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The problem with the CSM kit is other units have depended on it as a base. Recent releases have reduced this. But until GW produce a stand alone Emperors children/Noise Marines kit I doubt they are going to replace it.
GoatboyBeta wrote: The problem with the CSM kit is other units have depended on it as a base. Recent releases have reduced this. But until GW produce a stand alone Emperors children/Noise Marines kit I doubt they are going to replace it.
you can update chaos marine kits just fine so long as you don't go too over board. bu CSMs have a few options these days, as the MK IV and MK III kits aren't a bad thing, I've got some MK IIIs that I'm thinking will eaither be black Legion or Iron warriors. (I'm torn between the two so am gonna wait for the chaos dex to hit and make up my mind)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
GoatboyBeta wrote: The problem with the CSM kit is other units have depended on it as a base. Recent releases have reduced this. But until GW produce a stand alone Emperors children/Noise Marines kit I doubt they are going to replace it.
you can update chaos marine kits just fine so long as you don't go too over board. bu CSMs have a few options these days, as the MK IV and MK III kits aren't a bad thing, I've got some MK IIIs that I'm thinking will eaither be black Legion or Iron warriors. (I'm torn between the two so am gonna wait for the chaos dex to hit and make up my mind)
Honestly, if they release a Noise Marine upgrade sprue and pack it in the Mk III or Mk IV box, I think a lot of people would be happy. Those are great base kits that convert easily. Hell, they could still use one or two of the sprues and replace the remaining ones and make a good Chaos Space Marine kit out of it.
Kanluwen wrote: They look like upsized grenade launchers, in my opinion.
Yeah, but you though the leaked primaris marines were made of procreate, so...
#TeamRealRemembers
Actually, I thought they were converted.
But hey. If you want to keep bringing up things like that, more power to you. Just means you'll get ignored.
Well, it was a joke, but I will keep in mind in the future that you get really bent out of shape when people remind you that you were wrong about something.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
I thought this post nicely summed up the major issues with Marines and likely what will happen as CSM have increasingly important Legion Sub-factions.
]
ross-128 wrote: Well from the looks of things, Space Marine players (and to some extent, GW themselves) seem to have some expectations for Space Marines that are... difficult to meet.
1: Named chapters are generally expected to be defined by advantages over generic Marines, disadvantages to offset these differences are... discouraged.
2: Space Marine players want generic Space Marines to be on the strong end of the power curve. Which would in some ways be understandable, everyone wants to be above average (the mathematics of that aside) except for how it conflicts with #1.
3: Space Marines fight other Space Marines more often than other factions, due to their large share of the player base. While you might expect this to push them toward a 50/50 win rate, this falls apart when you consider #1 and #2: generic Space Marines lose to named Space Marines.
4: Space Marine players are most attached to old, long-standing model lines that form the core identity of the faction. Tactical marines, devastators, terminators, Rhinos, Predators. This would be fine, except...
5: GW wants to constantly crank out new Marine models, and wants people to buy all the latest shiny stuff. So Space Marine power creep tends to be more concentrated in their newest models that the players are reluctant to field. Other factions power creep too, but their power creep is better distributed between old and new models, because new model releases for other factions are relatively rare.
#1-3 together means that generic Space Marine win rates will be suppressed no matter how good Space Marines as a whole become, because they will mostly be fighting either other generic Space Marines, or named Space Marines that are better than them.
#4-5 means that a tournament player willing to go for the newest models, and put victory before faction identity can reliably win tournaments by chasing the latest releases. Meanwhile, the more typical Marine player who is trying to field the archetypical Marine force is left behind as GW introduces new models instead of reworking old models. This results in the Space Marines being a strong faction... unless you play them the way most people expect Space Marines to play.
In a way, they're victims of their own posterboy status.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mr Morden wrote: I thought this post nicely summed up the major issues with Marines and likely what will happen as CSM have increasingly important Legion Sub-factions.
Spoiler:
ross-128 wrote: Well from the looks of things, Space Marine players (and to some extent, GW themselves) seem to have some expectations for Space Marines that are... difficult to meet.
1: Named chapters are generally expected to be defined by advantages over generic Marines, disadvantages to offset these differences are... discouraged.
2: Space Marine players want generic Space Marines to be on the strong end of the power curve. Which would in some ways be understandable, everyone wants to be above average (the mathematics of that aside) except for how it conflicts with #1.
3: Space Marines fight other Space Marines more often than other factions, due to their large share of the player base. While you might expect this to push them toward a 50/50 win rate, this falls apart when you consider #1 and #2: generic Space Marines lose to named Space Marines.
4: Space Marine players are most attached to old, long-standing model lines that form the core identity of the faction. Tactical marines, devastators, terminators, Rhinos, Predators. This would be fine, except...
5: GW wants to constantly crank out new Marine models, and wants people to buy all the latest shiny stuff. So Space Marine power creep tends to be more concentrated in their newest models that the players are reluctant to field. Other factions power creep too, but their power creep is better distributed between old and new models, because new model releases for other factions are relatively rare.
#1-3 together means that generic Space Marine win rates will be suppressed no matter how good Space Marines as a whole become, because they will mostly be fighting either other generic Space Marines, or named Space Marines that are better than them.
#4-5 means that a tournament player willing to go for the newest models, and put victory before faction identity can reliably win tournaments by chasing the latest releases. Meanwhile, the more typical Marine player who is trying to field the archetypical Marine force is left behind as GW introduces new models instead of reworking old models. This results in the Space Marines being a strong faction... unless you play them the way most people expect Space Marines to play.
