attack. In fact, the Kiss/Embrace are not optional. Both state that they MUST be used. So why does the Solitare have both the Kiss & Caress?

If you required specific permission to read a rule in order to have the ability to use it, I wouldn't be able to read my codebook without getting verbal permission from the design team to go ahead and read it.

The people who are debating on the side of the kiss of death rule being allowed have shown numerous examples of past practice in regards to similar special abilities attached to melee weapons, have shown the way the core rules state how to deal with advanced rules, and whether or not advanced rule would take precedent over general rules.

Those against simply keep stating an obviously overruled basic rule as the entire premise for their debate platform. Then they have tried to infer some sort of special reason why this BASIC rule is inviolable, when the core book it comes from specifically states otherwise.

How did this obvious case of advanced v. basic become a 19 page thread?

I give up. You guys enjoy your HIWPI. Until such time as GW issues an FAQ or Errata, I will continue to believe that a model or its attacks need to actually have a special rule before being able to use said special rule.

 Kriswall wrote:
I give up. You guys enjoy your HIWPI. Until such time as GW issues an FAQ or Errata, I will continue to believe that a model or its attacks need to actually have a special rule before being able to use said special rule.

I think you have lost . Impressive fight though.

I personally think you arent wrong, just more wrong than we are. But when the rules support us along with intent, I think it puts the pro group ahead. You have one rule that you keep reffering too, but it shown many times to not quite work the way you describe. Your interpretation also means that many questions are raised, such as:

Do I gain multiple weapon benefits when not fighting?
Must I declare what weapon I am using every fight subphase?
How often can I declare what weapons are equipped and when?
Do I need to tell my opponent if I have equipped my sword of saving throws before he shoots me, or can I just assume I equipped it for that shot?
Can I change gear part way through getting shot? To take advantage of a invulnerable save and a feel no pain?

I mean how far are you taking this "must use one weapon and its effects only" thing? It raises more questions and answers nothing.

Its pretty clear by the rules, you cannot mix weapon profiles, but the user profile can mix with the weapon profile. So anything that effects the user is compiled into one group, and the weapons are all separate. You chose the weapon you wish to mix with the user profile (which is made up of all the gear and rules he has including weapons) and then sort out the attack from there. Like with any other attack. Hand weapons give your profile +1 attack. This means you can use a power sword AND a hand weapon, because one effects the user profile and one has a weapon profile.

NOW the real question here is, is the kiss a User rule or a weapon rule.

It in no way effects the weapon as per rule, but affects the user. To me this makes it compatible with the Caress or any other attack. But I believe that is what is up for debate.

Swastakowey, does KoD affect a models attacks?

 Kriswall wrote:
I give up. You guys enjoy your HIWPI. Until such time as GW issues an FAQ or Errata, I will continue to believe that a model or its attacks need to actually have a special rule before being able to use said special rule.

Cool you play your house rules if your opponent agrees. I'll play the RaW and RaI which fortunately match up in this case so why you'd make up your own rules is baffling, but that is your choice.

 Happyjew wrote:
Swastakowey, does KoD affect a models attacks?

Yes I think it does.

It says "when a model makes its attacks" not "when a model attacks with this weapon or a model using this weapon gains the kiss of death" etc

So I think it gives the model Kiss of death, not the weapon.