In a way, they're victims of their own posterboy status.
We will see how it plays out with CSMs buy I don't think they will have the same issues with their subfaction to the extent SMs are suggested to in the post you shared. At least for the Big 4 they are different enough to not be as impacted by the regular CSM army.
One big difference is that the legions are getting unique options from regular CSMs but also losing options from regular CSMs. This differs from named SM chapters where they all have the same units PLUS some unique ones. So you are losing out by playing generic chapters in some ways. This isn't quite the same for generic CSMs as they can pick and choose specialized cult units in addition to the more generic options.
Of course we'll have to see how it plays out with codex releases, and GW doesn't have the best track record for CSMs over the last decade, but as a long time Death Guard player, I'm happy to be getting new stuff, even if it means we lose some old options from regular CSMs. I just hope it isn't so much as to make the army a niche, one dimensional specialized force.
I guess over the next few months we'll have a pretty good idea of how GW plans to shape individual armies in 8th, and how specialized they will be.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honestly, if they release a Noise Marine upgrade sprue and pack it in the Mk III or Mk IV box, I think a lot of people would be happy. Those are great base kits that convert easily. Hell, they could still use one or two of the sprues and replace the remaining ones and make a good Chaos Space Marine kit out of it.
I would imagine it's more likely that EC and WE get their own kits like TS and DG.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honestly, if they release a Noise Marine upgrade sprue and pack it in the Mk III or Mk IV box, I think a lot of people would be happy. Those are great base kits that convert easily. Hell, they could still use one or two of the sprues and replace the remaining ones and make a good Chaos Space Marine kit out of it.
I would imagine it's more likely that EC and WE get their own kits like TS and DG.
More than likely. But if thry made it more like the Space Wolf Pack kit and had add-on sprues, it would definitely work.
warboss wrote: Has it been confirmed whether previously individual codex chapter will be folded into the vanilla marine book or stay separate? (Like Blood and dark Angels)
"Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those"
warboss wrote: Has it been confirmed whether previously individual codex chapter will be folded into the vanilla marine book or stay separate? (Like Blood and dark Angels)
Sadly it is the opposite.
I agree... and I say that as a primary Blood Angel and secondary Dark Angel player (and former Space Wolf player). I was hoping that marines would be all rolled into one double sized book to decrease the leap year in real time you see between supposedly roughly equivalent armies that leads to large imbalances.
This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.
They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.
Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.
Genuine questions, why did you buy all 5 books? Have you used every index in games already? Did you not expect codexes to come out? Are you upset that they are coming out too fast?
That's what I was wondering. I picked up just two of the codexes, figuring to use them for a while until the bugs get ironed out of the actual ones for my armies.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.
This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.
Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.
GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle
At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.
I really don't understand this complaint. Yes, if you want to buy every single piece of lore and memorabilia, it's going to cost something. But... you know that going into it. And if you need those books because you own every army, you've already probably spent 8x-10x that on models alone, so... is the cost of books really the thing to complain about here?
What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.
My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.
Damn GW for making me play 40K and spend my money on their product without any free will on my part!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/09 15:39:34
Not to mention that, if you want the complete rules for X-wing, you need to buy one example of every single release - because unit rules and upgrades only come as cards in the model releases.
I've not run the numbers, mostly because I'm scared to find out just how much I've spent on x-wing in the last 5 years, but you're easily talking over £500 to get *everything*:
11 waves of standard releases, at around £50 a wave (4 ships) - 550
5 "aces" boxes (imperial 1/2, scum, rebel . resesiatce) at around 30 each - 150
5 "epic" ships that themselves can;t be used in srandard play but come with upgrades that can, or contain "fixes" that render uncompetitive ships viable again - average 60 each, 300
that adds up to 1k, actually. (I don;t have a complete collection, I should add).
Say what you like about 40k and GW's pricing model, but i've never had to buy a GW kit I didn't really want just because it was the only way to get access to a particular upgrade option.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/09 17:18:49
Comparing GW's codexes to X-wings cardsets is apples to oranges. They are indeed both fruit, but taste, feel and are used very differently.
A more accurate comparison would be warmachine - you don't neeeeeed the books, but they do allow you more options. This is also how AoS rolls, and I like it a lot.
I understand the desire for a consolidation of the codex rules, but that was what the indexes did/do.
The codexes are not going to be sold/marketed as collectors items to anyone other than the players of those factions, so stating that the combined cost of all the codexes is somehow a barrier to entry is like saying you won't make yourself a Pb and J sandwhich because you don't have 32 flavors of jelly.
My orks like that crawler! Making the outer cover of the tank not flat was a very good decision
I don't get the crack by the front 3barreled gun though
Makes it look like a cyclops with the barrel of the mortar being an eye (cannot unsee)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/09 17:48:18
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Its an interesting looking thing for sure. The paint scheme and angle don't seem to be doing it any favours though. Looks like there is a fair bit of detail that's lost in all the bone white.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Considering how busy and blinged out the bloat drone is i'm surprised at the plaguecrawler. It looks like they showed a bit of restraint with it. Doesn't look like a daemon engine as I don't really see much if any fleshy parts. I kind of wish it had some ichor dripping out of cracks, a viewport or something for the pilot...maybe a little more character to it. But as it is I like it, i'll probably buy 1 or 2. Hopefully they will have a place in 750-1000 point armies cause that's my preferred pts level right now.
I'm hoping for lots of little feet rather than tracks similar to those from the community page (although I don't think they're for this, but from an AoS nurgle creature)
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
